The Restrainer

[Phoneman777]

First off, I have made no reference to the Jesuit Futurist argument in what I have posted.

By default, the belief that Antichrist is not yet risen is a Jesuit Futurist belief. Jesuit Ribera was the first to deny the papacy is Antichrist by insisting the Antichrist would arise in the future.

Nor is my understanding based on a private interpretation or been lifted from the tabloids as you suggest.

Fair enough. However, it is the practice of Jesuit Futurists to seek prophetic fulfillment in every news interim blurb that surfaces today.

Jeremiah 50-51 also gives us information about Babylon and it sets the time period for some of its prophecies to this present time...

What does that have to do with the FACT that Jeremiah identified Babylon as a "lion" two times, which is the very thing Peter was talking about - if we want to avoid "private interpretation" (and I'm sure you do), we must ask the "holy men" what the symbols mean. In Jeremiah, we find an irrefutable answer to the question of which kingdom does Daniel's lion represent.

...but your interpretation of Daniel.2, 7 and 8 you have linked to the time period of 500 years before the time of Christ. Your interpretation insists that the Roman Empire has dominion over the Land of Babylon whereas this is not true. The Roman Empire which came out of the western area of Alexandra the Greats Empire and came into being after the death of Alexandra the Great.

I've not linked any time period - I've simply looked around to see what the "holy men" have to say about the symbolism of the lion kingdom and found Jeremiah answers that question. I've been totally clear that Babylon was conquered by MP, which was conquered by Greece, then Rome, then the Ten Barbarian tribes, etc.

The judgement of the four beasts will happen in our near future

We know Bab, MP, Greece, and Rome are long gone, so HOW are their lives "preserved for a season"? Through their PHILOSOPHIES which are embedded in the papal Antichrist of Revelation 13: Babylon's pride, Medo-Persia's inflexible iron law, Greece's higher criticism of truth, Rome's devotion to the sun god Satan: in the Judgment of the papacy, every single one of those false ideas will be exposed.

...in around 25 years time in heaven, which is also confirmed in the Book of Revelation and at the same time the kings of the earth will be judged on the earth and they will be gathered together and locked up in a pit to await their final punishment. This is confirm in scripture.

Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion especially since when the saints go to heaven in the rapture, the Earth and the heavens are going to be set on fire leaving not a single thing alive down here.

If the Greek Empire is the third beast, then why has it disappeared from view today. If the Roman Empire is the Fourth Beast of Daniel.7:1-12, then why has it vanished from our view today as it no longer exists.

Because the prophecies said they would vanish, conquered by the subsequent kingdom which stands in its place. Bab was conquered by MP, then by Greece, then by Rome, then by the Ten Barbarian hordes, among which the papacy arose as the papal Antichrist, just as the prophetic timeline establishes.

If what you claim is true then we should be able to see the empire beasts today coming up to the time of their judgement as told to us in Daniel.7:11-12.

Your expectation is wrong for two reasons: First, the symbolism is immense regarding the "preserved their lives for a season". There's no way to literally "preserve their lives for a season" - they're conquered and must cease to exist as they all have. The symbolism refers to their philosophies. Secondly, there can't be any "25 years post-heaven judgment" because Daniel 2 plainly says those nations are destroyed at the Second Coming by the arrival of the Stone.

You claim that your understanding is correct, but the evidence associated with the judgement of the beasts does not support your POV at all as the beasts that you described are not present today to be judged, then you POV must be in error, and will not happen. Scriptural this is the evidence of a false prophet and the OT tells us to stone the false prophet.

Again, the symbolism refers to their philosophies, what they stood for, the distinctive characteristic of them. Ruling those nations out as candidate kingdoms - especially when the various descriptions of these kingdoms throughout Daniel dovetail so unbelievably seamlessly - by virtue of demanding they must still be around after the Bible says they are conquered and after human experience has taught that the conquered are either destroyed or assimilated but never allowed to remain...is just unrealistic expectation, plain and simple.

So it appears on the scales I've got an immense amount of evidence that links the beasts throughout the chapters of Daniel in a way that all but makes any other interpretation impossible, and you've got just one obscure verse about "preserving their lives for a season" for a future judgment on your side.... After driving past miles and miles of aligned fence posts and happening upon one that is out of alignment, would you recommend going back to the beginning and digging up the rest in order to reset them in line with the one...or just pick up the one and move it so that it aligns with the rest?

 

[Phoneman777]

Agreed, “Knowledge is the accumulation of facts and understanding comes from the connecting of these facts one with the other. These processes begin in earliest childhood, when one is "weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast."

