The Restrainer. And the Restrained.

[Heart2Soul]

I would suggest they are talking of seperate events.....the question is what are they? We know that Paul in Thessalonians is speaking of Jesus second coming because there is the reference to the resurrection of Gods people and them meeting him in the air.

The text in Zechariah however where Jesus' feet touch the Mount of Olives has totally different circumstances surrounding it....the mountain splits and becomes a great plain. What do you think that plain might be for?

Anyway, I don't want to derail backlit's thread. Perhaps another one needs starting for this topic.

Go for it brother...I am open to read what you have to share.

 

[quietthinker]

Go for it brother...I am open to read what you have to share.

I have started a new thread titled 'Jesus Return...in the Air...on the Mountain'

 

[Brakelite]

Sorry, this is off topic but prophesy speaks of Jesus on the earth at His 2nd coming...
Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians says that both the resurrected dead and the living believers will be “caught up together…to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess. 4:17). Although Paul does not say what will happen next, the prophet Zechariah does: “And in that day His feet will stand upon the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,;…thus the Lord my God will come” (Zech. 14:1-5).

The passage from Zechariah certainly starts that Christ stands physically upon the Mount of Olives. But the timing is your own.
Revelation speaks of the descent of the New Jerusalem to the earth when the Zechariah text takes place... After the millennium. You are right, this is off topic and I'll be glad to discuss this on another thread but another time. There is a lot to discuss regarding the millennium, it isn't something which can be adequately and reasonably dealt with in just a few posts. But it's a good topic, and worthy of discussion sometime absolutely. I'm not dismissing it altogether.

 

[Brakelite]

Satan is not holding back Satan.

Did not Babylon for a time hold back Meda-Persia?
Did not Persia for a time hold back Greece?
Did not Greece for a time hold back Rome?
The early church fathers recognized, while living during the time of the Roman empire, that when Rome, like all powers eventually do, will "fall away", there will be another power to replace it. And in the world of politics and human affairs of the time, Paul was warning that that coming power would be the man of sin. He, and those he taught, made the connection between that man of sin and the little horn of Daniel 7:20,21. They recognised that Rome would eventually fall. Some such as Jerome, witnessed that fall. They also witnessed the wars that ensued between the various gothic tribes and nations that arise subsequent to that fall. The vacuum in Europe needed to be filled. The prophecies of Daniel revealed that through war and conquest, there would be eventually 10 horns battling for supremacy. These 10 horns however still grew from the Roman beast. They were Roman horns. As was the little horn which grew from among them. We are speaking of history that took place 1700 years ago and after. You are being too presumptive to suddenly jump 1500 years and say this pertains to today and tomorrow.

 

[Brakelite]

The Restrainer who restrains Satan and the Antichrist is none other than God the Holy Spirit: When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. (Isa 59:19)

That is a truth which generically speaking alludes to most instances. But in war and conquest, in the rise and fall of empires, this is not always so, and in the specific prophecy of Daniel and Paul, Satan is at work through all the powers of the world conniving and establishing the mystery of iniquity which covers political history and the spiritual powers of darkness of the occult and pagan anti Christ Spirit that had been around for millennia. All the empires spoken of in Daniel, and Revelation, the horns and beasts of war and predation, are Satan's creations in establishing his goals of global dominance. Praise God they are all destroyed in the end by the Rock, but the story of their rise and fall is a lesson for us today so we may recognize who our friends are, and our enemies. Please allow me time to fully explain the events of history and how Satan has used the powers that be in order to establish his rebellious stronghold.

