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Featured The Restrainer

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Naomi25, May 3, 2019.

  1. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    do you happen to know what Didymus reps?
    interesting connection, but does not reply to the post, either Q in the post, why not?

    How do you think...arg, how do you think the episode of Jesus literal hands being nailed to the cross--that you can't find, Bc it doesn't exist, not an accident, surely--might relate to nailing handwriting to His cross?

    you might note that you are invoking Thomas...in a way that would surely make him turn over in his grave, so to speak? Thomas required evidence, and would not have faith based upon the word of even an Apostle, nor would he even trust his Two Eyes, see, and put my finger into the print of the nails, which "hand" is not so hard but "finger" maybe takes...a minute, fingers do a couple diff things, so what root for finger there, hmm, but the point right now is wouldnt ol' Thomas--the only Thomas in the Bible btw, wasn't even a name then!--maybe be um looking at that askance?

    i'd like to...ha, but i simply can't right now, here. You would think i was lying, and that interp virtually requires two who can hear at least enough to develop some of the finer points. Kind of like maybe the reveal up there on invoking Thomas, which btw i know yours is generally accepted, etc, even encouraged in a literal reading.

    But...that reveal is an obvious one, as soon as someone else points it out, see, which i first heard it the exact same way you are, by saying what you just said. But the other one is um just on a diff level, and believe it or not we have not even started on the thrusting fingers into sides and putting fingers into nail-prints...you just wouldn't "believe" me, and i wouldn't blame you. Thomas means Twin (tome, cutting, cleaving; atom)

    "
    ...because of his dubiosity about his colleagues' enthusiasm concerning the resurrected Christ, tradition has dubbed him Doubting Thomas. What tradition was slow to pick up on is that Thomas was under standing orders by Christ to not believe when people reported a Messiah sighting (MATTHEW 24:23-26).

    When Jesus shows himself to Thomas too, he doesn't in any way rebuke him but calls him blessed for having seen him (JOHN 20:29). Jesus also calls blessed those who somehow believe in him through a process that involves experiencing him but not seeing him. It has nothing to do with believing enthusiastic folks who spread rumors..." via the Abarim
     
  2. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    Did He look the same? The woman at the tomb didn't recognize Him. She DID, however, think He was a human.
     
  3. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    OK, I and most here agree with that, but how is
    the latter part interpreted as literal, according to how WE account time?
    2 Peter 3[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that
    one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and
    a thousand years
    [is] as one day.
     
  4. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    IOWs, to God, 24 hours is as 1000 years, and 1000 years is as 24 hours.
    What exactly is the Holy Spirit saying about "time" from God's perspective?
    .
    So then, according to 2 Peter 3:8, will the popular belief of a Millennium be for a literal thousand years, or will it be for a literal 24 hours?
     
