The "REAL WORLD" is an Oxymoron...and so is EVOLUTION.

[ScottA]

This world is rather a "creation" by Him who is real.​

The "renewing of our mind" which the apostle Paul spoke of, is the need to eventually come around from thinking as the world thinks, to thinking as God thinks. Which begs the question: Which way of thinking is right, God's way, or the world's way...and what's the difference?

The difference is as different as Heaven and Earth...and as far apart as the Throne of God is from His Footstool.

A major part of the "renewing of our mind" is how we should rightly define "reality" and what is and is not "literal."

A few questions:

• Is God and His ways higher than that of the world?
• Is God the One who is perfect, or are we?
• Is the world perfect?
• Is Jesus' Kingdom of this world?
• Was God created?
• Was the world and everything in it including us created?
• Does the world have a beginning and an end?
• Does God have a beginning and an end?

Are you beginning to get the picture...that reality and what is actually literal is rather the Kingdom of God and God, rather than the world that was temporarily created but passing away?

As an example, what about the things we created, are they real or are they just created? Well, in the world where we and our creations are equally real (at least to us who are made of the same substance)--Yes. But in comparison, are we made of the same substance as God? Should we be? The bible (Jesus) says, Yes. That is why He came and told us that we need to be born [again] of the spirit of God...which is His essence rather than His substance, as matter is part of the creation and all that is passing away. And that offends some--many perhaps, and yet where is the error in any of what is stated here? There is none. Oh, there is plenty of room to make a case, it's just that it all doesn't play out when the matter of all creation passes away and all that remains is what is of God, and the bible is very clear on the essence and substance of both.

Anyway, that is not the real reason for this thread that I had in mind. Yes, there needs to be a renewing of our minds to think as God thinks as opposed to the way the world thinks. But I wanted to frame all that in something that came up in a thread about evolution...which the author doesn't want to discuss the error of. So, below is what I wrote there which may never get an answer or acknowledgment--but will help in the renewing of our mind, and our existence in this world and universe:

All of creation is not what it appears, especially to those created within it. Logic, even educated logic at the highest level, simply falls short of the information and ability needed to truthfully answer the question. Scientifically, if under that limitation, as most are, that should leave one to disqualify themselves, knowing that they cannot possibly know what they cannot study from within.

The answer rather, is only attainable from without the creation in question. That is to say, the answer must come from outside the sphere in question--and it has. And to spare all the details and going into any spiritual explanation, I will just say it:

All of creation is rather the manifestation of all that is theorized, wherein from beginning to end, those in error, fail.​

​

The point here, and then we can discuss it if you would like, is that God who we are to be born of and join before His creation comes to an end, is infinite, and all the world including us in the flesh we were born of, is finite...and separate. Moreover, God has created all this for a purpose--that purpose of revealing Himself (even in our own image)...in that "picture" I mentioned above that has us below God for the times of this world. But why? Because it also includes the revealing and manifestation of all that is evil, including that of every person. Then comes the Judgement.

Which--back to evolution--the point is...because the world was created also for the revealing of millions of individuals whose separations from God are as many as the sand on the sea shore...in the case of this created world--they're all true!

Except, they are not true with God.

 

[Robert Gwin]

This world is rather a "creation" by Him who is real.​

The "renewing of our mind" which the apostle Paul spoke of, is the need to eventually come around from thinking as the world thinks, to thinking as God thinks. Which begs the question: Which way of thinking is right, God's way, or the world's way...and what's the difference?

The difference is as different as Heaven and Earth...and as far apart as the Throne of God is from His Footstool.

A major part of the "renewing of our mind" is how we should rightly define "reality" and what is and is not "literal."

A few questions:

• Is God and His ways higher than that of the world?
• Is God the One who is perfect, or are we?
• Is the world perfect?
• Is Jesus' Kingdom of this world?
• Was God created?
• Was the world and everything in it including us created?
• Does the world have a beginning and an end?
• Does God have a beginning and an end?