 

[Brakelite]

So let me summarize what those early church fathers believed, and why.
First, they were basing their beliefs on what Paul had himself prophesied, which they neatly tied into the prophecies of Daniel. Daniel 2, and Nebuchadnezzar's vision of the statue, gives us the framework for all subsequent prophecy. No later revelation or prophecy will contradict Daniel's interpretation of that first vision. From his own time, Nebuchadnezzar saw 4 empires rising. Babylon. Medo-Persia. Greece. These 3 were actually named in the scripture. The 4th kingdom, represented by the iron legs, would continue all the way down through time until the end, the second coming of Christ, and the subsequent destruction of all things. But how can this be, when nearly every Bible scholar, and obviously including Paul and those he taught such as the Thessalonians, knew that 4th empire to be Rome? This explains why those early church fathers, and the Thessalonians, thought that when Rome was finished, then the end of the world had come. Which is why Paul wrote that letter, explaining that first, there would be a falling away, and then the rise of the Antichrist, all preceding the second coming. Of course Paul didn't know this reign of the Antichrist would last nearly 2000 years, but, God's word is God's word right? So. How did all this transpire?

In other words. What is the link between the pagan Roman empire which in the prophecies clearly continues from the time of Paul all the way to the second coming? Where is Rome in the 11th century? Where is Rome in the 16th century? Where is Rome, and for that matter the remnants of all the other empires as well, seeing they are all present in the first beast of Revelation 13 during all that time between Paul and today? The statue of Daniel 2 does not have a break in the legs. It changes yes, but there is no break in the stream of time over the last 2000 years. None. No gap. No space in which Rome ceased to exist and pops up later. The iron if the Roman empire continued in a mixed form, but continued without ceasing. All the way to the toes. And it's still there... In fact all the empires are still there in some form of another when Christ comes and
KJV Daniel 2:35
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

That's the big kaxillion dollar question. Where were those empires hidden during the last 2000 years?

 

[Brakelite]

I have started a new thread titled 'Jesus Return...in the Air...on the Mountain'

Cheers.

 

[CharismaticLady]

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

Do you not see the contrast between those without the seal of the Holy Spirit and those not?

God is not obligated to call mankind by way of the Holy Spirit forever. Once Christ is on the earth, all faith will be removed. God will harden their hearts like He did to Pharoah. Christ will once more walk this earth with His 144k sealed disciples reaping the harvest and sowing seed directly. So the work of the Holy Spirit will be taken away.

So will the church. We leave at the Second Coming, yet Christ remains for the final harvest.

There are people saved after the Antichrist has been revealed. Who do you think drew them if not the Holy Spirit? Who are these people? Why wasn't a strong delusion put on them? Answer: there are two groups. Do you know what the difference is scripturally?

 

[Timtofly]

Did not Babylon for a time hold back Meda-Persia?
Did not Persia for a time hold back Greece?
Did not Greece for a time hold back Rome?
The early church fathers recognized, while living during the time of the Roman empire, that when Rome, like all powers eventually do, will "fall away", there will be another power to replace it. And in the world of politics and human affairs of the time, Paul was warning that that coming power would be the man of sin. He, and those he taught, made the connection between that man of sin and the little horn of Daniel 7:20,21. They recognised that Rome would eventually fall. Some such as Jerome, witnessed that fall. They also witnessed the wars that ensued between the various gothic tribes and nations that arise subsequent to that fall. The vacuum in Europe needed to be filled. The prophecies of Daniel revealed that through war and conquest, there would be eventually 10 horns battling for supremacy. These 10 horns however still grew from the Roman beast. They were Roman horns. As was the little horn which grew from among them. We are speaking of history that took place 1700 years ago and after. You are being too presumptive to suddenly jump 1500 years and say this pertains to today and tomorrow.

The Holy Spirit works through people to hold back people. You have switched from what is being held back, to a different set of issues.

There was a little horn of Greece prior to the Romans. Two different little horns, same issue. The little horn was empowered by Satan both times.

The next time as a false prophet.

Still the holding back of the mystery of iniquity, and the setting up of the little horn are two distinct parts of Satan being exposed.

The world would be amazed if the little horn was the same Greek king, returned over 2000 years later, no? Would the Romans feel betrayed?

 

[Timtofly]

There are people saved after the Antichrist has been revealed. Who do you think drew them if not the Holy Spirit? Who are these people? Why wasn't a strong delusion put on them? Answer: there are two groups. Do you know what the difference is scripturally?