The very method employed by the Lord is the same, which educators today generally agree upon. First, inform the student of a number of proven facts ("precepts") and then teach them the logical process of connecting these facts ("line [of reasoning] upon line [of reasoning]"). In order to hold the pupil’s attention, a good teacher frequently changes the subject material, returning time and time again to each theme.”

“Because God deals with us as a wise parent with his children, knowing that we need our food little by little, and the lighter diet before the strong meat, therefore his truth is so arranged as to meet our necessities: a little of the truth upon one subject is placed here and a little more there; and as we take these little bits and put them together we gain strength and are able to appreciate the whole of it. As we deal with children, so God deals with us, giving us line upon line, and precept upon precept—the same truths repeated over and over from different standpoints, thus enforcing his teachings”

Where can I find that quote?

 

[Phoneman777]

No, you didn't finish reading the Scripture.

Dan 4:19-33
19 Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was astonied for one hour, and his thoughts troubled him. The king spake, and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation thereof, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine enemies.
20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;
21 Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:
22 It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.
23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;
24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:
25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
26 And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.
27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.
28 All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.
29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.
30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.
32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
KJV


Dan 4:16
16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
KJV


The disease Nebuchadnezzar suffered there is rare and is called Lycanthropy.

The comparison to a tree given early in the dream is a metaphor often used for royalty. Nebuchadnezzar began as a high cedar, a king, but God caused him to lose his kingdom and dwell literally with the beasts, until he learned Who The GOD is that rules in the affairs of men. See Ezekiel 17 and Ezekiel 31.

No where in the text is Nebuchadnezzer depicted as a beast - again, he is depicted as a tree that is cut down. It is his lycanthropic actions that are described as beastly, not the man himself, and this passage cannot be compared with other passages which do depict the subject nation itself as a beast.

 

[Phoneman777]

The number of European nations way surpassed the number of ten, so that should be easy to know that Europe is not the subject of the final beast of ten toes of iron mixed with clay. The ten kings will only manifest when the coming Antichrist is revealed in Jerusalem, that is what Rev.17 shows.

That is totally subjective reasoning. There's nothing in the prophecy which demands an account for the rest of the European nations which came on the scene. It is only necessary to account for those that existed at the time the Little Horn comes up "among them", after which the focus totally settles on what the Antichrist would do to God's truth, His people, and the Antichrist's blasphemous campaign against Christ.

Study Dan.2 closer, because it is showing ALL... of the previous beast types manifest "together" when the feet of iron mixed with clay supports it all at the very end of this world just prior to Christ's return, when He will smite it upon its feet and the whole comes tumbling down together. All the beasts image parts together means a "one world government", or one-world beast kingdom, the declarations of Rev.13 with the 1st beast of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns.

More subjective reasoning. There's not composite description of the previous beasts in the feet and toes at all - no mention of gold, silver or bronze...just iron and clay, which refers to the papal Roman "iron" attempting to mix with the Potter's "clay" and it has done a fine job as the "clay" cannot discern that they not only deny the papal Antichrist, but DEFEND her against any such accusation.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Where can I find that quote?

I believe it is derived from a quote of Vera Stanley Alder in which she said:

“Knowledge is the accumulation of facts wisdom is the deduction from these facts of useful laws, a process which can only take place by comparing the facts in one compartment with those in all others, thus giving a vision of the whole”.

 

[Jay Ross]

By default, the belief that Antichrist is not yet risen is a Jesuit Futurist belief. Jesuit Ribera was the first to deny the papacy is Antichrist by insisting the Antichrist would arise in the future. Fair enough. However, it is the practice of Jesuit Futurists to seek prophetic fulfillment in every news interim blurb that surfaces today.

Was Jesuit Ribera wrong in insisting that the Antichrist would arise in the distant future? No he was not, but then I am also not sure that all of his understanding was either right or wrong because I have not taken the time to read it. But concerning the Antichrist, that is still to occur after the Bottomless Pit is unlocked and that is in our distant future.

What does that have to do with the FACT that Jeremiah identified Babylon as a "lion" two times, which is the very thing Peter was talking about - if we want to avoid "private interpretation" (and I'm sure you do), we must ask the "holy men" what the symbols mean. In Jeremiah, we find an irrefutable answer to the question of which kingdom does Daniel's lion represent.

Citation of the Biblical reference is required to back up this claim

I've not linked any time period - I've simply looked around to see what the "holy men" have to say about the symbolism of the lion kingdom and found Jeremiah answers that question. I've been totally clear that Babylon was conquered by MP, which was conquered by Greece, then Rome, then the Ten Barbarian tribes, etc.