  5. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    Nice that we can discuss this peaceably - it's evidence that the Holy Spirit is at work. I would say that I don't think you're being fair to say "they wrote something". "They" were men separated by vast time and distance, and the "something" they wrote was an unbelievably unanimous teaching despite that separation. Warrants - even demands - our investigation.
    Is not whatever Paul told them worthy to be regarded as equal to "Scripture" while not actually Scripture? Paul always clarified what was his opinions and what was "thus saith the Lord" and what he said about the Restrainer ain't opinion.
    The remarkable unanimity can only be attributed to either a Luciferian conspiracy or a genuine Pauline teaching that spread abroad. We're far beyond the scope of mere coincidence.
    We're not to understand that, and the text in Thess. doesn't demand that - no time frame from "revealed" and "destroy with the brightness of His coming".
    Again, no problem because the Antichrist arose and is yet among us, and will continue to be here until Jesus comes, just like the text says.
    Doctrinal differences and infallibility don't impact this issue - the issue is "historical account", namely, did these men accurately record the prevailing wisdom of their day and what cause is it for the fact that despite all that time and distance, they wrote as with one voice. Either Luciferian conspiracy or an inspired teaching that was carefully spread abroad so as to preserve it intact - something we'd not expect of the mere opinion of an individual leader somewhere.
    No mistake has been made because Jesus hasn't return to destroy the papal Antichrist yet - we can't use a yet unfulfilled prophecy to disprove precursors to it. To the contrary, since the "little horn" Antichrist was prophesied to arise after the fall of Rome - and since the papacy fits all the identifying marks in prophecy of the Antichrist - any attempt to look for a Restrainer AFTER the rise of the papacy can only lead to an erroneous conclusion. Sure, if there was a Scripture support Jesuit Futurism's claim of the rise of an Antichrist which immediately precedes the Second Coming, I'd agree with you. There just isn't.
    The Antichrist isn't a "person", it's a "KINGDOM", as evidenced by several passages of Scripture. It's not sound exegesis to attempt the establishment of Jesuit Futurism by making a singular verse that calls the Antichrist "man of sin" and "son of perdition" overthrow the overwhelming testimony of Scripture that it is a KINGDOM...especially when "son of perdition" is meant to parallel the nature of Antichrist with Judas - who arose within but apostatized - and "man of sin", which is just as easily understood to mean a multiplicity of sinful leaders of an apostate kingdom (popes) as is Paul's use of "man of God" in 2 Timothy 3:16 which is without doubt a reference to a multiplicity of genuine Christian church leaders, not just one single man. [/QUOTE] Well...I'm afraid that does't make much sense to me! Paul could have any number of reasons for not stating outright, either way. And, had he wanted to refer to to Rome but not outrightly, he could still have done it in many different ways as well. He could have refered to it as the 'current earthly power', or, as Peter did, Babylon. [/QUOTE] Again, Paul never failed to declare the power of God to pagans, be they kings or commoners, but he was too sheepish write about it to his own? "Current earthly power" is just as head roll worthy as "Roman Empire". The reason Paul didn't have to use codes like Peter is that Paul already told them who it was, so he just needed to remind them if somehow they'd forgotten such a startling revelation.
    That's reading into it - the text gives no definitive time period between fall of Restrainer/rise of Antichrist and the Second Coming, but only that it will be around at the time of His coming, which after almost 1,500 years, we have no reason to doubt it won't be.
    No, Paul greatly encouraged the early church, but if the Restrainer was truly an agent of holiness, think of the countless generations who, by his silence, he deprived of such encouraging truth about the Restrainer (that despite the enormous suffering and persecution of God's people, God's "agent of holiness" has His celestial boot firmly on the neck of Antichrist)???
     
  6. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    If you can't accept the eye witness of Thomas, is anyone else's any better?
     
  7. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    um, can't accept the eyewitness yadayada for what? Christ's Ascension? Certainly, but that does not mean that you are "going" somewhere that your vision could see on a material plane, Eb, like you are requiring must be true as a starting premise, right

    Just as there is no Doubting Thomas, even though the passage strongly invites that perspective at first, White is going to turn to black when you start digging imo ok. You cannot Quote "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" even though there are a quarter million hits for that in search.

    this is trying to divine the future, you say that tomorrow you will go to such and such a place. We do not yet know what we will become. On and on. The kingdom simply does not come by observation; if your right eye offends you, pluck it, bc there is only One Immortal, not even Two. Where I am, you will be also. You and your sons will be here with me, all go to the same place, no one knows where they go when they die, and no Son of Man may die for another's sins.

    That's right, every, single premise we are taught to ride on is crap. If you are waiting for the by-and-by for the sweet, When we aaallll get to heaven, and waiting for it is finished to do something else for us in order for our wedding to commence, then we are not understanding that all is lacking is prepared bride.



     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  8. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    now we can lean on that ceremonial dunking party our whole lives and sing when we all get to heaven with everybody else and pray a lot while we dig a ditch for others to fall into, or we can start walking and find the baptisms three, 1 down two to go, and the ritual one isn't even counted ok, when you have undergone a baptism you are going to have to have a little lie-down after lol, and i am vastly under-reporting, even the baptism cliche will attest to that imo. If you want the baptism of the spirit you have been given direct instructions to follow as a believer for that, and i don't mean the synopsis ones they repeat at that ritual, which isn't counted, no matter what any guy in a suit that you are giving money to is telling you. You are not going to sleep for 3-5 days after a baptism of Spirit, and then you are going to learn...more about tongues, that's for sure, and the baptism of fire, well, Jesus ppl, don't you know that there is no greater sacrifice than that a man give up his life for his friends. Ask Kaepernick or King or JFK ororor about that one i guess. All of them chose their deaths, and we are free to choose ours
    And yes i know Kaepernick is in a diff physical state currently than the other two, but i am talking about a diff state, his standing with the world. He is dead to the world right
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  9. brakelite

    brakelite Guest

    Apparently it is displayed in the papal museum in the Vatican and is the crest of GregoryVIII
    . Google Image Result for http://www.aviewoncities.com/img/rome/sveit0485s.jpg
    Here's another one from inside St Peter's Basilica
    Google Image Result for https://previews.123rf.com/images/billperry/billperry1708/billperry170800031/84457648-angels-golden-dragon-ceiling-saint-peter-s-basilica-vatican-rome-italy-vatican-and-ceiling-built-in-.jpg

    That last pic, I know they call them angels, but let's get real. They are naked babies right?
     
