The Restrainer

[Davy]

I gave you explicit examples of where the Bible says the Antichrist is a "horn" and a "beast" which the Bible says plainly are KINGDOMS - not singular men.

There you are wrong once again. God's Word describes TWO 'beasts' to come, and only 1 of them is a kingdom...

1st Beast - Kingdom
Rev 13:1
13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
KJV


2nd Beast - Person
Rev 13:11-12
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
KJV


Rev.17 defines the ten horns of the 1st beast as ten kings, and the seven heads as seven mountains upon which the harlot sits. Rev.13:2 makes comparisons of the beast kingdoms from Dan.7.

The 2nd beast is a single person, appearing LIKE Christ ("two horns like a lamb"), but will speak as the dragon (Satan). The same description of a pseudo-Christ with his working miracles to deceive is given there like Jesus gave in Matthew 24:23-26, and like Paul gave in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Rev.17 reveals who that 2nd beast is also, but I'm not going to show you, since you are so bent on following men's doctrines against God's Word about the coming a singular Antichrist.

 

[Davy]

I gave you explicit examples of where the Bible says the Antichrist is a "horn" and a "beast" which the Bible says plainly are KINGDOMS - not singular men.

Furthermore, just the fact of what happened to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, in Daniel's day, should have been plenty to show you that the 'beast' metaphor is applied not only to the kingdoms in the Book of Daniel, but also to their individual kings...


This was God's punishment upon king Nebuchadnezzar. He was literally made low to live with the beasts of the field. There is a disease name for this condition, it was real and actually happened.

Dan 4:24-25
24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:

25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
KJV

 

[CoreIssue]

There you are wrong once again. God's Word describes TWO 'beasts' to come, and only 1 of them is a kingdom...

1st Beast - Kingdom
Rev 13:1
13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
KJV


2nd Beast - Person
Rev 13:11-12
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
KJV


Rev.17 defines the ten horns of the 1st beast as ten kings, and the seven heads as seven mountains upon which the harlot sits. Rev.13:2 makes comparisons of the beast kingdoms from Dan.7.

The 2nd beast is a single person, appearing LIKE Christ ("two horns like a lamb"), but will speak as the dragon (Satan). The same description of a pseudo-Christ with his working miracles to deceive is given there like Jesus gave in Matthew 24:23-26, and like Paul gave in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Rev.17 reveals who that 2nd beast is also, but I'm not going to show you, since you are so bent on following men's doctrines against God's Word about the coming a singular Antichrist.

The first beast rises out of the people and is the AC. The Emperor of the 10 nations of the restore Roman Empire.

The Bible clearly defines the AC as he, not it.

 

[Davy]

The first beast rises out of the people and is the AC. The Emperor of the 10 nations of the restore Roman Empire.

The Bible clearly defines the AC as he, not it.

The 1st beast of Rev.13 is a kingdom beast. That's what the ten horns (ten kings), seven heads (seven mountains), and ten crowns are about.

The 2nd beast is a singular entity, called the "another beast", has two horns LIKE a lamb (Jesus), but speaks as a dragon (Satan), and is to work miracles in the sight of men. This is The Antichrist, the mimic of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[CoreIssue]

The 1st beast of Rev.13 is a kingdom beast. That's what the ten horns (ten kings), seven heads (seven mountains), and ten crowns are about.

The 2nd beast is a singular entity, called the "another beast", has two horns LIKE a lamb (Jesus), but speaks as a dragon (Satan), and is to work miracles in the sight of men. This is The Antichrist, the mimic of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If you look in the sixth bowl the AC, false prophet and the Dragon all our possessed by an evil spirit each.

They go out together the nation to the AC war.

That is impossible if the beast is the nation's.

Thessalonians and Revelation the fine the beast as a man, not a nation.

You are interpreting that piece to mean nation instead of a person. The Bible does not say that.

 

[Jay Ross]

I gave you explicit examples of where the Bible says the Antichrist is a "horn" and a "beast" which the Bible says plainly are KINGDOMS - not singular men.

Daniel. 7:15-18: - 15 "I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 'Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.'​

It seems to me that the four beasts are singular enities/individuals who have influence over the people who chose to inhabit their respective dominions. When People chose to live and work within their respective dominions, the four beasts have "armies" to do their biddings.

Knowing where the beasts have come from, i.e. their history, and what they were before they came, helps us to understand their power and its source.

