The Restrainer

[Davy]

I think the word of an angel from heaven which said "the fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom" is proof enough that in the case of Daniel 7, the beasts are kingdoms, and we are in no position to argue with him.

Fine, deny the Daniel 4 Scripture about king Nebuchadnezzar being made to dwell as a beast... with beast animals, and miss God's teaching there altogether. And by the way, ole Neb wrote that Daniel 4 chapter.

 

[Davy]

That is all a great theory, but that is all it will ever be. Or can be. The RCC has already met every criteria demanded of prophecy regarding the Antichrist. Some of those criteria cannot, because it is impossible, for any future individual to fulfill. That's the first beast/kingdom.

Actually, it's the Romanish drunkenness from the doctrines of men that is theory. It was a theory developed by the Reformation because of Catholic persecutions against the Protestants. I ought to know, since my ancestors were French Protestants in that era and had to flee France.

The reformers thought the pope was the Antichrist, but that didn't pan out. And because that has been such a long-standing tradition among a lot of the oldest Protestant Christian denominations, they are still pushing that traditional theory.

The reality is that the pope is NOT the Antichrist, never was. Can't say a past pope was either, simply because of a MAJOR required event that is lacking, i.e., the literal, physical 2nd COMING OF JESUS CHRIST.

So play on!!!!! That's all you're doing with that doctrine on Rome.

 

[Phoneman777]

It is an assumption that the kingdoms in Daniel. 2 statue prophecy are associated with the manifestations of the four winds of Heaven in Daniel. 7, on your part. The four winds of heaven are still causing manifestations in the sea even today, so the manifestations have therefore ebbed and flowed over time such that the manifestations of power and dominion over other countries over the last 2,500 years have moved from one people grouping to another.

You are presenting the traditional reformational POV which in effect was used to demonise the RCC to win a political battle for power during the reformation period.

The same argument does not apply today and as such we should be modifying the prophecy model that we have formed to explain the end times a s they will unfold.

know what I mean. The model you have presented does not match up with scripture.

Shalom

One must consider the pattern of prophetic revelation that God employs: "repetition and enlargement".

It is the established method of God, like any good teacher, to present the information, and then represent it in "review" form with additional details added, just like when we were all in school.

Daniel 2 is the overview, Daniel 7 repeats Daniel 2 with more details, etc.

I'm not sure why it is hard for you to see that the four kingdoms - Babylon, MP, Greece, and Rome - are repeated throughout the book. The characteristics, the successive nature of them, even the very names of them keep showing up over and over.

 

[Phoneman777]

Fine, deny the Daniel 4 Scripture about king Nebuchadnezzar being made to dwell as a beast... with beast animals, and miss God's teaching there altogether. And by the way, ole Neb wrote that Daniel 4 chapter.

While it's true that the king literally acted like a beast, the vision depicts him not as a beast, but as a tree. We're dealing with prophetic elements and their interpretation. And in Daniel 7, the beasts and horns are plainly stated to represent kingdoms, so whatever interpretation we give them, that interpretation must include the idea of kingdom, and not limited to individuals.

 

[Phoneman777]

Well this brings us back to the importance of the Restrainer and when He will absent Himself so that Satan and the Antichrist take TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE CONTROL of the inhabitants of the world for 42 months (3 1/2 years). If anyone claims that the Antichrist has been around for hundreds of years, and that Satan and the Antichrist have been literally worshiped for hundreds of years, that nullifies this prophecy.

REVELATION 13
4 And they worshipped the dragon [SATAN] which gave power unto the beast [THE ANTICHRIST]: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. [42 months = 3 1/2 years]

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. [such awful blasphemy is limited to 3 1/2 years]

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. [God will allow this universal and absolute power for only 3 1/2 years]

No man on earth has ever had this kind of power and control over ALL the inhabitants of the earth with God's permission and Satan's supernatural powers.

The Restrainer was the Roman Empire which stood preventing the rise of the papacy. The ECFs all believed Paul told the early church it was pagan Rome, as I've stated in other posts.

The Ten Horns arose in place of pagan Rome toward the end of the 5th century and the papacy arose in the early part of the 6th century.

To place Antichrist in the future means we have to disrupt the flow of history - we have to hit the pause button when the Ten Horns arose and wait over 2,000 years for the "little horn" to come on the scene. What part of "among them" do you not get, E? It plainly says "there came up among them (among the Ten Horns) another little horn..." Those Ten Horns arose right after the fall of the fourth beast, which arose on the heels of the fall of the third beast, which arose on the heels of the fall of the second, etc. etc. etc. If Antichrist is yet to arise, he's almost 2,000 years too late, right or wrong?