  10. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure it WAS a 'line', but the fact that any time a person places an expectant hope or speaks with excitment (both biblical expectations/requirements by the way- Titus 2:13, 2Peter 3:12, 1 Thess 4:18..and many others) about the 'appearing' of our Lord from heaven...you say it is foolishness because we are dismissing him now. And the fact is, no we are not. I don't believe anyone here who speaks of Christ's second advent dismisses what we have now in Christ. That too is a clear biblical teaching.
    But I think the clear logical implication of what you say when you (intentionally or otherwise) mock us for 'waiting' for Christ to appear a second time, is that we are not seeing what we have now, or else you would not feel the need to constantly point out that Christ's second advent is, for want of a better phrase...bogus, and that we have the 'here and now' instead. Thus, the implication is that in focusing on the future (even though that's not strictly what we are doing), we dismiss the present.
     
  11. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I...would have thought this self-evident, really. Those of us who have been redeemed by his blood.

    Okay, I'll throw some bible verses at you. I doubt you'll take them at face value, but ultimately, that's not on me:


    and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. -1 Thessalonians 1:10

    so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, -1 Corinthians 1:7

    Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, -2 Thessalonians 2:1

    And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. -2 Thessalonians 2:8

    But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, -Philippians 3:20

    so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. -Hebrews 9:28

    waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, -Titus 2:13

    For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:15–18

    so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. -Luke 17:30

    waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! -2 Peter 3:12




    Keep in mind, of course, that all these Epistles were written well after Christ's first advent and his shedding of blood and the making of a way for salvation. And that these letters were being written to Churches...believers. So...they had already accepted Christ. So...if these references aren't about his first advent, and they aren't talking about the moment of salvation for believers, but something...beyond that....what do you see the clear and obvious intent of the writters being?
    Also, here are some verses in regards to the promises of things to come:

    For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. -Romans 8:22–25

    But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

    So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. -1 Corinthians 15:42–43

    I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
    “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

    “O death, where is your victory?
    O death, where is your sting?” -1 Corinthians 15:50–55

    Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
    And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” -Revelation 21:1–5

    And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. -Revelation 21:22–23
     
  12. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Well...I can agree that a counterfeit scenario would most likely come into play here, but I have a question in regards to your idea of 'stripping away those loyal to the throne'. In Matthew 24:24 it says:

    "For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

    It seems to me that the implication here is that it is NOT possible for the elect to be lead astray, although it is a close thing, had it not been for the grip of grace Christ has on his people, which is stronger than any deception Satan might bring to bear.
    Isn't it more feasible to think that this deception works on those who...mmm...dabble? I suppose you could call them nominal Christians, but ultimately they would be those who 'seem' like Christians...go to Church, talk the talk, enjoy the 'fellowship', etc, but within their hearts, they do not belong to Christ...the seed of rebellion is there. Thus they are not protected against deception, because in truth, they want what Satan is selling...to not submit to Christ and God Almighty.



    Well...I promise to withhold opinion on the matter until I dig into those resources you recommeded!
     