Are you beginning to get the picture...that reality and what is actually literal is rather the Kingdom of God and God, rather than the world that was temporarily created but passing away?

As an example, what about the things we created, are they real or are they just created? Well, in the world where we and our creations are equally real (at least to us who are made of the same substance)--Yes. But in comparison, are we made of the same substance as God? Should we be? The bible (Jesus) says, Yes. That is why He came and told us that we need to be born [again] of the spirit of God...which is His essence rather than His substance, as matter is part of the creation and all that is passing away. And that offends some--many perhaps, and yet where is the error in any of what is stated here? There is none. Oh, there is plenty of room to make a case, it's just that it all doesn't play out when the matter of all creation passes away and all that remains is what is of God, and the bible is very clear on the essence and substance of both.

Anyway, that is not the real reason for this thread that I had in mind. Yes, there needs to be a renewing of our minds to think as God thinks as opposed to the way the world thinks. But I wanted to frame all that in something that came up in a thread about evolution...which the author doesn't want to discuss the error of. So, below is what I wrote there which may never get an answer or acknowledgment--but will help in the renewing of our mind, and our existence in this world and universe:

​

The point here, and then we can discuss it if you would like, is that God who we are to be born of and join before His creation comes to an end, is infinite, and all the world including us in the flesh we were born of, is finite...and separate. Moreover, God has created all this for a purpose--that purpose of revealing Himself (even in our own image)...in that "picture" I mentioned above that has us below God for the times of this world. But why? Because it also includes the revealing and manifestation of all that is evil, including that of every person. Then comes the Judgement.

Which--back to evolution--the point is...because the world was created also for the revealing of millions of individuals whose separations from God are as many as the sand on the sea shore...in the case of this created world--they're all true!

Except, they are not true with God.

I thought I would address your questions you posted Scott. If you would like me to expound on any let me know:

• Is God and His ways higher than that of the world?
• Yes
  
• Is God the One who is perfect, or are we?
• God, and every faithful spirit being
  
• Is the world perfect?
• No
  
• Is Jesus' Kingdom of this world?
• No
  
• Was God created?
• No
  
• Was the world and everything in it including us created?
• Yes
  
• Does the world have a beginning and an end?
• World yes, earth no
  
• Does God have a beginning and an end?
• No

 

[ScottA]

I thought I would address your questions you posted Scott. If you would like me to expound on any let me know:

• Is God and His ways higher than that of the world?
• Yes
  
• Is God the One who is perfect, or are we?
• God, and every faithful spirit being
  
• Is the world perfect?
• No
  
• Is Jesus' Kingdom of this world?
• No
  
• Was God created?
• No
  
• Was the world and everything in it including us created?
• Yes
  
• Does the world have a beginning and an end?
• World yes, earth no
  
• Does God have a beginning and an end?
• No

Except for new heavens and new earth--good!

 

[Robert Gwin]

Except for new heavens and new earth--good!

Since the earth abideth forever, and the Bible is never wrong, what do the new heavens (which is fulfilled by the way) and the new earth mean Scott?

 

[ScottA]

Since the earth abideth forever, and the Bible is never wrong, what do the new heavens (which is fulfilled by the way) and the new earth mean Scott?

This is explained by example in He who has "his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land", which is the old and the new, the world and the kingdom of God.

 

[Robert Gwin]

This is explained by example in He who has "his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land", which is the old and the new, the world and the kingdom of God.

Actually when Jehovah gave the go ahead, Michael and his angels battled with satan and the demons and cast them out of heaven, thus the new heavens since God's will was complete there. Soon Jehovah will give Jesus the go ahead to come and remove satan and the demons and all human followers of theirs from the earth, but although the Kingdom will come at that time, the new earth is not yet as satan and the demons will be released after the millennium of Christ's reign has concluded, after their permanent destruction, and Jesus hands the Kingdom over to Jehovah, we have the new earth fulfilled.