Shalom

 

[Phoneman777]

"Beasts" represent both kingdoms and a man in the Bible. Horns represent power in both kingdoms and the Little Horn of Daniel. But both Daniel, Revelation and other Scriptures make it clear that the Antichrist is a Satan-energized king, not merely a kingdom (which would make no sense).

Daniel is clear that the beasts and horns of chapter 7 are "kingdoms". The Antichrist "little horn" is to arise among the ten horns which came out of the fallen Roman Empire, which took place back in the 6th century. No single man can possibly live from that time until Jesus comes back and destroys the Man of Sin Antichrist "with the brightness of His coming". It has to be a kingdom over which many men (popes) will reign.

 

[Phoneman777]

There you are wrong once again. God's Word describes TWO 'beasts' to come, and only 1 of them is a kingdom...

1st Beast - Kingdom
Rev 13:1
13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
KJV


2nd Beast - Person
Rev 13:11-12
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
KJV


Rev.17 defines the ten horns of the 1st beast as ten kings, and the seven heads as seven mountains upon which the harlot sits. Rev.13:2 makes comparisons of the beast kingdoms from Dan.7.

The 2nd beast is a single person, appearing LIKE Christ ("two horns like a lamb"), but will speak as the dragon (Satan). The same description of a pseudo-Christ with his working miracles to deceive is given there like Jesus gave in Matthew 24:23-26, and like Paul gave in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Rev.17 reveals who that 2nd beast is also, but I'm not going to show you, since you are so bent on following men's doctrines against God's Word about the coming a singular Antichrist.

You cannot dispute the fact that the Bible says the Antichrist "little horn" was to arise "among the ten" horns which came up from the fallen fourth beast, the pagan Roman Empire.

How can this Antichrist - which is described as the "first beast" in Rev. 13, the "man of sin" in 2 Thess. the "whore riding the beast" in Rev. 17 - be a single man seeing that the Antichrist is to arise way back among the ten barbarian nations which arose out of the ashes of the fallen Roman Empire and then continue until it is destroyed "at the brightness of His coming"? It HAS to be a kingdom with many men (popes) who would reign over it.

 

[Phoneman777]

Furthermore, just the fact of what happened to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, in Daniel's day, should have been plenty to show you that the 'beast' metaphor is applied not only to the kingdoms in the Book of Daniel, but also to their individual kings...

I think the word of an angel from heaven which said "the fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom" is proof enough that in the case of Daniel 7, the beasts are kingdoms, and we are in no position to argue with him.

 

[Phoneman777]

Daniel. 7:15-18: - 15 "I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 'Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.'​

It seems to me that the four beasts are singular enities/individuals who have influence over the people who chose to inhabit their respective dominions. When People chose to live and work within their respective dominions, the four beasts have "armies" to do their biddings.

I'd agree with you if only "are four kings" was all that was mentioned, though one might argue that if a "king" doesn't have a "kingdom", he's not a king at all.

However, a couple verses later, we read "The fourth beast shall be the fourth KINGDOM..." which removes all possibility that the four beasts of Daniel refers to anything less that "kingdoms". The "horns" are also described in plurality, and we cannot but interpret the "little horn" as a kingdom as well if we're going to be consistent. The "little horn" is the papacy which arose among the "ten horns" - barbarian nations - way back in the 6th century. It is still with us today and is responsible for the Jesuit Futurist idea of an Antichist which has yet to arrive. The Jesuits sent that idea into the world when the Reformers were condemning the papacy as Antichrist and just over 100 years ago that idea began to take root in Protestantism and today Protestants everywhere are taling about a soon coming Antichrist.

Should we really trust the papacy to decipher something so deep and hard to interpret as end times prophecy when they have managed to get every single other thing WRONG about the Bible, including the extremely elementary doctrine of all time that "by grace are ye saved through faith. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them"???

 

[Jay Ross]

I'd agree with you if only "are four kings" was all that was mentioned, though one might argue that if a "king" doesn't have a "kingdom", he's not a king at all.

However, a couple verses later, we read "The fourth beast shall be the fourth KINGDOM..." which removes all possibility that the four beasts of Daniel refers to anything less that "kingdoms". The "horns" are also described in plurality, and we cannot but interpret the "little horn" as a kingdom as well if we're going to be consistent. The "little horn" is the papacy which arose among the "ten horns" - barbarian nations - way back in the 6th century. It is still with us today and is responsible for the Jesuit Futurist idea of an Antichist which has yet to arrive. The Jesuits sent that idea into the world when the Reformers were condemning the papacy as Antichrist and just over 100 years ago that idea began to take root in Protestantism and today Protestants everywhere are taling about a soon coming Antichrist.