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  13. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not misunderstanding 1 Peter 5, but I think you might misundertand me.
    Let me ask you something: In Matt 12:28 and Luke 10:18 we see two things: the first is this: Christ informs the Pharisees that they see what they do in him (the casting out of demons) because the Kingdom has come, and that in order for a person to 'rob a strongmans house, you must first bind the strongman'. The clear reference here is that Christ has authority on earth because he has 'bound' Satan...the strongman.
    The second verse sees Christ telling his disciples that they have authority over serpants and "all the power of the enemy", as he saw 'Satan fall like lightning', and that "nothing shall hurt them".
    Now...we know for a historical fact, and from other biblical passages, that when Christ told them that 'nothing shall hurt you', he was not, clearly, talking of physical harm. Right? All except John died a horrible martyrs death for their faith. And yet we have clear teachings that even if the body was killed, the soul would be safe in Christ.
    Thus we start to get to the meat of things here. When Jesus 'bound' Satan so he could 'plunder' his house...it wasn't so his Christians could march forth and not be touched. It wasn't so that Satan couldn't touch a hair on our heads. No...it was so the gospel of Jesus Christ would grow throughout the world and Satan couldn't do a thing to stop it. His lies would be useless in this regard. Pointless, useless, empty...bound.
    But does this mean he doesn't attempt to outright kill us? You better believe he does. We know he does, even during Christ's time when Matt 12 outright tells us he has been 'bound' for the plundering to occur...Christ himself is killed...the Apostles are killed.
    Again, let me remind you that Rev 20 does NOT say that Satan can not kill the members of Christ's body. It just says he is refrained from decieving. Again, that means what Jesus points out in Matt 12....the Kingdom WILL advance...as it has.
     
  14. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Ah. And men's evil hearts desire vaccines and education for all.
    I'm sorry...I just wonder....do your realise that most of the advancements in technology have stemmed from the fact that Christians pushed for education for all, caring for the sick, treating everyone equally....? That the most 'advanced' societies of this world were founded on Christian values and built up on them.
    Now, sure, plenty of 'unChristian' people within those societies have taken these things and run...a long way, and part of that is because as Christians we believe in freedom of expression and practice...for all.
    I just think you are barking up the wrong tree. Mostly because I cannot see any biblical evidence for what you are saying.
    And I'm not sure I see Matt 16 as evidence that Satan is using technology. That Satan temps, and that man is greedy, prideful and selfish...sure. But technology? Sorry...not seeing it.
     
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  15. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Well, to be fair, Rev 20 is the only place in scripture that outright mentions the 1000 years, which is not, strictly, enough to build a whole doctrine on, and yet that's what we see plenty of people doing, no matter their ideas on the Millennium. So, regardless where one lands on this issue, people are all taking verses that do or don't mention the 1000 years, and applying them to that time. The real question is, why, and is the particular verse or passage they apply TO that time, valid or not?


    Well, while that verse is most certainly used to show that God views time differently, that's not really why or how Amillennialist are trying to put their point across. What we are trying to emphasise is that we let scripture interpret scripture...not that we try and view time as God does.
    In scripture numbers are often used symbolically. That includes the number 1000. It's not just us who randomly go "oh...I don't want to have a future 1000 years, so I'm going to smoosh that number around until it means something that is not actually 1000 years". No...we look at how scripture itself uses numbers, included 1000. We look at passages that talk about the various 'ages' that we can expect; 'this age' and 'the age to come'. We look at passages that speak of Christ's return; when, how, what happens in conjuction with...etc. And we look at genre.
    So...if the genre tells us its strictly a letter, or historical. And other scripture tells us every number is always an exact representation, and other passages lead us to expect a 'middle age' before the eternal age, and that after Christ's return there will be a time period on the earth before all things are made new...then yes...we would read Rev 20 and see the 1000 years as being exactly that; a literal 1000 years.
    But the fact is, when we take all those things into consideration, and carefully consider them...they actually point to exactly the opposite.
     
  16. brakelite

    brakelite Guest

    I see the elect as that final remnant who are sealed by the holy Spirit into truth... They are settled into truth to such an extent that they cannot and will not be moved. It is impossible that they be deceived..
    However, whether those who are excluded in the final analysis as not coming out of Babylon are merely 'dabblers', I would dispute to some extent. I think those deceived would include many who are absolutely committed and not just dabbling... One of the cheif characteristics of being deceived is not knowing you are deceived. They can be totally and fully committed to a lie.
    For example, would you say Marymog or BreadofLife are just 'dabbling'?
     
  17. brakelite

    brakelite Guest

    We could look at the dark ages when in Europe under papal domination education and enlightenment was at an all time low... Yet in the East it was the Arab and Greek orthodox nations that were flourishing with advances in art, literature, poetry, architecture and science. When Catholicism entered South America the poverty and decline of those nations accelerated, and remain to this day, while in Protestant nations such as the US and Australia, NZ, and Britain and Germany etc, they flourished as they extricated themselves from Papal darkness. So for me, the evidence in reality actually indicates the opposite of what earburner is suggesting. As people came to a knowledge of God, enlightenment came with it... Both in understanding of scripture and in science and education. When Daniel said that in the last days knowledge shall increase, I am not convinced that the holy Spirit was warning us that this was an evil thing from Satan that we should beware of. No doubt advances in technology have been used for....
     