 

[ScottA]

Actually when Jehovah gave the go ahead, Michael and his angels battled with satan and the demons and cast them out of heaven, thus the new heavens since God's will was complete there. Soon Jehovah will give Jesus the go ahead to come and remove satan and the demons and all human followers of theirs from the earth, but although the Kingdom will come at that time, the new earth is not yet as satan and the demons will be released after the millennium of Christ's reign has concluded, after their permanent destruction, and Jesus hands the Kingdom over to Jehovah, we have the new earth fulfilled.

;-)

Close, but I would remind you that the Kingdom of God came beginning when Jesus came and His reign "shortly" thereafter, just as He said; and that Satan and his demons being removed began at Pentecost (one soul at a time) "but each one in his own order."

 

[Robert Gwin]

;-)

Close, but I would remind you that the Kingdom of God came beginning when Jesus came and His reign "shortly" thereafter, just as He said; and that Satan and his demons being removed began at Pentecost (one soul at a time) "but each one in his own order."

Each one in his own order is referring to anointed Christians sir, starting with Jesus. Jesus was asked if he came to install the Kingdom of God while on earth, but that was not to be the case. We are quite near to it's coming however, we have been living in the last days over a century, therefore that generation that would not perish is quite old. It is rather easy to see how things could fall apart very rapidly now, and usher us into the great tribulation.

 

[ScottA]

Each one in his own order is referring to anointed Christians sir, starting with Jesus. Jesus was asked if he came to install the Kingdom of God while on earth, but that was not to be the case. We are quite near to it's coming however, we have been living in the last days over a century, therefore that generation that would not perish is quite old. It is rather easy to see how things could fall apart very rapidly now, and usher us into the great tribulation.

Yes, which is the power of God over Satan, attained by Christ at the cross.

As for the kingdom of God and when it is come, I have quoted the verse already, and it is as it is written:

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
​

As for "the great tribulation", it is as I have told you also: That the tribulation put upon Christ at the cross, was all tribulation, the only tribulation that qualifies to be "such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." Matthew 24:21

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes, which is the power of God over Satan, attained by Christ at the cross.

As for the kingdom of God and when it is come, I have quoted the verse already, and it is as it is written:

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
​

As for "the great tribulation", it is as I have told you also: That the tribulation put upon Christ at the cross, was all tribulation, the only tribulation that qualifies to be "such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." Matthew 24:21

We disagree Scott, I understand what you are saying, but I believe that your interpretation of the passage is in error. If the Kingdom is already established, and the tribulation is over, then God forsook us sir, as the system we live in today is certainly not Jehovah's Kingdom, unless He is a really worthless god. The only thing that will settle this is the future. We believe the great tribulation Jesus referred to is very close to happening, we believe the governments through the UN will turn on false religion to start the tribulation, so if you observe this happen, it may not be too late yet Scott. Time alone is going to answer this point sir.

 

[ScottA]

We disagree Scott, I understand what you are saying, but I believe that your interpretation of the passage is in error. If the Kingdom is already established, and the tribulation is over, then God forsook us sir, as the system we live in today is certainly not Jehovah's Kingdom, unless He is a really worthless god. The only thing that will settle this is the future. We believe the great tribulation Jesus referred to is very close to happening, we believe the governments through the UN will turn on false religion to start the tribulation, so if you observe this happen, it may not be too late yet Scott. Time alone is going to answer this point sir.

I have not interpreted, but rather it has been interpreted to me, just as is the way that the church of Christ was and is to be built.

No the tribulation is not over, but you do not understand what I have been saying. The tribulation is not "over"--but rather "finished", as is the payment for sins, even for those of this time and all that remain. In this way, God has not "forsook" but has blessed us...that these tribulations we now experience are not "all" as was put upon Christ, but only our part--which He now carries with us.