Citation of who the "Holy men" are and their understanding of the symbolism.

Repeating who you believe the five segment nations are does not make your belief true at all.

We know Bab, MP, Greece, and Rome are long gone, so HOW are their lives "preserved for a season"? Through their PHILOSOPHIES which are embedded in the papal Antichrist of Revelation 13: Babylon's pride, Medo-Persia's inflexible iron law, Greece's higher criticism of truth, Rome's devotion to the sun god Satan: in the Judgment of the papacy, every single one of those false ideas will be exposed.

You seem to be expressing a similar idea to what I believe where the difference is that you have expressed that the influence over these nations is the Philosophies of the manifested empires whereas I am suggesting that the influence over the respective nations that rise up in the sea are four wicked fallen heavenly hosts. All that you have done is called the influence of the four beasts their respective philosophies.

Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion especially since when the saints go to heaven in the rapture, the Earth and the heavens are going to be set on fire leaving not a single thing alive down here.

Not sure were this comes from theologically.

Because the prophecies said they would vanish, conquered by the subsequent kingdom which stands in its place. Bab was conquered by MP, then by Greece, then by Rome, then by the Ten Barbarian hordes, among which the papacy arose as the papal Antichrist, just as the prophetic timeline establishes.

It seems that you are mixing apples with oranges by attempting to combine two independents subject prophecies together in one prophecy.

That is simply just bad practice when considering Biblical prophecy.

Your expectation is wrong for two reasons: First, the symbolism is immense regarding the "preserved their lives for a season". There's no way to literally "preserve their lives for a season" - they're conquered and must cease to exist as they all have. The symbolism refers to their philosophies. Secondly, there can't be any "25 years post-heaven judgment" because Daniel 2 plainly says those nations are destroyed at the Second Coming by the arrival of the Stone.

You are again trying to link two different prophecies together when they should not be.

Again, the symbolism refers to their philosophies, what they stood for, the distinctive characteristic of them. Ruling those nations out as candidate kingdoms - especially when the various descriptions of these kingdoms throughout Daniel dovetail so unbelievably seamlessly - by virtue of demanding they must still be around after the Bible says they are conquered and after human experience has taught that the conquered are either destroyed or assimilated but never allowed to remain...is just unrealistic expectation, plain and simple.

As stated above your argument here is very similar to mine concerning where the influence is coming from.

So it appears on the scales I've got an immense amount of evidence that links the beasts throughout the chapters of Daniel in a way that all but makes any other interpretation impossible, and you've got just one obscure verse about "preserving their lives for a season" for a future judgment on your side.... After driving past miles and miles of aligned fence posts and happening upon one that is out of alignment, would you recommend going back to the beginning and digging up the rest in order to reset them in line with the one...or just pick up the one and move it so that it aligns with the rest?

In this last quote you are patting yourself on the back claiming that you have more evidence than I do to support your theory. Sadly it requires time to confirm the correctness of our respective theories.

So we will have to wait the 25 or so years to see if what I am suggesting is true.

But looking at your logic, you lost the debate.

Sorry

 

[Phoneman777]

Was Jesuit Ribera wrong in insisting that the Antichrist would arise in the distant future? No he was not, but then I am also not sure that all of his understanding was either right or wrong because I have not taken the time to read it. But concerning the Antichrist, that is still to occur after the Bottomless Pit is unlocked and that is in our distant future.

When the Reformers were calling out the papacy as Antichrist, many many Catholics fled the papacy and joined up with the Reformed churches. This caused such a crisis that the Council of Trent convened, a record eighteen years council, where the Jesuits were given the job of finding an interpretation of the Bible which would exonerate the papacy. Alcazar was actually the first to deny the accusations of the Reformers with his Jesuit Preterism idea and Ribera afterward came out with his Futurist idea. So, yes, Ribera is wrong for going to the Bible to confirm a preconcieved idea of truth rather than humbly asking the Holy Spirit to teach him truth, whether it points to the papacy as Antichrist or not. Do you think we should approach the Bible the way Jesuit Ribera did and hope to find truth?

Citation of the Biblical reference is required to back up this claim

2 Peter 1:16-21 KJV We gotta ask those "holy men" what the symbols in prophecy mean to avoid "private interpretation, bro.

Citation of who the "Holy men" are and their understanding of the symbolism.

The Bible writers. We must allow the Bible to interpret itself, especially when it comes to prophetic symbolism.

Repeating who you believe the five segment nations are does not make your belief true at all.