Should we really trust the papacy to decipher something so deep and hard to interpret as end times prophecy when they have managed to get every single other thing WRONG about the Bible, including the extremely elementary doctrine of all time that "by grace are ye saved through faith. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them"???

Dan. 7:17 is speaking of the four beasts of Daniel.7:1-12. The description of the four facetted Beast which has the attributes of the four beasts of Daniel. 7:1-12, which is referenced in Daniel. 7:19ff. The traditional translations do not necessarily convey the right understand of what Daniel saw in the Daniel. 7 vision.

You used verse 23 to justify your POV, however my understanding of the original text would suggest a very different English paraphrase. My paraphrase of this verse would read like this: -

Daniel. 7:23-25: - 23 "Thus he said:

'The fourth/four facetted beast shall be
A

fourth/​

f​

our facetted​

kingdom/dominion on earth,
Which shall be different from all other

kingdoms/​

dominions​

,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it, and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this

kingdom/​

dominion​

.
And another, {i.e. the little horn}, shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute/wear out the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then/and they/the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
​

The clue as to who or what the living entities are, in my opinion can be found in Daniel.7:2-3: -

Daniel. 7:2-3: - 2 Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds, {i.e. spiritual entities}, of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. 3 And four great beasts/breathing

living entities​

came up/manifested themselves from/within the sea, each {looking} different from the other.​

The first three respective breathing living manifestations of the spiritual entities of heaven had the appearance of beasts of prey, i.e. a Lion, a Bear and a Leopard while the fourth breathing living manifestations was different from the first three. It was described as having teeth of iron which means that it was not a beast of prey, but was something different, something that was created by man to bring destruction upon mankind.

The manifestations of the four winds of heaven mask the four winds of heaven from our view and forces us to focus away from the respective dominions driving the manifestation of each of the four winds of heaven. Thus we have the forced traditions of empires and kingdoms which has been the accepted understanding for too many years now. Soon God will reveal the truth of the matter and many will gasp at their misunderstanding of the scriptures.

Shalom

 

[Enoch111]

Daniel is clear that the beasts and horns of chapter 7 are "kingdoms".

OK. Let's take this a step at a time.

NEBUCHADNEZZAR
...and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

ALEXANDER'S FOUR GENERALS
...the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

TEN KINGS/RULERS FROM TEN KINGDOMS
...and it had ten horns.

THE ANTICHRIST -- A MAN WITH EYES AND A MOUTH
...and, behold, there came up among them another little horn... and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The Antichrist "little horn" is to arise among the ten horns which came out of the fallen Roman Empire, which took place back in the 6th century.

This is where you are TOTALLY MISTAKEN. There has never been an Antichrist on earth for 3 1/2 years ruling with Satan.

No single man can possibly live from that time until Jesus comes back and destroys the Man of Sin Antichrist "with the brightness of His coming". It has to be a kingdom over which many men (popes) will reign.

This Man of Sin has NEVER lived on the earth as yet, neither has Christ come at His Second Coming to destroy him with the brightness of His coming. THIS IS ALL FUTURE.

 

[brakelite]

OK. Let's take this a step at a time.

NEBUCHADNEZZAR
...and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

ALEXANDER'S FOUR GENERALS
...the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

TEN KINGS/RULERS FROM TEN KINGDOMS
...and it had ten horns.

THE ANTICHRIST -- A MAN WITH EYES AND A MOUTH
...and, behold, there came up among them another little horn... and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

This is where you are TOTALLY MISTAKEN. There has never been an Antichrist on earth for 3 1/2 years ruling with Satan.

This Man of Sin has NEVER lived on the earth as yet, neither has Christ come at His Second Coming to destroy him with the brightness of His coming. THIS IS ALL FUTURE.

Come on bro, you know what phone is talking about. Forget the straw man 3 1/2 single individual business. The fact is that an entity which meets every single criteria that pertains to Antichrist did arise among the ten horns, overcame 3 of them, and will be destroyed when Christ comes. To put forward a suggestion that a future imaginary person can better full that is a pipe dream.

 

[brakelite]

There you are wrong once again. God's Word describes TWO 'beasts' to come, and only 1 of them is a kingdom...

1st Beast - Kingdom
Rev 13:1
13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
KJV


2nd Beast - Person
Rev 13:11-12
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
KJV


Rev.17 defines the ten horns of the 1st beast as ten kings, and the seven heads as seven mountains upon which the harlot sits. Rev.13:2 makes comparisons of the beast kingdoms from Dan.7.