As for Jehovah's Kingdom--is there not war in heaven also? Indeed, there is, and it continues until the end--which is not the end of the matter, for that End has passed. But rather the war continues until all who remain have entered into it for salvation and judgement. But you have mistaken this brilliance as evidence He is not working until the end.

Indeed, it is not too late.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I have not interpreted, but rather it has been interpreted to me, just as is the way that the church of Christ was and is to be built.

No the tribulation is not over, but you do not understand what I have been saying. The tribulation is not "over"--but rather "finished", as is the payment for sins, even for those of this time and all that remain. In this way, God has not "forsook" but has blessed us...that these tribulations we now experience are not "all" as was put upon Christ, but only our part--which He now carries with us.

As for Jehovah's Kingdom--is there not war in heaven also? Indeed, there is, and it continues until the end--which is not the end of the matter, for that End has passed. But rather the war continues until all who remain have entered into it for salvation and judgement. But you have mistaken this brilliance as evidence He is not working until the end.

Indeed, it is not too late.

When one accepts an interpretation, it becomes their interpretation sir. No there is no war in heaven, the New Heaven is now in place.

 

[ScottA]

When one accepts an interpretation, it becomes their interpretation sir. No there is no war in heaven, the New Heaven is now in place.

No, one who receives from God does not interpret, but it is God who interprets.

As for what you will and will not believe of what I have told you, I leave you to Him who told me.

 

[Robert Gwin]

No, one who receives from God does not interpret, but it is God who interprets.

As for what you will and will not believe of what I have told you, I leave you to Him who told me.

God reveals His word to His servants Scott. But on an individual level, we decide what interpretation is correct, as we have to live or die with the choices we personally make. That is why it is so important to prove to ourselves what we hear Acts 17:11

 

[Behold]

This world is rather a "creation" by Him who is real.​

The "renewing of our mind" which the apostle Paul spoke of, is the need to eventually come around from thinking as the world thinks, to thinking as God thinks. .

ScottA.

Its even more specific than your generalization.

Look at this....>Philippians 2:2-4

Its partly about living in the Love of God, outwardly as your discipleship.

But more specifically, its to see yourself as God sees you........as a "new Creation in Christ", "one with God'..... vs, seeing yourself as a saved sinner trying to be good, struggling to be like Christ.
As when you see yourself as this....>"the righteousness of God in Christ", then that is the "renewed mind". = As That MIND, is God's perspective of all the Born again.

 

[ScottA]

God reveals His word to His servants Scott. But on an individual level, we decide what interpretation is correct, as we have to live or die with the choices we personally make. That is why it is so important to prove to ourselves what we hear Acts 17:11

You are describing translation by ones own understanding and perception. That is not at all what I have been referring to, but rather what it is that God's servants the prophets were appointed to do, which is to hear and speak, adding nothing and taking nothing away.

According to your response, that makes us two different individuals. But we should not be talking about each other.

 

[Robert Gwin]

You are describing translation by ones own understanding and perception. That is not at all what I have been referring to, but rather what it is that God's servants the prophets were appointed to do, which is to hear and speak, adding nothing and taking nothing away.

According to your response, that makes us two different individuals. But we should not be talking about each other.

The account was recorded for us for a reason Scott. You and I know beyond a doubt Paul was an apostle chosen by Jesus personally, but even in that, the Beroeans did not take his words as gospel. I believe I am a Christian sent forth to teach others to observe all the things Jesus commanded, and I either am or not, but if I am a person should not take my words as being true, they must believe it themselves, prove it to themselves.

 

[Mr E]

This world is rather a "creation" by Him who is real.​

A major part of the "renewing of our mind" is how we should rightly define "reality" and what is and is not "literal."

Are you beginning to get the picture...that reality and what is actually literal is rather the Kingdom of God and God, rather than the world that was temporarily created but passing away?