OK, let's ask Daniel who the head of gold is: "Thou art this head of gold. And after thee shall arise another KINGDOM inferior to thee." Clearly, Babylon is the head of gold. History and the rest of Daniel confirm the next nation is MP, followed by Greece, etc.

Daniel 7 has as the first beast the"lion". Ask Jeremiah who is the "lion" and he says twice that Babylon is the lion, first in Jeremiah 4:6-7, and Jeremiah 50:43-44, with a less clear but obvious reference to the coming captivity at the hands of the "lion" in Jeremiah 49:19.

You seem to be expressing a similar idea to what I believe where the difference is that you have expressed that the influence over these nations is the Philosophies of the manifested empires whereas I am suggesting that the influence over the respective nations that rise up in the sea are four wicked fallen heavenly hosts. All that you have done is called the influence of the four beasts their respective philosophies.

The only problem is that you have not asked the "holy men (which) spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" just who are these beasts. The reason is you have an unrealistic expectation that these beasts must come in near proximity to the judgment since they will stand in that judgment...but this requires you to ignore the well established theme of these four nations which keep showing up in Daniel's prophecies starting with Babylon as the head of gold.

Not sure were this comes from theologically.

Jesus says He is coming as a thief in the night to collect the saints. Peter says when the Lord comes "as a thief in the night" the entire Earth and atmosphere is going to be set on fire (2 Peter 3:10 KJV) Therefore, your "25 years post-Second Coming judgment" idea is impossible.

It seems that you are mixing apples with oranges by attempting to combine two independents subject prophecies together in one prophecy.

Well, how else are you arriving at your conclusions? Your beef is that the beasts can't be those four nations I keep referring to because they have to be in existence in the end, right?

As stated above your argument here is very similar to mine concerning where the influence is coming from.

Yes, it is the influence of those kingdom philosophies which is how Daniel says "their lives are prolonged for a season" - through the reign of terror of the papacy.

In this last quote you are patting yourself on the back claiming that you have more evidence than I do to support your theory. Sadly it requires time to confirm the correctness of our respective theories.

Well, I have actually provided far more info than you. Perhaps we could discuss where Historicism begins in prophecy?

But looking at your logic, you lost the debate.

??? Really? I've given you coherent facts based in Scripture on why Babylon is the head of gold, the lion with eagle wings, and even provided you with facts about MP being the chest of silver and the lopsided bear...and you've yet to say anything more than "you're wrong and I'm right".

 

[brakelite]

So we will have to wait the 25 or so years to see if what I am suggesting is true.

But looking at your logic, you lost the debate.

We have already had 2500 years of history which already confirms the prophecy...it doesn't take any "theories" to promote it...it answers for itself. What you are doing is refusing to accept that history because it is such a rebuke to your futurist theories, which can only be theories. Jesus said that the only way to know or understand prophecy was to look back, not forward.

 

[Jay Ross]

We have already had 2500 years of history which already confirms the prophecy...it doesn't take any "theories" to promote it...it answers for itself. What you are doing is refusing to accept that history because it is such a rebuke to your futurist theories, which can only be theories. Jesus said that the only way to know or understand prophecy was to look back, not forward.

Well, we still have another 1,000 or so years to come yet before the truth will be know fully.

We all only have theories, and history only shows that the theories are not always supported by History. Perhaps you are making your call too early to be sure of your facts. Remember that there is still over a 1,000 plus years to go before we can look back at the history of mankind in full.

Shalom

 

[brakelite]

Well, we still have another 1,000 or so years to come yet before the truth will be know fully.

We all only have theories, and history only shows that the theories are not always supported by History. Perhaps you are making your call too early to be sure of your facts. Remember that there is still over a 1,000 plus years to go before we can look back at the history of mankind in full.

Shalom

After Jesus comes there'll be no need to look back at anything other than at the magnificent gift of the cross. No one will care one bean whether they were right or wrong regarding the identity of the Antichrist or its image. Those who were wrong about the Antichrist I fear will be deceived by the Antichrist so I doubt they will be there to worry about it.

 

[Jay Ross]

After Jesus comes there'll be no need to look back at anything other than at the magnificent gift of the cross. No one will care one bean whether they were right or wrong regarding the identity of the Antichrist or its image. Those who were wrong about the Antichrist I fear will be deceived by the Antichrist so I doubt they will be there to worry about it.

You are right, when Christ comes in 1,000 plus years time, no body will care whether or not they are right or wrong and they will not look back because the Antichrist/the beast, the False Prophet and Satan will have been dealt with by Christ. What they will be concerned about is their own righteousness before the Lord, which, at that point in time will have already been recorded.