The 2nd beast is a single person, appearing LIKE Christ ("two horns like a lamb"), but will speak as the dragon (Satan). The same description of a pseudo-Christ with his working miracles to deceive is given there like Jesus gave in Matthew 24:23-26, and like Paul gave in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Rev.17 reveals who that 2nd beast is also, but I'm not going to show you, since you are so bent on following men's doctrines against God's Word about the coming a singular Antichrist.

That is all a great theory, but that is all it will ever be. Or can be. The RCC has already met every criteria demanded of prophecy regarding the Antichrist. Some of those criteria cannot, because it is impossible, for any future individual to fulfill. That's the first beast/kingdom.
The second beast, and let's give God some credit please for being prop prophetically consistent, must also be a kingdom, and the criteria that pertains to those prophecies regarding that kingdom are being fulfilled as we speak. And as the first kingdom is Antichrist, the second kingdom that speaks for it and enforces its mark and obedience, is the false prophet. Yes, through its legislative pronouncements it can enact laws and enforce them globally in a manner no individual can.
Now if the first beast is the RCC, them we must see what kingdom is currently moving in the direction of making an image to the RCC... Church/state union such as the Vatican is, and has also the global influence and power to enact laws in support of the Vatican. I think the answer is unavoidable, especially when you consider that the RCC as a church state union ceased to exist in that state in 1798, and add revelation 13 shows us, that second beast was coming up precisely at the same time the former beast was going down. Yes, the US. Add to that the fact that the mortal wound inflicted on the papacy at that time is now well and truly healed, and all the world begining to indeed wonder after her. And who can make war with the RCC?

 

[brakelite]

That is all a great theory, but that is all it will ever be. Or can be. The RCC has already met every criteria demanded of prophecy regarding the Antichrist. Some of those criteria cannot, because it is impossible, for any future individual to fulfill. That's the first beast/kingdom.
The second beast, and let's give God some credit please for being prop prophetically consistent, must also be a kingdom, and the criteria that pertains to those prophecies regarding that kingdom are being fulfilled as we speak. And as the first kingdom is Antichrist, the second kingdom that speaks for it and enforces its mark and obedience, is the false prophet. Yes, through its legislative pronouncements it can enact laws and enforce them globally in a manner no individual can.
Now if the first beast is the RCC, them we must see what kingdom is currently moving in the direction of making an image to the RCC... Church/state union such as the Vatican is, and has also the global influence and power to enact laws in support of the Vatican. I think the answer is unavoidable, especially when you consider that the RCC as a church state union ceased to exist in that state in 1798, and add revelation 13 shows us, that second beast was coming up precisely at the same time the former beast was going down. Yes, the US. Add to that the fact that the mortal wound inflicted on the papacy at that time is now well and truly healed, and all the world begining to indeed wonder after her. And who can make war with the RCC?

One more thing I forgot to mention... Despite the Constitution, don't believe for one minute that the US cannot become a union of church and state... The supreme Court is capable of anything given the right motivation. And of course it will be a Protestant union. An apostatised Protestant union having embraced Mother's dogmas again. Who would dare suggest that is not happening now?

 

[Enoch111]

To put forward a suggestion that a future imaginary person can better full that is a pipe dream.

Well this brings us back to the importance of the Restrainer and when He will absent Himself so that Satan and the Antichrist take TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE CONTROL of the inhabitants of the world for 42 months (3 1/2 years). If anyone claims that the Antichrist has been around for hundreds of years, and that Satan and the Antichrist have been literally worshiped for hundreds of years, that nullifies this prophecy.

REVELATION 13
4 And they worshipped the dragon [SATAN] which gave power unto the beast [THE ANTICHRIST]: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. [42 months = 3 1/2 years]

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. [such awful blasphemy is limited to 3 1/2 years]

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. [God will allow this universal and absolute power for only 3 1/2 years]

No man on earth has ever had this kind of power and control over ALL the inhabitants of the earth with God's permission and Satan's supernatural powers.

 

[Phoneman777]

Dan. 7:17 is speaking of the four beasts of Daniel.7:1-12. The description of the four facetted Beast which has the attributes of the four beasts of Daniel. 7:1-12, which is referenced in Daniel. 7:19ff. The traditional translations do not necessarily convey the right understand of what Daniel saw in the Daniel. 7 vision.