If all I could see of you was your shadow-- or even if I could see you as in a mirror... would either of those 'images' be the reality of you? They would be some sort of representation of you, whether a shadow or reflection, but neither would be 'all that you are' in terms of your personhood, your thoughts or 'being.' Just a likeness of you.

When you speak in terms of what you term 'actual reality' and recognize that properly as the spiritual realm which is the greater, bigger and fuller picture, you might also recognize this world as that shadow or reflection-- that image, or likeness of the greater thing- the unseen, unknown part.

Adam, then-- is the image of the invisible God, the very likeness, shadow or reflection in the physical sense of that which is spiritual. In some manner of understanding, to see Adam is to see the Father in him. He is a representation of that One. He is not "God on earth" in the same way your shadow on the ground is not "you" yet your shadow only moves because 'you' move. It only exists because you are. That is the physical reality of a shadow-- it moves because there is something greater that created it, or it 'appears' because there is something 'other' that causes it to be seen on the ground because of the Light that shines above.

When Christ taught that the Kingdom of Heaven, or the Kingdom of God was near (at hand) and at once inside-- He was speaking of this very thing. It is not a physical kingdom, but the inner, spiritual realm and the greater, bigger and fuller reality you speak also of. It doesn't negate what we see and observe all around us. This world is a reflection of that. His prayers were that we recognize this and see the Father's kingdom come-- on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[ScottA]

If all I could see of you was your shadow-- or even if I could see you as in a mirror... would either of those 'images' be the reality of you? They would be some sort of representation of you, whether a shadow or reflection, but neither would be 'all that you are' in terms of your personhood, your thoughts or 'being.' Just a likeness of you.

When you speak in terms of what you term 'actual reality' and recognize that properly as the spiritual realm which is the greater, bigger and fuller picture, you might also recognize this world as that shadow or reflection-- that image, or likeness of the greater thing- the unseen, unknown part.

Adam, then-- is the image of the invisible God, the very likeness, shadow or reflection in the physical sense of that which is spiritual. In some manner of understanding, to see Adam is to see the Father in him. He is a representation of that One. He is not "God on earth" in the same way your shadow on the ground is not "you" yet your shadow only moves because 'you' move. It only exists because you are. That is the physical reality of a shadow-- it moves because there is something greater that created it, or it 'appears' because there is something 'other' that causes it to be seen on the ground because of the Light that shines above.

When Christ taught that the Kingdom of Heaven, or the Kingdom of God was near (at hand) and at once inside-- He was speaking of this very thing. It is not a physical kingdom, but the inner, spiritual realm and the greater, bigger and fuller reality you speak also of. It doesn't negate what we see and observe all around us. This world is a reflection of that. His prayers were that we recognize this and see the Father's kingdom come-- on earth as it is in heaven.

Yes, and it is good to get back to the "oxymoron" of this created world, and the subject of the actual "reality" of God and His kingdom.

In doing so, I would point out that in the words of Christ's prayer, "on earth as it is in heaven", "as" is key. In other words, it does not say "also"...thy kingdom come "also" in the earth, but rather that it come "as" in heaven. The point being, that the creation of the world is not an extension of God's kingdom in its physical form as it has been revealed by images in the form of matter. But rather that God is extending the pegs of His holy tent to expand His spiritual perfection where it was not; and this He has done also in such a way as to draw evil into the light, that it might be destroyed...which He has likened to "the elements of this world" which are to be dissolved with fervent heat and with fire.

Now, that seems to bring some into competition and wanting to guard what we have come to know and love of the physical world, even against the contrasting perfection that is written of God as not being flesh and blood, but being spirit and lacking nothing. To which I would submit, does not mean that the future for matter-loving men to be without, but rather that if we are included in Christ's prayer "as" becoming perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect--that we will enjoy that same ability to manifest in whatever form that perfection of God desires--just as He has shown He is capable of--again, lacking nothing except that which is evil.