The Restrainer

[bbyrd009]

I'm not sure it WAS a 'line', but the fact that any time a person places an expectant hope or speaks with excitment (both biblical expectations/requirements by the way- Titus 2:13, 2Peter 3:12, 1 Thess 4:18..and many others) about the 'appearing' of our Lord from heaven...you say it is foolishness because we are dismissing him now

ok Naomi--which btw always loved that name i know there's at least one in the Bible, and i cant recall what her story is, dangit--so are you asking me to bring the sorrow at that "excitement" up there, do you really want to...change your mind about those vv, and lose another doubting thomas? Bc you are a strong willed woman ok, and i dunno if you and i should be getting into it about "Big Emo" or expectations, or menstruations either? Bc i dunno how yet, but that black is going to start...turning gray right away see, when i um make something appear that we did not even see before, and it's just going to get lighter and lighteri guess yeh?

And the fact is, no we are not

who is "we" there, Naomi? This is not a rhetorical Q, i need to know who you are speaking for there is all, am i in that we Bc if so then ha, see. Isn't "the fact" more like as soon as a single one of "us" is revealed to be doing that, your fact becomes a lie?

I don't believe anyone here who speaks of Christ's second advent dismisses what we have now in Christ. That too is a clear biblical teaching.

so then many will cry LordLord et al, i know you're going to get infested with wolves as soon as i leave, you make them twice the sons of hell you are, these are all just bogus, or what? See i mean those too are Biblical teachings right? So what does that do to your belief up there? How does that change that belief, what i just Quoted. Again, this is not a rhetorical Q, if we are having a convo i need a reply to that. That is how to do this is that imo.

But I think the clear logical implication of what you say when you (intentionally or otherwise) mock us for 'waiting' for Christ to appear a second time, is that we are not seeing what we have now, or else you would not feel the need to constantly point out that Christ's second advent is, for want of a better phrase...bogus, and that we have the 'here and now' instead. Thus, the implication is that in focusing on the future (even though that's not strictly what we are doing), we dismiss the present.

ok again with the "we," but i'll assume the answer you give me for the we above will be the same we, ...um, all those ppl you believe will be with you, let's say? The Testifiers of Themselves? Which an aside here if you believe Scripture at few there are then assuming you are acquainted with roughly a million ppl, you will be acquainted with approx one of the other "we" right, one, but anyway i think it's clear enough that...i have no idea about Christ's second advent, particularly for anyone else, i bet prolly some ppl can literally see spirits with two eyes even, and i notice that i am directed to see with one eye but as soon as i do that then the next time i see it just fine with two eyes, it was just something i didn't recognize before, it was right there beside me the whole time, in my walk, but it just suddenly appeared!

Nice to be talking about Christ for a change though, being as how i surely hate Him no less than anyone else does, i only do that for like an hour a week or so myself. Jesus tho, give me some Jesus, i can just wait for Jesus lol.
Ppl like to wait for stuff, right
Swear to God, i still take pride in learning the most inconsequential yack lol, why does learning a fact give me so much satisfaction i wonder. I'm gonna be useless over the Doubting Thomas thing for like the next six months if i'm not careful lol. Prolly useless now i guess

so, I see another tag from you up there, but let's pause that one for now if we could ok, until "we" get some of this clarified, Bc that is predicated on this, iow descending into English for a moment i really dont think you want me turning the vv in that next post white to black yet, do you?

I mean no offense here ok, your AT of going up to heaven after you have literally died to become an immortal is...serving you right now, see, that is where you spend your hour a week, what interest do you have really in jumping or even falling off a cliff now, Naomi? Bc wadr that is what knowing for a fact that we do not yet know is going to do i guess, ok. Pitcher yourself going into your current cong as if they were...n Korea or something, behind enemy lines, no friends, no rep, can't sing When we all get to heaven, i mean do you really want that? No.

More pertinent to here though i guess is could you even accept that as a possibility? Iow can you say to me right now that when we are done with this um convo if your mind were to change and all that stuff after "pitcher" up there were to somehow happen, that would be ok with you?

 

[bbyrd009]

I see the elect as that final remnant who are sealed by the holy Spirit into truth... They are settled into truth to such an extent that they cannot and will not be moved. It is impossible that they be deceived

Love...believes all things, huh? If only it said believes there i guess lol. Anyway, ya. But for the record love does not believe all things, doesn't even make sense SiT see. Scribes

 

[Phoneman777]

I'm sorry, but...I feel like you are doing what our Dispensational friends do here and inserting a gap that the text doesn't really warrent.
Now...it sort of seems to me that the impact and informing nature of Paul's disclosure, is lessened somewhat if what he truly means is: 'the restrainer will be lifted, the AC will come and then several hundred or thousand years later, THEN the day of the Lord will come, when he will FINALLY slay him".

