The Rest of The Dead

[Base12]

It is apparent that you DO NOT understand
1 Tim. 4[1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
You are fulfilling the above prophecy!!

Whatever Earburner. If all you can do is insult me, then I'm out. When all One can do is hurl insults, the debate is over. You lost. In more ways than one.

You really need to be appreciative of the Guests that show up in "your thread" who wish to discuss Scripture in an adult manner.

...starting your own thread in another forum.

With all due Respect, that is a really disgusting thing to say to someone.

I am politely asking you...

It's obvious politeness went out the window a long time ago in this thread.

BTW, you or anyone else are always welcome to post in my threads. Whatever your hearts desire to say, I will ALWAYS be most appreciative that you decided to spend your precious time interacting with me.

I will never insult, but always debate in Love.

So in respect, I will not be posting in this thread anymore.

Base12 out.

 

[Stumpmaster]

BTW...
Mystery of Iniquity is the Biblical term for Reincarnation. Satan is Reincarnated as the Man of Sin.

Sadly, you are irrefutably in error about this, Base12. You cannot reconcile the Man of Sin(aka False Prophet/2nd beast from the earth/that Wicked) being a "reincarnation" of Satan, since the Man of Sin/False Prophet is cast into the Lake of Fire whilst Satan is bound and sealed in the Abyss for a thousand years. Following this Satan joins the other two entities already in the Lake of Fire, to be tormented day and night forever.

Rev 19:20
(20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:1-3
(1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
(2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
(3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Earburner]

Revelation 20:5
"But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

As I have already said, "the rest of the dead" in the above passage refers not to "the dead in Christ" which are with Him and is Israel, and not "the living in Christ" which Paul referred to as "those who are alive and remain" (in the world), but are the dead of the gentiles who have died believing in Christ, but also "believed a lie" (the foretold "strong delusion") that He would come again in the flesh and therefore did not receive Him in spirit when He knocked and did not let Him in.

I think that I am a little confused in your reply.
As to both Jew and gentile, I understand the " dead" as being:
Those who have died in Christ
Those who have died without Christ
But as to "the dead of the gentiles..." , I am not aware of another group. Is your perspective Amillennial or Premillennial?

 

[Nancy]

I did say it!
God's Grace and His Love is forever.
Which is to say, according to scripture, means God's Grace in the world, through His Son, could go on forever, 1000, 2000, 3000 years and on, AS LONG AS MEN shall HAVE FAITH to "believe that God is"!!
It was Jesus' concern, and WHY it is that He does NOT know the time of His return, only the Father.
Luke 18:8

It is by the Father's "Longsuffering" and "Grace" to continue seeking us out, AS LONG as men still have faith to believe" that He is". Hebrews 11:6
That is THE ONLY reason why Jesus hasn't been sent from Heaven, on His return trip, in flaming fire!
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
Time has nothing to do with it.

"and WHY it is that He does NOT know the time of His return, only the Father."
My take here is that the reason Jesus did not know is because God did not SPEAK it yet...Jesus is THE WORD of God. Just a thought

 

[Jay Ross]

Sadly, you are irrefutably in error about this, Base12. You cannot reconcile the Man of Sin(aka False Prophet/2nd beast from the earth/that Wicked) being a "reincarnation" of Satan, since the Man of Sin/False Prophet is cast into the Lake of Fire whilst Satan is bound and sealed in the Abyss for a thousand years. Following this Satan joins the other two entities already in the Lake of Fire, to be tormented day and night forever.

Rev 19:20
(20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:1-3
(1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
(2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
(3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Could I humbly suggest to you that the Book of Revelation contains a number of pictures that are scattered over the time period of the Book of Revelation that are not linearly progressive. I would suggest to you that the Book of Revelation has sections that deal with a particular person/entity such as chapter 19 that is all about Christ and his deeds, etc..

It seems to me that your understanding of the Millennium timeline is flawed based on your presentation of events in a linear manner.