During the time of the AC, people will be saved by getting their heads chopped off, to avoid being removed from the Lamb's book of life, and being marked as belonging to the beast and Satan.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Those who refuse to follow Satan, will get their heads chopped off.

 

[Brakelite]

You have switched from what is being held back, to a different set of issues.

I am talking about the restrainer that Paul warned the Thessalonians would soon be removed, making way for the Antichrist. Paul told the Thessalonians first verbally, then again in this second letter, but didn't name it specifically having already done so. He is not talking about the little horn of Daniel 8:9. He is talking about the one Daniel wrote of in Daniel 7:25,25. The early church fathers knew who Paul was talking about. They had heard it likely first hand from those who spoke with Paul, and others later knew from earlier generations. There was never anything written by them referring to the man of sin, the son of perdition, coming as a result of the withdrawal of the holy Spirit, nor was there anything written by them suggesting that the power holding back that man of sin was anything other than pagan Rome. I have barely addressed what is being held back, desiring first to establish for certainty the identity of the actual restrainer. That power, identified by Paul, and known exclusively by the early church as being Rome. Pagan Rome was not holding back the work of God among His people. the various persecutions by the emperors only made the church stronger, and gave life to the gospel. Pagan Rome wasn't the enemy the early church feared. They could deal with that. What they were concerned about was the Antichrist. That little horn power (but still Roman) of Daniel 7 which would destroy 3 nations, was proud, arrogant, more powerful than all the others, would make war with the saints and prevail over them (vs20) , would be diverse from all the others in some way, and grow into such a power that it would evour the whole earth, something pagan Rome never did. This little horn would speak blasphemy against God, again wear out the saints, think to change times and laws (now ever power does that right, so what was so significant about this one...its talking about God's laws, and God's times), and this little horn is given even a specific lifespan. Elsewhere in scripture, that same lifespan is given to the same power going by a different name, most significantly Revelation 13:1-8.

There was a little horn of Greece prior to the Romans. Two different little horns, same issue.

That little horn you are referring to did not belong to Greece. It came out from the four winds. It is but another earlier representation of Rome. It is not Antiochus as is believed by so many, and it can be disproved to be so for many reasons.

 

[CharismaticLady]

During the time of the AC, people will be saved by getting their heads chopped off, to avoid being removed from the Lamb's book of life, and being marked as belonging to the beast and Satan.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Those who refuse to follow Satan, will get their heads chopped off.

But don't you realize those were already in the church but needed to "overcome" They weren't newly learning about Jesus.

 

[Waiting on him]

I am talking about the restrainer that Paul warned the Thessalonians would soon be removed, making way for the Antichrist. Paul told the Thessalonians first verbally, then again in this second letter, but didn't name it specifically having already done so. He is not talking about the little horn of Daniel 8:9. He is talking about the one Daniel wrote of in Daniel 7:25,25. The early church fathers knew who Paul was talking about. They had heard it likely first hand from those who spoke with Paul, and others later knew from earlier generations. There was never anything written by them referring to the man of sin, the son of perdition, coming as a result of the withdrawal of the holy Spirit, nor was there anything written by them suggesting that the power holding back that man of sin was anything other than pagan Rome. I have barely addressed what is being held back, desiring first to establish for certainty the identity of the actual restrainer. That power, identified by Paul, and known exclusively by the early church as being Rome. Pagan Rome was not holding back the work of God among His people. the various persecutions by the emperors only made the church stronger, and gave life to the gospel. Pagan Rome wasn't the enemy the early church feared. They could deal with that. What they were concerned about was the Antichrist. That little horn power (but still Roman) of Daniel 7 which would destroy 3 nations, was proud, arrogant, more powerful than all the others, would make war with the saints and prevail over them (vs20) , would be diverse from all the others in some way, and grow into such a power that it would evour the whole earth, something pagan Rome never did. This little horn would speak blasphemy against God, again wear out the saints, think to change times and laws (now ever power does that right, so what was so significant about this one...its talking about God's laws, and God's times), and this little horn is given even a specific lifespan. Elsewhere in scripture, that same lifespan is given to the same power going by a different name, most significantly Revelation 13:1-8.