Actually, what Dispensationalist do is take a numerically specific time prophecy quantified by a starting/ending period of 490 years and insert a gap which changes the fixed duration of "490" to "490 plus 2,000 and counting" while still insisting it's only 490.

Imagine working for "Dispensationalism Unlimited, LLC" and returning from your noon lunch break at 5 and when your boss asks where the flip do you get off taking a 5 hour lunch, you tell him, "oh, I forgot to tell you, there's a "4 hour gap" between 12:59 and 1:00, so it's all good". It would be the first time in history where a case of Cognitive Dissonance resulted in spontaneous combustion

I'm doing nothing of the kind. No other kingdom is destroyed immediately after rising nor are any assigned a specific duration, so if we're going to be objective we can't demand any such thing with regard to the duration of Antichrist. While the ECFs may have expected it's reign to be short (who wouldn't after hearing how destructive to the body of Christ it was to be), did not the disciples get everything wrong although Jesus told them over and over what was to be?

Again, none of that changes the fact that we're not dealing with doctrinal interpretations or opinions - the "remarkable unanimity" of belief among the ECFs that transcends so much time and distance demands only the one or the other conclusion: Luciferian conspiracy or legit historical account of a core Pauline teaching of the early church. You know what I say

 

[bbyrd009]

So,
...even the elect would be deceived, if that were possible...
Matthew 24:24 Lexicon: "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
aw well dang lookie what happens when you click the link and take the effing, damned, to hell and from hell Doctor that surely scribed that puppy all up for us, huh? Only i guess it doesn't work like that right, he is not scribing in a vacuum or an empty room or anything, he is surrounded by other PhDs right? Is he blind are they all blind?

Can i get a witness? oh, guess i am being one herenow lol, yw Pm
Bc that is not what that v is saying, is it?

 

[bbyrd009]

We could look at the dark ages when in Europe under papal domination education and enlightenment was at an all time low... Yet in the East it was the Arab and Greek orthodox nations that were flourishing with advances in art, literature, poetry, architecture and science. When Catholicism entered South America the poverty and decline of those nations accelerated, and remain to this day, while in Protestant nations such as the US and Australia, NZ, and Britain and Germany etc, they flourished as they extricated themselves from Papal darkness. So for me, the evidence in reality actually indicates the opposite of what earburner is suggesting. As people came to a knowledge of God, enlightenment came with it... Both in understanding of scripture and in science and education. When Daniel said that in the last days knowledge shall increase, I am not convinced that the holy Spirit was warning us that this was an evil thing from Satan that we should beware of.

ha, you rock bl. Turning black to white right in front of my eye now, yeh?
Wanna know what the Exodus was from? Egypt was famous for its secret script that no one else could read except its priests who wrote on reeds, and if you did happen to figure out a hieroglyph Horus help you if you said it out loud in front of the wrong person too. And i guess the Sumerian>Akkadian languages weren't much better, until something happened?

Didn't the Rccs do Latin mass til like yesterday? Um, they have koolaid at their love feasts too i guess huh? :/

 

[Phoneman777]

I think to some extent, it most certainly does impact the issue. Let me remind you, you are proposing we understand a biblical text based upon the writings of those who are NOT under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This means that they make mistakes. Even on important issues, well meaning men can make mistakes.
How many people, do you think, believed in the prevailing thought that the Earth was flat and wrote accordingly?
You see...I believe ALL truly inspired teachings are those that can be confirmed by scripture. And that God, in his own wisdom, made it this way. He made it this way so that his people could read and confirm it thus, even when they were removed, either by time or location, from the direct source.
If we start relying on historical writings, no matter how much they 'agree', as 'inspired and of God'...with no scripture to back them up...then any amount of teachings throughout the ages that are clearly NOT of God could be argued to be from him, simply because a number of 'historically sound' gentlement made a claim it was.



Hmmm...again, 2 Thess 2 is fairly 'suggesty'.
But again, I suppose I'll dig into this a bit deeper with those resources brakelite has given me...