 

[Phoneman777]

The Daniel example of the "little horn" serves as a type. Or did you miss that the final beast of the feet of iron mixed with clay is for the last days when Jesus returns? In Rev.17 we are shown the idea of the ten horns with the beast king, but you don't see it because you've been wrongly taught to call things in the singular tense as being plural. You're basically tense blind, made so because of listening to men's doctrines.

I assure you I didn't miss it. The legs of iron are pagan Rome and the feet and toes are the barbarian nations which eventually became Europe.

The Antichrist is not yet mentioned here because God's method of prophetic revelation is "repetition and enlargement".

The first depiction of the Antichrist is Daniel 7's "Little Horn" which as I've already stated arises "among them" meaning "among the ten horns" which are the ten toes - the SAME barbarian nations: Rome. If you get this part wrong, you end up going the way of Jesuit Futurism. But, if we stay on track the Antichrist arose in the early part of the 6th century: the papacy.

 

[Jay Ross]

One must consider the pattern of prophetic revelation that God employs: "repetition and enlargement".

It is the established method of God, like any good teacher, to present the information, and then represent it in "review" form with additional details added, just like when we were all in school.

Daniel 2 is the overview, Daniel 7 repeats Daniel 2 with more details, etc.

I'm not sure why it is hard for you to see that the four kingdoms - Babylon, MP, Greece, and Rome - are repeated throughout the book. The characteristics, the successive nature of them, even the very names of them keep showing up over and over.

Your argument sounds like it is justifiable, but the reality is that your argument/rational is the reasoning of man and has no relationship to what is recorded in the scriptures.

Shalom

 

[brakelite]

Your argument sounds like it is justifiable, but the reality is that your argument/rational is the reasoning of man and has no relationship to what is recorded in the scriptures.

Shalom

What greater reasoning of man could there possibly be than the myriad of discordant and fatuous representations given to the future imaginary world dictator as are offered by the numerous clairvoyants of dispensationalism?

 

[Jay Ross]

What greater reasoning of man could there possibly be than the myriad of discordant and fatuous representations given to the future imaginary world dictator as are offered by the numerous clairvoyants of dispensationalism?

That was a mouthful, did it cause you to choke on your words? LOL

 

[brakelite]

That was a mouthful, did it cause you to choke on your words? LOL

Nah, I'm fine, but thanks for your concern. The auto correct however had a melt down.

 

[Jay Ross]

Nah, I'm fine, but thanks for your concern. The auto correct however had a melt down.

Google will have a work out as well with people wanting to know what you said. But there is a lot of what you said found on this forum.

 

[Phoneman777]

Your argument sounds like it is justifiable, but the reality is that your argument/rational is the reasoning of man and has no relationship to what is recorded in the scriptures.

Shalom

Actually, every bit of my argument is totally grounded in God's Word. Example:

1. Daniel says "the fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom" - the same is true of the other three.
2. The first beast kingdom is a "lion with eagle's wings". What is that?
3. Peter says we can't have our own private interpretation of prophecy: we must allow "holy men" which "spake as they were moved by the holy ghost" (the Bible authors) to interpret what prophetic symbolism means (2 Peter 1:16-21 KJV)
4. When inspired Jeremiah warns Israel, "The lion has come up from his thicket..." he is clearly speaking of Babylon. Check out the Ishtar Gate covered with lions with eagle's wings.
5. Habakkuk says "wings" represent speed. If Babylon conquered in just a few years, what four headed, four winged kingdom conquered almost overnight?

Therefore, Daniel 2's head is Babylon. Daniel 7's winged lion is Babylon. The chest and arms of silver of Daniel 2 is kingdom where silver was paramount: Medo-Persia. It's depicted as a lopsided bear with 3 ribs in Daniel 7 and parallels the same lopsided horned ram attacking in 3 directions in Daniel 8. The four head/winged leopard is the same four-horned kingdom which the "notable horn" Alex the Great established: Greece. The overlapping prophetic elements of the book does not allow for any other interpretation: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Barbarian nations, Antichrist which comes up "among them (the ten horns).

What is not Scriptural is the Jesuit Futurist argument, which is based not on "holy men" but on private interpretations lifted from the tabloids. The lion is England, Russia is the bear, etc. etc. etc. If you say my analysis is "unBiblical", please state your case. Thank you.

 

[Jay Ross]

What is not Scriptural is the Jesuit Futurist argument, which is based not on "holy men" but on private interpretations lifted from the tabloids. The lion is England, Russia is the bear, etc. etc. etc. If you say my analysis is "unBiblical", please state your case. Thank you.