You used verse 23 to justify your POV, however my understanding of the original text would suggest a very different English paraphrase. My paraphrase of this verse would read like this: -

Daniel. 7:23-25: - 23 "Thus he said:

'The fourth/four facetted beast shall be
A

fourth/
f
our facetted​

kingdom/dominion on earth,
Which shall be different from all other

kingdoms/
dominions​

,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it, and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this

kingdom/
dominion​

.
And another, {i.e. the little horn}, shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute/wear out the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then/and they/the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
​

The clue as to who or what the living entities are, in my opinion can be found in Daniel.7:2-3: -

Daniel. 7:2-3: - 2 Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds, {i.e. spiritual entities}, of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. 3 And four great beasts/breathing

living entities​

came up/manifested themselves from/within the sea, each {looking} different from the other.​

The first three respective breathing living manifestations of the spiritual entities of heaven had the appearance of beasts of prey, i.e. a Lion, a Bear and a Leopard while the fourth breathing living manifestations was different from the first three. It was described as having teeth of iron which means that it was not a beast of prey, but was something different, something that was created by man to bring destruction upon mankind.

The manifestations of the four winds of heaven mask the four winds of heaven from our view and forces us to focus away from the respective dominions driving the manifestation of each of the four winds of heaven. Thus we have the forced traditions of empires and kingdoms which has been the accepted understanding for too many years now. Soon God will reveal the truth of the matter and many will gasp at their misunderstanding of the scriptures.

Shalom

Daniel 2 describes kingdoms. Daniel 7 describes the same kingdoms. Daniel 8 NAMES TWO of those kingdoms specifically. Chapter 10 also specifically mentions that the angel was fighting the prince of the kingdom of Persia, and afterward the king of Greece would come, which is the same kingdom as depicted by the leopard with four heads.

Daniel also describes the ten horns as kingdoms and the little horn arising among them is also described as among "his fellows" which means "fellow kingdoms".

Therefore, it is reckless and irresponsible for us to rewrite Daniel to make the little horn be an individual, so that we can head on over to Revelation 13 and 2 Thessalonians 2 and make these mere TWO occasions where the Antichrist is personified as an "individual" sweep away Daniel's testimony that these elements of prophecy are indeed "kingdoms", especially when the Bible often uses a reference in the singular to refer to a plurality.

Daniel firmly establishes the Antichrist is a kingdom, not an individual, and even if the Antichrist was an individual, WHICH DANIEL PLAINLY SAYS IS A KINGDOM, what do we do with the fact that each kingdom rises on the heels of the one before it and therefore the Antichrist must arise among the ten horns which arose on the heels of the fallen Roman Empire? The Antichrist arose in the 6th century, which completely rules out the possibility of it being an individual.

 

[Phoneman777]

OK. Let's take this a step at a time.

NEBUCHADNEZZAR
...and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

ALEXANDER'S FOUR GENERALS
...the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

TEN KINGS/RULERS FROM TEN KINGDOMS
...and it had ten horns.

THE ANTICHRIST -- A MAN WITH EYES AND A MOUTH
...and, behold, there came up among them another little horn... and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

This is where you are TOTALLY MISTAKEN. There has never been an Antichrist on earth for 3 1/2 years ruling with Satan.

This Man of Sin has NEVER lived on the earth as yet, neither has Christ come at His Second Coming to destroy him with the brightness of His coming. THIS IS ALL FUTURE.

Let's be honest: my interpretation incorporates both these two ideas:

1) The Beasts and Horns are plainly said to be/described as kingdoms.
2) The Bible often refers to kingdoms by personifying them as individuals while fully meaning "kingdoms".

Your interpretation totally ignores plain texts like "the fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom" in order to establish that the Antichrist is a mere man - my interpretation Protestant Historicism interpretation is fair to both concepts, while your Jesuit Futurist interpretation totally discounts the idea of the beasts (and Antichrist) being kingdoms...

...which, furthermore, doesn't make sense because the kingdoms of Daniel all arise one upon the heels of the other, with the Little Horn Antichrist rising among the ten horns which arose after the fall of Rome - which was way back in the 6th century.

I think this contrast between our two ideas speaks volumes.

 

[Jay Ross]

Daniel 2 describes kingdoms. Daniel 7 describes the same kingdoms. Daniel 8 NAMES TWO of those kingdoms specifically. Chapter 10 also specifically mentions that the angel was fighting the prince of the kingdom of Persia, and afterward the king of Greece would come, which is the same kingdom as depicted by the leopard with four heads.