Well, to put your mind at rest, I'm not a futurist. But, I do see evidence for a personable AC. But yes, I expect he will come with a system/governemnt, etc. But, as I said to brakelite, the two are inevitably entwined. There's always a guy at the top. In your case, it'd be the Pope. But the Pope doesn't get his 'platform' without the RCC...if you catch my drift.
However...I'm not sure we necessarily disagree. You would say that they 'system' of the RCC (probably not how you term it all, sorry) is 'Antichrist'...with multiple 'Popes'. I would say that John tells us that many antichrists will come, but we can expect a final one...a final push of greater evil just before Christ returns.
Of course, as I currently sit, I'd say that many other systems/people fit the category of 'antichrist' down through the years...not just various Popes. Scripture tells us anyone who denies Christ came in the flesh is one.
To be perfectly honest though...I don't have a really nailed down doctrine of AC. Probably because I feel we can't know who it will be until he comes upon the scene. Perhaps that's wrong of me...I don't know.



Sure maybe. But...maybe not. Again...my point really lies in the fact that I'm just not comfortable arriving at a decision based upon guesswork or assumption, and then slotting it into my biblical understanding. Usually I like to work the other way around...


Well...putting a gap in the text is reading into it as well. I will grant you it doesn't outright state the Man of Lawlessness 'arises' just before Christ's coming. But it also doesn't state there will be a time period inbetween the two either.
So...we are at an impasse!


Here's what I don't particularly understand about your reasoning...God's control and timing are upon everything. That is sort of the point of the passage, isn't it? So...regardless of who the restrainer is; be it an agent of good or bad (and again, the passage doesn't specify either way to solve this conundrum between us!), we are to be encouraged anyway. The book of Revelation is very similar. The people of God are martyred...and yet, through our persistence even in trial, we triumph! That IS the encouragement.

What we must do to properly identify the Antichrist is start from the beginning. The first appearance of the figure we know as "Antichrist" goes all the way back to the days of Babylon and is said to happen in the description of the "Little Horn" of Daniel 7 which will arise among the Ten Horns that arose out of the ashes of the fourth kingdom, the fallen Roman Empire. Right away, we can see the papacy as the prime "religio-political" candidate for the Antichrist and the evidence confirming it in the rest of Scripture is plenteous.

This was solid Biblical Protestant doctrine for over 300 years (more "remarkable unanimity") and is what prompted the Jesuits to introduce to the world for the first time (despite the erroneous extrapolations of ECF writings by CI) the idea of a "7 last years of trib" Antichrist, for obvious reasons.

The fact that the ECFs wrote what they did about the Restrainer is just another piece of corroborating evidence, while Futurists can't point to a single example of church teaching that the Restrainer is an agent of holiness.

 

[bbyrd009]

It seems to me that the implication here is that it is NOT possible for the elect to be lead astray

...until you strip out that Dr Scribe guy anyway, yeh.

Lex will not lie to you, like him
you have been lied to your whole life, i might lie to you too, but Lex does not lie, or repeat lies like we do, Naomi. but it is your soul, to do with as you like

 

[CoreIssue]

The point I am making is that when I was tempted by Satan, he was not "shut up" in Hell. He is still roaming the earth tempting people. This is my personal proof we are NOT in the Millenium:

1) Because Satan is not shut up, locked in Hell, but is roaming the earth tempting myself and other people
2) Because Jesus Christ is not on the Earth, ruling, but is in Heaven at God's Right hand.

Satan is still the God of this world, still roaming the earth, still the prince of power of the air, and he has been allowed this freedom from the Resurrection of Christ until today. When Jesus Christ returns, Satan will be locked in Hell for 1,000 years unable to roam the earth and tempt people. That has never occurred since the Resurrection of Jesus Christ until now.

Well said.

Satan will not be restrained until second coming.

Christ will not walk the earth again until the second coming.

Amillennialist, such as Catholics, believe the MK is spiritual and now. And that they are God's representatives on the air ruling the MK.

Then you get into cult beliefs that mix all the different beliefs together. Jehovah witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists have really strange beliefs in this arena.

As a literal Bible only believer, we collide often.

It is all complicated by the love and kisses groups that do not want to say anyone is wrong except for people like me.

Angels and Demons are active on the earth.

Gifts of the Holy Spirit are still at work, but as the Bible describes them, not like many claim.

The rapture has to be close.

 

[CoreIssue]

What we must do to properly identify the Antichrist is start from the beginning. The first appearance of the figure we know as "Antichrist" goes all the way back to the days of Babylon and is said to happen in the description of the "Little Horn" of Daniel 7 which will arise among the Ten Horns that arose out of the ashes of the fourth kingdom, the fallen Roman Empire. Right away, we can see the papacy as the prime "religio-political" candidate for the Antichrist and the evidence confirming it in the rest of Scripture is plenteous.