First off, I have made no reference to the Jesuit Futurist argument in what I have posted. Nor is my understanding based on a private interpretation or been lifted from the tabloids as you suggest.

Jeremiah 50-51 also gives us information about Babylon and it sets the time period for some of its prophecies to this present time, but your interpretation of Daniel.2, 7 and 8 you have linked to the time period of 500 years before the time of Christ. Your interpretation insists that the Roman Empire has dominion over the Land of Babylon whereas this is not true. The Roman Empire which came out of the western area of Alexandra the Greats Empire and came into being after the death of Alexandra the Great.

The judgement of the four beasts will happen in our near future, in around 25 years time in heaven, which is also confirmed in the Book of Revelation and at the same time the kings of the earth will be judged on the earth and they will be gathered together and locked up in a pit to await their final punishment. This is confirm in scripture. If the Greek Empire is the third beast, then why has it disappeared from view today. If the Roman Empire is the Fourth Beast of Daniel.7:1-12, then why has it vanished from our view today as it no longer exists.

If what you claim is true then we should be able to see the empire beasts today coming up to the time of their judgement as told to us in Daniel.7:11-12.

You claim that your understanding is correct, but the evidence associated with the judgement of the beasts does not support your POV at all as the beasts that you described are not present today to be judged, then you POV must be in error, and will not happen. Scriptural this is the evidence of a false prophet and the OT tells us to stone the false prophet.

Now that does not mean that you should smoke the weed to get stoned. If we were to adhere to the law then we would collectively pick up stones to stone you to death.

If this does not prove your POV is flawed, then nothing will and you will continue to make these false reports.

Shalom

 

[brakelite]

First off, I have made no reference to the Jesuit Futurist argument in what I have posted. Nor is my understanding based on a private interpretation or been lifted from the tabloids as you suggest.

Jeremiah 50-51 also gives us information about Babylon and it sets the time period for some of its prophecies to this present time, but your interpretation of Daniel.2, 7 and 8 you have linked to the time period of 500 years before the time of Christ. Your interpretation insists that the Roman Empire has dominion over the Land of Babylon whereas this is not true. The Roman Empire which came out of the western area of Alexandra the Greats Empire and came into being after the death of Alexandra the Great.

The judgement of the beast will happen in our near future, in around 25 years time in heaven, which is also confirmed in the Book of Revelation and at the same time the kings of the earth will be judged on the earth and they will be gathered together and locked up in a pit to await their final punishment. This is confirm in scripture. If the Greek Empire is the third beast, then why has it disappeared from view today. If the Roman Empire is the Fourth Beast of Daniel.7:1-12, then why has it vanished from our view today as it no longer exists.

If what you claim is true then we should be able to see the empire beasts today coming up to the time of their judgement as told to us in Daniel.7:11-13.

You claim that your understanding is correct, but the evidence associated with the judgement of the beasts does not support your POV at all as the beasts that you described are not present today to be judged, then you POV must be in error, and will not happen. Scriptural this is the evidence of a false prophet and the OT tells us to stone the false prophet.

Now that does not mean that you should smoke the weed to get stoned. If we were to adhere to the law then we would collectively pick up stones to stone you to death.

If this does not prove your POV is flawed, then nothing will and you will continue to make a these false reports.

Shalom

Are they not present in the first beast of Revelation 13? The Antichrist? How can that be he asks, how can an individual comprise all those empires? Great question. He can't. But the RCC certainly can, and does. You can trace the false beliefs and pagan traditions of all 4 Empires right into the heart and soul of the Vatican. That is how they will get judged at the last day... Through being a part of the composite beast of revelation 13.

 

[Harvest 1874]

One must consider the pattern of prophetic revelation that God employs: "repetition and enlargement".

It is the established method of God, like any good teacher, to present the information, and then represent it in "review" form with additional details added, just like when we were all in school.

Agreed, “Knowledge is the accumulation of facts and understanding comes from the connecting of these facts one with the other. These processes begin in earliest childhood, when one is "weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast."

The very method employed by the Lord is the same, which educators today generally agree upon. First, inform the student of a number of proven facts ("precepts") and then teach them the logical process of connecting these facts ("line [of reasoning] upon line [of reasoning]"). In order to hold the pupil’s attention, a good teacher frequently changes the subject material, returning time and time again to each theme.”

“Because God deals with us as a wise parent with his children, knowing that we need our food little by little, and the lighter diet before the strong meat, therefore his truth is so arranged as to meet our necessities: a little of the truth upon one subject is placed here and a little more there; and as we take these little bits and put them together we gain strength and are able to appreciate the whole of it. As we deal with children, so God deals with us, giving us line upon line, and precept upon precept—the same truths repeated over and over from different standpoints, thus enforcing his teachings”

 

[Davy]

While it's true that the king literally acted like a beast, the vision depicts him not as a beast, but as a tree. We're dealing with prophetic elements and their interpretation. And in Daniel 7, the beasts and horns are plainly stated to represent kingdoms, so whatever interpretation we give them, that interpretation must include the idea of kingdom, and not limited to individuals.