That little horn you are referring to did not belong to Greece. It came out from the four winds. It is but another earlier representation of Rome. It is not Antiochus as is believed by so many, and it can be disproved to be so for many reasons.

1 Thessalonians 2:14-18 KJV
[14] For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: [15] Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: [16] Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. [17] But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire. [18] Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
Here we have the restrainer and restrained in the previous epistle Paul wrote to the born of God in thesolonica.

it’s in there if you dare to read it?

Take note of this also if you have time, how Paul states the wrath was diverted.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 KJV
[10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Past tense? Okay

 

[farouk]

Anyhow, epistle is a short read, maybe read it for yourselves and forget what man has lead you to believe….. maybe even ask God Himself, why was Paul writing to this church in the first place.

Hi @Waiting on him Some of the Epistles are indeed short but so full of meaning and pithy, right?

 

[marks]

that the power holding back that man of sin was anything other than pagan Rome.

Something I don't understand in your POV here, what exactly was being withheld?

2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

What is the "mystery of iniquity" which was working, that Rome was restraining?

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

But don't you realize those were already in the church but needed to "overcome" They weren't newly learning about Jesus.

This is a given CL; if the chronological order is misunderstood or an incorrect application is applied it ensures confusion resulting in a muddled understanding.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, that ye be not troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what with-holdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way, and then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-10

The above verses are perhaps, alongside Daniel 7 and Revelation 13, the most significant texts in the entire word of God as to revealing the identity of the Antichrist of scripture. When reading Daniel 7 and Revelation 13, and in contemplating the above, the reader cannot help but be impressed with the detail and amount of information given regarding the nature, the thoughts, beliefs and practices of this entity who from the beginnings of the Christian faith to the present time, has shed such a dark forbidding cloud over the true church. In these few short verses the apostle Paul has given his readers a clear and unambiguous signpost pointing directly to the rise of the man of sin, the son perdition. A signpost that he first revealed to the Thessalonian church in person, and reaffirmed in this letter. Bible scholars for centuries have agreed that the reason Paul was less than forthcoming in his letter in naming the ‘restrainer’ directly as he is commonly known, was because there was a very real danger involved in so doing.
So once the Thessalonians learned who this 'retainer' was, I think it obvious that such information would be shared not only with other churches and Christians outside of Thessalonica, but information that would be handed down through the generations following, with those knowing this truth looking forward to witnessing the fall, withdrawal, or removal of this entity. How can we know who it was Paul was warning about? This is the entity whose removal would introduce the Antichrist. So let us ask those who Paul spoke to, or at least those who kept that information and informed others.

Let me start with Tertullian (160-240 A. D.):

“‘For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way.’ What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon its own ruins? ‘And then shall be revealed the wicked one.”
“On the Resurrection of the
Flesh,” chapter 24; Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. III, p. 563

In yet another comment, Tertullian states: “The very end of all things threatening dreadful woes is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman Empire.”

(“Apology,” chapter 32; Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. III, p. 43).

A little later Lactantius,. in the early fourth century wrote: “The subject itself declares that the fall and ruin of the world will shortly take place; except that while the city of Rome remains, it appears that nothing of this kind is to be feared. But when that capital of the world shall have fallen, and shall have begun to be a street, which the Sibyls (Prophets) say shall come to pass, who can doubt that the end has now arrived to the affairs of men and the whole world? It is that city, that only, which still sustains all things.” (“The Divine Institutes,” book 7, chapter 25; Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. VII, p. 220).