This was solid Biblical Protestant doctrine for over 300 years (more "remarkable unanimity") and is what prompted the Jesuits to introduce to the world for the first time (despite the erroneous extrapolations of ECF writings by CI) the idea of a "7 last years of trib" Antichrist, for obvious reasons.

The fact that the ECFs wrote what they did about the Restrainer is just another piece of corroborating evidence, while Futurists can't point to a single example of church teaching that the Restrainer is an agent of holiness.

The Bible speaks for itself and that issue.

The only person who can be the restrainer is the Holy Spirit.

You depend on Ellen G White, a founder of the SDA.

The Bible says a female prophet must be under the headship of the male. The SDA made her the the head and arbitrator of biblical truth.

That is why the SDA is a cult.

 

[CoreIssue]

Seventh day Adventism

 

[Phoneman777]

So,
...even the elect would be deceived, if that were possible...
Matthew 24:24 Lexicon: "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
aw well dang lookie what happens when you click the link and take the effing, damned, to hell and from hell Doctor that surely scribed that puppy all up for us, huh? Only i guess it doesn't work like that right, he is not scribing in a vacuum or an empty room or anything, he is surrounded by other PhDs right? Is he blind are they all blind?

Can i get a witness? oh, guess i am being one herenow lol, yw Pm
Bc that is not what that v is saying, is it?

They'd just argue that "if" is used not to establish any vulnerability on the part of the elect ("preservation of the saints") but to emphasize the exceptional deceptive ability of their enemies...ain't it just cool how we can make the Bible conform to our fancy acronyms? I got a few suggestions for their pretty little garden:

Rose:
Ridiculously
Obnoxious
Scripture
Exegesis

Iris:
I
Really
Is
Special

Tansy:
Theos
Ain't
Never
Selecting
You

Rhododendron:
(somebody else figure that one out)

 

[CoreIssue]

They'd just argue that "if" is used not to establish any vulnerability on the part of the elect ("preservation of the saints") but to emphasize the exceptional deceptive ability of their enemies...ain't it just cool how we can make the Bible conform to our fancy acronyms? I got a few suggestions for their pretty little garden:

Rose:
Ridiculously
Obnoxious
Scripture
Exegesis

Iris:
I
Really
Is
Special

Tansy:
Theos
Ain't
Never
Selecting
You

Rhododendron:
(somebody else figure that one out)

Ironic you talking about the elect being deceived when you are the member of a cult headed by a false prophetess.

 

[CoreIssue]

I see the elect as that final remnant who are sealed by the holy Spirit into truth... They are settled into truth to such an extent that they cannot and will not be moved. It is impossible that they be deceived..
However, whether those who are excluded in the final analysis as not coming out of Babylon are merely 'dabblers', I would dispute to some extent. I think those deceived would include many who are absolutely committed and not just dabbling... One of the cheif characteristics of being deceived is not knowing you are deceived. They can be totally and fully committed to a lie.
For example, would you say Marymog or BreadofLife are just 'dabbling'?

Final remnant? Revelation does not say there are not Jews that have turned Christ. It says they are the chosen.

You were trying to spin them into 144,000 coming out of Roman Catholicism. But they are Jews no connection to Roman Catholicism.

More SDA false teaching.

 

[Phoneman777]

The only person who can be the restrainer is the Holy Spirit.

Where does it say that? In your NASB - New American Subjectivity Bible?

The Bible has many examples of non-agents of holiness restraining/overthrowing God's enemies and even His own rebellious people at times.

You depend on Ellen G White, a founder of the SDA.

I've not based a single proposition on the writings of EGW. Your credibility has just dropped from ZERO to negative integer.

The Bible says a female prophet must be under the headship of the male. The SDA made her the the head and arbitrator of biblical truth. That is why the SDA is a cult.

That is patently false. She never held a single position of authority nor acted in any way contrary to the Biblical example of such.

The 2,300 Days include the period of rise of the "king of fierce countenance" which period began after the fall of the he-goat Greece - according to Daniel himself. It's too bad Daniel isn't alive today so that he could correct his errors that you have so generously pointed out.

 

[Phoneman777]

Ironic you talking about the elect being deceived when you are the member of a cult headed by a false prophetess.

I see the diploma awarded you by the school which taught you your Jesuit eschatological ideas has also taught you how to deal with those before whom you appear to be the intellectual weakling you are: ad hominem, false characterization of facts, etc.