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  18. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Well...do unto others, really. We always want others who don't agree with us to consider what we write or at the least disagree peaceably, so I try to...even though I don't always suceed!
    I wasn't trying to be unfair when I said that they 'wrote' something...after all, they did! The written word can be a power, powerful thing, as we know. All I am attempting to do is put some necessary distance between what men...even the best of them...and God, has written.
    Because we must acknowledge that even very intelligent, well intentioned men, can be both influenced or make mistakes.
    Now...am I saying that the matter is NOT worth 'investigation'? Certainly not! And I have promised brakelite to do just that. But I am saying that unless a persons...or many persons...writings line up with scripture, we must be both cautious and wise in how we view them.

    I am sure what Paul taught them was correct...after all he tells us that Christ himself taught him, after he'd received the Holy Spirit...that put him on a different playing field. However...scripture simply does NOT mention what Paul taught. And assuming that what the ECF put down to BE that teaching is not wise practice.
    You may, after much careful study and praying, arrive at a conclusion you believe to be the truth...that is your right. But we still may not claim it to be on a level of certainty and canon like what we have from scripture. It will always remain 'probable' or 'likely'. Labelling it 'taught from scripture and therefore absolutely true' should not be considered.

    While, yes, it could be either of those things, they are not exclusively the only reasons for a majority of the ECF believing the Roman Empire to be the restrainer.
    The cultural times and climate we live in can change our preconception more than we realise. Remember when the Disciples asked Jesus about his comment about the temple being destroyed? They automatically assumed that that event would also be the 'end of the age and his return'. You see, they couldn't concieve of a time where God would allow Jerusalem and the temple to fall, be captured and his people dispersed...not after the promised return after the first exile. Not after the Messiah had stood before them. They had a presupposition that if Jerusalem and the temple went...then that was it.
    Likewise today, we see many Americans assume that the USA will be the world superpower forever. What could topple her? If you suggested to an American that the White House was in rubble, or New York gone, they would think it was the end of the world. Surely if America is 'down', everyone else has to be too.
    The ECF dwelled in a time where the RE was supreme. It stretched further than any Nation had ever conquored. It was unstoppable. Not only militarily, but also it's contruction program, it's laws and civics. For another power to rise...one that could dominate the same area, but more! Then Rome had to fall. In fact, Rome was clearly the only thing stopping it.

    It is eminently possible that the ECF saw this as inevitable, as what Paul HAD to have taught, without really knowing or confirming. We see the same falicies in today's teaching all the time. Despite their proximity to the cross, I'm sure the men then had the same innate failings as men today.
    All I'm saying is: we must be cautious. And we must not jump to assumptions about what CAN and CANNOT be.

    I'm sorry, but...I feel like you are doing what our Dispensational friends do here and inserting a gap that the text doesn't really warrent.
    The whole passage stems from Pauls desire to reassure the Thessalonians that the "Day of the Lord" has not yet come. He describes 'that Day' as "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him". So...Paul is talking about the second coming.
    And how does he reassure these people that the second coming has not yet come?
    He tells them that a 'rebellion' must come first, then the Man of Lawlessness will be revealed. He will be revealed when the restrainer is taken out of the way. And then "that day" will come, when Christ will slay him with the breath of his mouth.

    Now...it sort of seems to me that the impact and informing nature of Paul's disclosure, is lessened somewhat if what he truly means is: 'the restrainer will be lifted, the AC will come and then several hundred or thousand years later, THEN the day of the Lord will come, when he will FINALLY slay him".

    I'm not saying that your take is impossible, by the way, I'm just saying I find it hard to see it naturally in the text. And also, I must point out that while it may NOT say the AC is slayed immediately, it also doesn't mention anything about a delay.


    Mmm, except, you're seemingly missing the fact that Chrysostom lists these kingdoms and defeats as one after another, and therefore seems to believe or imply that the AC must therefore come and also be defeated immediately after Rome.
    Also, as I mentioned before...while 2 Thess 2 MIGHT be able to be read in the way you're suggesting, it doesn't outright mention a gap, so in point of fact, you are just reading into it. Which is fine if you can fine multiple other scriptures to support your view. If not, it becomes problematic.
     