Shalom

 

[ScottA]

I think that I am a little confused in your reply.
As to both Jew and gentile, I understand the " dead" as being:
Those who have died in Christ
Those who have died without Christ
But as to "the dead of the gentiles..." , I am not aware of another group. Is your perspective Amillennial or Premillennial?

My perspective is not millennial.

"The rest of the dead" does not include any of Israel. For them, "It is finished", and they are with Him as "the dead in Christ" who "proceed" "those who are alive and remain." Thus, all "the rest" that remain, are the dead of the gentiles who did not receive the promises given to Israel, nor did they receive Jesus when He came "quickly" to them in spirit (which is His second coming), and yet still receive the promise of salvation in the end for having believed in Him.

There are no other dead who shall live again.

 

[Earburner]

"and WHY it is that He does NOT know the time of His return, only the Father."
My take here is that the reason Jesus did not know is because God did not SPEAK it yet...Jesus is THE WORD of God. Just a thought

That is profoundly true!!

Now, knowing God's Longsuffering, Patience and Love (2 Peter 3:9) what situation shall eventually take place among people, of which Jesus was concerned about, proving that the Father will then, at that time, speak it to Him, to return in the fulness of His Glory from Heaven, for his people? Luke 18:8.
Please compare that with 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and
Hebrews 11:6

 

[Earburner]

^ edit: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV

 

[Stumpmaster]

It seems to me that your understanding of the Millennium timeline is flawed based on your presentation of events in a linear manner.

My understanding isn't flawed...just doesn't match the unscriptural idea that the Man of Sin is Satan himself. Certainly the coming of the M of S is after the working of Satan, but the fact remains there are three distinct individual entities who combine forces against Christ and His Saints. These three individual entities, namely Satan, the inglorious global empire of unregenerate humanity (depicted as the beast from the sea), and the False Prophet/Man of Sin (depicted as the beast from the earth), collaborate until their defeat by Christ and His army of glorified saints.

Rev 19:19-20
(19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
(20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

It's not difficult to follow the sequence of events and to be sure that those who belong to Christ also reign with Him for a specific time, after which those who do NOT belong to Christ are resurrected to face their eternal judgment of separation from Him in the Lake of Fire.

Rev 20:6
(6) Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Jay Ross]

My understanding isn't flawed...just doesn't match the unscriptural idea that the Man of Sin is Satan himself. Certainly the coming of the M of S is after the working of Satan, but the fact remains there are three distinct individual entities who combine forces against Christ and His Saints. These three individual entities, namely Satan, the inglorious global empire of unregenerate humanity (depicted as the beast from the sea), and the False Prophet/Man of Sin (depicted as the beast from the earth), collaborate until their defeat by Christ and His army of glorified saints.

My dear Stumpmaster, you stump me with your flawed mastering of the Book of Revelation and the fact that you have not put the Book of Revelation into the actual Chronological order that all the events in Revelation will occur in.

Some of the imagery in the Book of Revelation begins at the end and then travels back in time to the start of the Millennium Age. Other sections start at the beginning of the Millennium Age and unfolds in a forward progression with respect to time.

When the chronological order of the Book of Revelation is truly established correctly, it looks nothing like the order you present.

My post was aimed at your chronological order of the events that will unfold over the period of the Millennium Age. It was not addressing your theories about the wicked fallen heavenly hosts that are mentioned in the Book of Revelation.

Shalom

 

[Earburner]

My perspective is not millennial.

"The rest of the dead" does not include any of Israel. For them, "It is finished", and they are with Him as "the dead in Christ" who "proceed" "those who are alive and remain." Thus, all "the rest" that remain, are the dead of the gentiles who did not receive the promises given to Israel, nor did they receive Jesus when He came "quickly" to them in spirit (which is His second coming), and yet still receive the promise of salvation in the end for having believed in Him.
There are no other dead who shall live again.

I think what is confusing me is your concept of the dead gentiles, who did not recieve the Spirit of Christ (the second coming), and yet still recieve the promise of God's salvation in the end, for having believed in Him.
Isn't that contrary to what Jesus said in
John 3:3-8, Luke 11:13, and what Paul said in Romans 8:8-9?