You are following what Alexander Hislop says adopted the most ancient Sun worship sex cult of all time - Roman Catholicism - by virtue of your promotion of their take on end time prophecy, about which you somehow believe they are spot on accurate when they've totally dropped the ball on every single other Biblical doctrine there is, including the most elementary of all: salvation by grace through faith, not works. Say "hi" to Jorge for me.

 

[CoreIssue]

I see the diploma awarded you by the school which taught you your Jesuit eschatological ideas has also taught you how to deal with those before whom you appear to be the intellectual weakling you are: ad hominem, false characterization of facts, etc.

You are following what Alexander Hislop says adopted the most ancient Sun worship sex cult of all time - Roman Catholicism - by virtue of your promotion of their take on end time prophecy, about which you somehow believe they are spot on accurate when they've totally dropped the ball on every single other Biblical doctrine there is, including the most elementary of all: salvation by grace through faith, not works. Say "hi" to Jorge for me.

I am following history and the Bible.

Your SDA nonsense about the Jesuits is simply a lie invented by probably Ellen G White.

I most assuredly am not promoting Catholicism or a millennialism.

I am a literal Bible only nondenominational. I am a pre-tribulationists.

If you've read all the material I have posted there is no way you could have made the claims you just did honestly.

 

[bbyrd009]

They'd just argue that "if" is used not to establish any vulnerability on the part of the elect ("preservation of the saints") but to emphasize th

Can't do that if you click the link tho see, no If in there!
NASB Lexicon
NASB © Greek Strong's Origin
"For FALSE Christs ψευδόχριστοι
(pseudochristoi) 5580: a false Christ or Messiah from pseudés and Christos
and false prophets ψευδοπροφῆται
(pseudoprophētai) 5578: a false prophet from pseudés and prophétés
will arise ἐγερθήσονται
(egerthēsontai) 1453: to waken, to raise up a prim. verb
and will show δώσουσιν
(dōsousin) 1325: to give (in various senses lit. or fig.) redupl. from the root do-
great μεγάλα
(megala) 3173: great a prim. word
signs σημεῖα
(sēmeia) 4592: a sign from the same as sémainó
and wonders, τέρατα
(terata) 5059: a wonder, marvel a prim. word
so ὥστε
(ōste) 5620: so as to, so then, therefore from hós and te
as to mislead, πλανᾶσθαι
(planasthai) 4105: to cause to wander, to wander from plané
if εἰ
(ei) 1487: sometimes used with a command or as an indirect question, etc.) a prim. particle; if, whether (a cond. part. introducing circumstances nec. for a given proposition to be true
possible, δυνατόν
(dunaton) 1415: strong, mighty, powerful from dunamai
even καὶ
(kai) 2532: and, even, also a prim. conjunction
the elect. ἐκλεκτούς
(eklektous) 1588: select, by impl. favorite from eklegó

Ok i lied, there is an If, but it has been changed around in the NASB trans...wait, brb. Ok no, the NASB follows the Lex pretty close this time, but reading the v in it gives a completely diff sense imo than in most other trannies? Which go out of The Way to make it sound impossible?

 

[CoreIssue]

Where does it say that? In your NASB - New American Subjectivity Bible?

The Bible has many examples of non-agents of holiness restraining/overthrowing God's enemies and even His own rebellious people at times. I've not based a single proposition on the writings of EGW. Your credibility has just dropped from ZERO to negative integer. That is patently false. She never held a single position of authority nor acted in any way contrary to the Biblical example of such.

The 2,300 Days include the period of rise of the "king of fierce countenance" which period began after the fall of the he-goat Greece - according to Daniel himself. It's too bad Daniel isn't alive today so that he could correct his errors that you have so generously pointed out.

That is nonsense.

The Bible speaks of a single restrainer.

The restrainer has to be everywhere and with the power to restrain anywhere.

No one but the Holy Spirit fits the requirements.

And I do not believe you have not gotten your beliefs from SDA doctrine which came from Ellen G White.

 

[bbyrd009]

Ironic you talking about the elect being deceived when you are the member of a cult headed by a false prophetess.

? you are not deceived? Not in a cult, you don't think?
hmm
may i ask do you consider yourself "elect?"
ty

 

[CoreIssue]

? you are not deceived? Not in a cult, you don't think?
hmm
may i ask do you consider yourself "elect?"
ty

Elect means saved/born again.

Yes, I am elect but nothing special.