Also early in the fourth century Cyril of Jerusalem (318-386 A. D.) had this to say: “But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman Empire shall have been fulfilled, and the end of the world is drawing near. There shall rise up together ten kings of the Romans, reigning in different parts perhaps, but all about the same time; and after those an eleventh, the Antichrist, who by his magical craft shall seize upon the Roman power; and of the kings who reigned before him, ‘three he shall humble,’ and the remaining seven he shall keep in subjection to himself.” (Catechetical Lectures,” section 15, on II Thessalonians 2:4; Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. VII, p. 108 [New York: The Christian Literature Company, 1895]).

(Author: Much could be said about this quote; he, as the others had before him, also is clearly linking the prophecy of Daniel to the text of Paul’s, agreeing with other eminent writers of his time that out of Rome would evolve ten kings, 3 of whom the antichrist would subdue. (Daniel 7:7,8) When the restrainer, Rome, was to be taken out of the way, and after the horns of Daniel 7 arise, with 3 of them destroyed, the antichrist would be revealed.)

Now Ambrose (died in 398): “After the falling or decay of the Roman Empire, Antichrist shall appear.” (Quoted in, Bishop Thomas Newton,
Dissertations on the Prophecies, p. 463)……

….and Chrysostom (died in 407): “When the Roman Empire is taken out of the way, then he [the Antichrist] shall come. And naturally. For as long as the fear of this empire lasts, no one will willingly exalt himself, but when that is dissolved, he will attack the anarchy, and endeavor to seize upon the government both of man and of God.”

“Homily IV on 2 Thessalonians 2:6-9,” Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. XIII, p. 389
[New York: Charles Scribner’s and Sons, 1905]…..

…and finally Jerome (died 420): “He that letteth is taken out of the way, and yet we do not realize that Antichrist is near.”

(Letter to Ageruchia, written about 409A. D. Letter 123, section 16; Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. VI, p. 236

Jerome’s testimony is interesting. He admits and agrees with other early church fathers of his era, on the word of the apostle Paul, that pagan Rome was the restrainer, and had been removed in his (Jerome’s) lifetime. Yet it had not yet been made apparent who the power was that could definitively be called the Antichrist. Why? Because from Jerome’s perspective, he could not see all the signs of the Antichrist’s coming, as they had yet to be revealed in history. The capital of the empire had been removed to Constantinople, and the Gothic barbarian kings were already well entrenched in ongoing battles and wars to decide who would rule over the territories not long since vacated by Rome, but the three horns to be subdued were still in power. When they were subdued, it would then be known by whose power they were done away, and the identity of Antichrist would be revealed.
Which begs the question. Considering this power we speak of, pagan Rome, was the entity the early church fathers all obviously had been told by Paul through inspiration of the Spirit, being the restrainer, why does the modern church look elsewhere for such information? Why the need for guesswork? And of course this leads to a number of other questions... But first things first.

News flash! The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.
God has restrained evil throughout history, He is in control, and allows evil for a purpose.
Jesus had to leave when He was here in order for the Holy Spirit to come. And He will not come until the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way.
The Holy Spirit has worked through the Church to restrain evil. When the Church, (Temple of the Holy Spirit), is taken up (out of the way), then evil will be unrestrained and multiplied ... be out of control. Then Satan will have full reign.

 

[quietthinker]

News flash! The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.
God has restrained evil throughout history, He is in control, and allows evil for a purpose.
Jesus had to leave when He was here in order for the Holy Spirit to come. And He will not come until the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way.
The Holy Spirit has worked through the Church to restrain evil. When the Church, (Temple of the Holy Spirit), is taken up (out of the way), then evil will be unrestrained and multiplied ... be out of control. Then Satan will have full reign.

You jump in prematurely Ronald. Allow the case to be made first ....then it mightn't be necessary to shoot from the hip.

 

[Enoch111]

News flash! The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.

I already pointed this out, but some will not accept it.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You jump in prematurely Ronald. Allow the case to be made first ....then it mightn't be necessary to shoot from the hip.

The case was made in the OP. Rome is not the Restrainer. It is bad theology. I only shot from one side of my hips, maybe I should read your posts too ... nah ...I'll pass.