  19. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I think to some extent, it most certainly does impact the issue. Let me remind you, you are proposing we understand a biblical text based upon the writings of those who are NOT under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This means that they make mistakes. Even on important issues, well meaning men can make mistakes.
    How many people, do you think, believed in the prevailing thought that the Earth was flat and wrote accordingly?
    You see...I believe ALL truly inspired teachings are those that can be confirmed by scripture. And that God, in his own wisdom, made it this way. He made it this way so that his people could read and confirm it thus, even when they were removed, either by time or location, from the direct source.
    If we start relying on historical writings, no matter how much they 'agree', as 'inspired and of God'...with no scripture to back them up...then any amount of teachings throughout the ages that are clearly NOT of God could be argued to be from him, simply because a number of 'historically sound' gentlement made a claim it was.


    Hmmm...again, 2 Thess 2 is fairly 'suggesty'.
    But again, I suppose I'll dig into this a bit deeper with those resources brakelite has given me...

    Well, to put your mind at rest, I'm not a futurist. But, I do see evidence for a personable AC. But yes, I expect he will come with a system/governemnt, etc. But, as I said to brakelite, the two are inevitably entwined. There's always a guy at the top. In your case, it'd be the Pope. But the Pope doesn't get his 'platform' without the RCC...if you catch my drift.
    However...I'm not sure we necessarily disagree. You would say that they 'system' of the RCC (probably not how you term it all, sorry) is 'Antichrist'...with multiple 'Popes'. I would say that John tells us that many antichrists will come, but we can expect a final one...a final push of greater evil just before Christ returns.
    Of course, as I currently sit, I'd say that many other systems/people fit the category of 'antichrist' down through the years...not just various Popes. Scripture tells us anyone who denies Christ came in the flesh is one.
    To be perfectly honest though...I don't have a really nailed down doctrine of AC. Probably because I feel we can't know who it will be until he comes upon the scene. Perhaps that's wrong of me...I don't know.

    Sure maybe. But...maybe not. Again...my point really lies in the fact that I'm just not comfortable arriving at a decision based upon guesswork or assumption, and then slotting it into my biblical understanding. Usually I like to work the other way around...

    Well...putting a gap in the text is reading into it as well. I will grant you it doesn't outright state the Man of Lawlessness 'arises' just before Christ's coming. But it also doesn't state there will be a time period inbetween the two either.
    So...we are at an impasse!

    Here's what I don't particularly understand about your reasoning...God's control and timing are upon everything. That is sort of the point of the passage, isn't it? So...regardless of who the restrainer is; be it an agent of good or bad (and again, the passage doesn't specify either way to solve this conundrum between us!), we are to be encouraged anyway. The book of Revelation is very similar. The people of God are martyred...and yet, through our persistence even in trial, we triumph! That IS the encouragement.
     
  20. brakelite

    brakelite Guest

    Okay. Just got home and onto my usual tech platform and discovered to my horror that an incomplete post was posted from my phone. Bad spelling and grammar, and not finished...also leaving room for great misunderstanding. So...
    First, I said that in the Eastern nations God was blessing people and I made it sound as if He were blessing Muslims and cursing Catholics...not quite. Before Islam rolled all over those Eastern nations, there were strong Christian churches there, for example, in Syria 'the lost cities' displayed advances in architecture and standards of living far outstripping anything in the west. Same in those nations that even earlier accepted the gospel such as those Gothic nations evangelised by Ulfilas .
    And the thought I hadn't finished is there is no doubt technology has been used for good and evil...when Jesus promised the gospel going to all the world, I do not see that being accomplished by man. There are billions who have never heard the name of Jesus. They aren't going to hear that name and His good news through missionaries. We will all do our thing, but on our own, no way can we reach all the world. God will have to do that. And maybe He has brought about the rise in technology for that very purpose, or at least as a vehicle for a larger audience than any one on one testifying could accomplish. I know of one church which sponsors thousands of ipods with the gospel and the whole Bible loaded being distributed in local languages in areas never before touched by personal missions. This is God's doing, and who knows what is around the corner. To claim this is the devil's doing is just plain weird...I don't think he is so dumb as to expect that if he had introduced advanced knowledge in technology, God wouldn't use it to His advantage. I think personally he dreads such a thing because an increase in Bible knowledge is what exposes him and all his deceptions. The Guttenberg press a prime example, and perhaps the first nail in his coffin.
     
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