Daniel also describes the ten horns as kingdoms and the little horn arising among them is also described as among "his fellows" which means "fellow kingdoms".

Therefore, it is reckless and irresponsible for us to rewrite Daniel to make the little horn be an individual, so that we can head on over to Revelation 13 and 2 Thessalonians 2 and make these mere TWO occasions where the Antichrist is personified as an "individual" sweep away Daniel's testimony that these elements of prophecy are indeed "kingdoms", especially when the Bible often uses a reference in the singular to refer to a plurality.

Daniel firmly establishes the Antichrist is a kingdom, not an individual, and even if the Antichrist was an individual, WHICH DANIEL PLAINLY SAYS IS A KINGDOM, what do we do with the fact that each kingdom rises on the heels of the one before it and therefore the Antichrist must arise among the ten horns which arose on the heels of the fallen Roman Empire? The Antichrist arose in the 6th century, which completely rules out the possibility of it being an individual.

It is an assumption that the kingdoms in Daniel. 2 statue prophecy are associated with the manifestations of the four winds of Heaven in Daniel. 7, on your part. The four winds of heaven are still causing manifestations in the sea even today, so the manifestations have therefore ebbed and flowed over time such that the manifestations of power and dominion over other countries over the last 2,500 years have moved from one people grouping to another.

You are presenting the traditional reformational POV which in effect was used to demonise the RCC to win a political battle for power during the reformation period.

The same argument does not apply today and as such we should be modifying the prophecy model that we have formed to explain the end times a s they will unfold.

know what I mean. The model you have presented does not match up with scripture.

Shalom

 

[Davy]

You cannot dispute the fact that the Bible says the Antichrist "little horn" was to arise "among the ten" horns which came up from the fallen fourth beast, the pagan Roman Empire.

How can this Antichrist - which is described as the "first beast" in Rev. 13, the "man of sin" in 2 Thess. the "whore riding the beast" in Rev. 17 - be a single man seeing that the Antichrist is to arise way back among the ten barbarian nations which arose out of the ashes of the fallen Roman Empire and then continue until it is destroyed "at the brightness of His coming"? It HAS to be a kingdom with many men (popes) who would reign over it.

The Daniel example of the "little horn" serves as a type. Or did you miss that the final beast of the feet of iron mixed with clay is for the last days when Jesus returns? In Rev.17 we are shown the idea of the ten horns with the beast king, but you don't see it because you've been wrongly taught to call things in the singular tense as being plural. You're basically tense blind, made so because of listening to men's doctrines.

Rev 17:8-13
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

One must pay attention here in Rev.17, because the subject moves back and forth between the idea of the beast kingdom, and the beast king. Here in verse 8 it is about the beast king. And it is Satan himself, for it is he that will ascend out of the bottomless pit and come to earth (in our dimension) when the casting out of Rev.12:7 forward happens for the tribulation timing.


9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

The seven heads are "seven mountains", easy. The beast system of Rev.12:3-4 was a beast kingdom Satan used of old when he first rebelled in coveting God's throne. It had only "seven crowns". But it had the "seven heads", and Rome did not yet exist back at Satan's original rebellion. So the "seven mountains" have to be something else than men's doctrine of seven hills of Rome. Afterall, Revelation is pointing to Jerusalem where God's two witnesses prophesy against the beast, not at Rome. So if you stay on the Rome drunkenness you've been taught, you won't get any of this.


10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Now the Scripture is emphatically speaking of a singular beast king again, from verse 8. It's about Satan again, because as of today none born in the flesh have been already judged and sentenced to perish in the future lake of fire. Only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish (Matthew 25:41). But will you revert to your Romanish drunkenness from men's doctrines on that instead? Most likely.


12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
KJV

Now the subject moves to the ten kings that make up part of the 1st beast kingdom. This is a repeat from Daniel 7 about the ten kings, and this Rev.17 chapter already defined the coming of a singular beast king, so that cannot be forgotten at this point either. These ten kings will give their power to the beast king, and only receive power one hour with the beast, meaning at the end of this world, pointing to the "great tribulation". So there's the "little horn" among the ten horns type from the Book of Daniel. It was there all along.

Dan 7:24-27
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, Whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.
KJV

As to what timing that little horn arising among the ten horns is for, you might want to read those verses in red, especially the Dan.7:27 verse that shows the time of their manifesting is at the END of this world when all kingdoms become those of The Father and His Son.