No, you didn't finish reading the Scripture.

Dan 4:19-33
19 Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was astonied for one hour, and his thoughts troubled him. The king spake, and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation thereof, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine enemies.
20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;
21 Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:
22 It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.
23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;
24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:
25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
26 And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.
27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.
28 All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.
29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.
30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.
32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
KJV


Dan 4:16
16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
KJV


The disease Nebuchadnezzar suffered there is rare and is called Lycanthropy.

The comparison to a tree given early in the dream is a metaphor often used for royalty. Nebuchadnezzar began as a high cedar, a king, but God caused him to lose his kingdom and dwell literally with the beasts, until he learned Who The GOD is that rules in the affairs of men. See Ezekiel 17 and Ezekiel 31.

 

[Davy]

I assure you I didn't miss it. The legs of iron are pagan Rome and the feet and toes are the barbarian nations which eventually became Europe.

The number of European nations way surpassed the number of ten, so that should be easy to know that Europe is not the subject of the final beast of ten toes of iron mixed with clay. The ten kings will only manifest when the coming Antichrist is revealed in Jerusalem, that is what Rev.17 shows.

Study Dan.2 closer, because it is showing ALL... of the previous beast types manifest "together" when the feet of iron mixed with clay supports it all at the very end of this world just prior to Christ's return, when He will smite it upon its feet and the whole comes tumbling down together. All the beasts image parts together means a "one world government", or one-world beast kingdom, the declarations of Rev.13 with the 1st beast of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns.

 

[Jay Ross]

Are they not present in the first beast of Revelation 13? The Antichrist? How can that be he asks, how can an individual comprise all those empires? Great question. He can't. But the RCC certainly can, and does. You can trace the false beliefs and pagan traditions of all 4 Empires right into the heart and soul of the Vatican. That is how they will get judged at the last day... Through being a part of the composite beast of revelation 13.

oh hum, the fourth beast is not the Roman empire.

Can I use the argument that the Roman Empire is not named in the scriptures as the fourth beast of Daniel 2.:1-12. Full stop.

You are using the SDA understanding and that does not stand up to the measuring stick of the Scriptures.

Shalom

 

[brakelite]

oh hum, the fourth beast is not the Roman empire.

Can I use the argument that the Roman Empire is not named in the scriptures as the fourth beast of Daniel 2.:1-12. Full stop.

You are using the SDA understanding and that does not stand up to the measuring stick of the Scriptures.

Shalom

If it is only Adventists that can read history them so be it. What, you think they plucked their beliefs from the nearest bush? You can read history books to your heart's content from libraries the world over, from authors both of fiction and fact, playwrites, lyricists, poets, and you will find very very few, if any, who would believe that any Empire other than Rome followed Greece.
To deny the Roman factor is just willful blindness.

 

[Jay Ross]

If it is only Adventists that can read history them so be it. What, you think they plucked their beliefs from the nearest bush? You can read history books to your heart's content from libraries the world over, from authors both of fiction and fact, playwrites, lyricists, poets, and you will find very very few, if any, who would believe that any Empire other than Rome followed Greece.
To deny the Roman factor is just willful blindness.

Yes I know that the roman Empire was one of the four empires that came out of Alexandra the Great's Empire and yes with respect to Jerusalem, the Roman Empire gained dominion over the land of Canaan from the other Greek empire that had it when they moved in. But with respect to the nations that had dominion over the land of Babylon as foretold in the statue prophecy, the evidence is that the progress as occurred in Jerusalem is not there.

Interestingly, desolation and devastation occurred in the Land of Babylon before around 120 BC while the devastation and desolation of Jerusalem and the Land of Canaan began around 100 + years later. Although some of Abraham's descendants have forcibly returned to the Land of Canaan in their own strength, God has not at this present time redeemed the Israelites and turned once more to them. That event is still around 25 years into our future after God establishes His Everlasting Kingdom here on the earth.

The symmetry between the Land/Nation of Babylon and the Land of Canaan/Nation of Israel is remarkable.

But as recorded in the book of Daniel, Daniel's vision have been sealed up until the approach of the end of the ages. I am not that sure where we are on that timeline.

Do you, since the theory you believe in has been around for many years even though God said that it would be sealed up until the end of time.

Oh well, each to his own understanding then.

Shalom