 

[Nancy]

That is profoundly true!!

Now, knowing God's Longsuffering, Patience and Love (2 Peter 3:9) what situation shall eventually take place among people, of which Jesus was concerned about, proving that the Father will then, at that time, speak it to Him, to return in the fulness of His Glory from Heaven, for his people? Luke 18:8.
Please compare that with 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and
Hebrews 11:6

I'd say those who become weary in well doing, lose faith, and "fall away" from sound doctrine.

 

[Earburner]

Rev 20:6
(6) Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

BTW, is it not true, that Jesus is the First Resurrection?
And if we "hath (have) part in the first resurrection", is that not discriptive of what Peter says in 1 Peter 2 [4] Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Is that not happening NOW, when we say that "we are IN Jesus", by His Gift of the Holy Spirit?

I believe it is, that all who are in Jesus, are now participants, having part in the divine nature, who is Jesus, the First Resurrection, being Himself, "the firstborn from the dead". Colossians 1:18

 

[Earburner]

I'd say those who become weary in well doing, lose faith, and "fall away" from sound doctrine.

According to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 and Luke 18:8, there will be a definite situation that causes people to lose faith. For if that does NOT take place first, then the Lord cannot return in all His physical Glory.
I believe that the situation, that causes people to lose faith, will be the mark of the beast".

 

[Nancy]

According to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 and Luke 18:8, there will be a definite situation that causes people to lose faith. For if that does NOT take place first, then the Lord cannot return in all His physical Glory.
I believe that the situation, that causes people to lose faith, will be the mark of the beast".

I'm afraid you might be correct. This is why I do not understand why this subject is not preached...it's like the guy on top of his roof because of a flood, waiting for God to save him yet, ignores all those who God sent to rescue him and him refusing because he was "waiting" for God to save him! This is so very important, and I can see many Christians falling away, especially those with children. If our faith is not strong...

 

[Earburner]

^ Reply to Nancy, in addition:
For anyone who does take the mark of the beast, they wouldn't be following sound doctrine, as you say.

 

[Earburner]

I'm afraid you might be correct. This is why I do not understand why this subject is not preached...it's like the guy on top of his roof because of a flood, waiting for God to save him yet, ignores all those who God sent to rescue him and him refusing because he was "waiting" for God to save him! This is so very important, and I can see many Christians falling away, especially those with children. If our faith is not strong...

Amen! I agree with you whole heartily!

 

[Earburner]

In THAT moment of in time, in their moment of contemplation, they will decide for either
the wealth (worth) of Jesus,
or the worth (wealth) of the world!
Its the same old story of Esau and Jacob!
Esau gave up his "birthright" , for a morsel of food!

 

[ScottA]

I think what is confusing me is your concept of the dead gentiles, who did not recieve the Spirit of Christ (the second coming), and yet still recieve the promise of God's salvation in the end, for having believed in Him.
Isn't that contrary to what Jesus said in
John 3:3-8, Luke 11:13, and what Paul said in Romans 8:8-9?

No, not contrary at all:

John 3:3-8 does not take away what has been given them for having believed, it simply puts it off until the end.

Luke 11:13 tells of the gift that is not fully known by those who do not receive it, until the end.

Romans 8:8-9 - Indeed, it does not please God that some do not receive Him until the end, nor can He use them in the world. Nor will they be His until the end.

Nonetheless, the gentiles who do not receive the Holy Spirit until the end does not make then less; but rather it makes them equal to most of Israel, who did not receive Him when He came in the flesh, for which He prayed: "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."​

 

[Nancy]

In THAT moment of in time, in their moment of contemplation, they will decide for either
the wealth (worth) of Jesus,
or the worth (wealth) of the world!
Its the same old story of Esau and Jacob!
Esau gave up his "birthright" , for a morsel of food!

I do know so many nominal Christians, and the idea of a "rapture" seems to make them even believe they will not have to go through what is to come...that's scary as, I have family who still buy into that idea