Shalom

 

[Davy]

No where in the text is Nebuchadnezzer depicted as a beast - again, he is depicted as a tree that is cut down. It is his lycanthropic actions that are described as beastly, not the man himself, and this passage cannot be compared with other passages which do depict the subject nation itself as a beast.

I guess you are blind then...

Dan.4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
KJV


Dan 4:16
16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
KJV

 

[Davy]

That is totally subjective reasoning. There's nothing in the prophecy which demands an account for the rest of the European nations which came on the scene. It is only necessary to account for those that existed at the time the Little Horn comes up "among them", after which the focus totally settles on what the Antichrist would do to God's truth, His people, and the Antichrist's blasphemous campaign against Christ.
More subjective reasoning. There's not composite description of the previous beasts in the feet and toes at all - no mention of gold, silver or bronze...just iron and clay, which refers to the papal Roman "iron" attempting to mix with the Potter's "clay" and it has done a fine job as the "clay" cannot discern that they not only deny the papal Antichrist, but DEFEND her against any such accusation.

What is subjective reasoning is claiming the ten horns was fulfilled back in the days of pagan Rome, and trying to apply those ten horns to ten European nations under a pope. You wouldn't simply read the Daniel 2 Scripture I pointed you to, so I guess I'll have to show others that are... interested in what God's Word teaches on the matter of the ten horns for the END of this world...

Neb's dream was a beast statue having 5 pieces:
1. head of gold
2. breast and arms of silver
3. belly and thighs of brass
4. legs of iron
5. feet part of iron and part of clay


Dan 2:38-45
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, represented the head of gold. Then another kingdom of silver would come after him which was Medo-Persia since that conquered Babylon. Then another kingdom would come of brass, which was Alexander who conquered the Medes.


40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

A 4th kingdom would come represented by the legs of iron, which was pagan Rome.


41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

This one of the feet is actually the final kingdom, a 5th kingdom. The ten toes represent the ten horns, or ten kings of Rev.17. It is for the very END of this world, and here is why...


44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

In the days of those ten kings, God will setup His eternal Kingdom which shall never be destroyed. What timing would that be? It will be when Christ's 2nd coming happens, which is still... future to us today!

So ten kings manifest at the end, Jesus comes to destroy them. ENDTIME prophecy, NOT HISTORY! Got it?


45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
KJV

And just in case there are some stubborn learners among Christ's Church, our Heavenly Father showed that once more for emphasis, that the ten king's reign is for the END of this world in the generation when Jesus returns! That is Who that "stone" represents that will smite... that ten toed future kingdom upon its feet, and the WHOLE BEAST STATUE with all... its pieces, will come tumbling down! And The Father and The Son will setup His eternal Kingdom on earth instead, which of course is yet future.

 

[Phoneman777]

I guess you are blind then...

Dan.4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
KJV


Dan 4:16
16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
KJV

Nebuchadnezzer is NOT called a beast...it only says he'd act like one. Amazing the lengths people will go to make their Jesuit ideas work...including adding to Scripture.

 

[Phoneman777]

This one of the feet is actually the final kingdom, a 5th kingdom. The ten toes represent the ten horns, or ten kings of Rev.17. It is for the very END of this world, and here is why...

And here lies the root of your error: the error of a "fifth" kingdom. THERE IS NO FIFTH KINGDOM. Daniel says the legs of iron would divide into ten toes, which are the ten divisions of the Roman Empire. Daniel 7 says that the Antichrist would arise among those ten divisions.

 

[brakelite]

And here lies the root of your error: the error of a "fifth" kingdom. THERE IS NO FIFTH KINGDOM. Daniel says the legs of iron would divide into ten toes, which are the ten divisions of the Roman Empire. Daniel 7 says that the Antichrist would arise among those ten divisions. Ki

I'm going to have to partly agree, and partly disagree. Sort of like part iron part clay. Which is the union of church and state... Papal Rome. But the ten toes are as Dave said, for the time of the end when they are destroyed... All ten, not seven.
Daniel 7 however as you have said, does indeed have ten horns, but that are different from those ten Kings of revelation 17. The revelation 17 does equate to Daniel 2... Daniel 7 does equate to Europe. The 7 submissive nations after the destruction of the 3 pertain to Europe under the papacy which is a type of the 10 which are global and are destroyed at the second coming.
So Daniel 2 is certainly an overview of all history, and the Daniel 7 beast with ten horns gives us detail of the events that take us up to that second coming. The Little horn being the Antichrist who continues 1260 years under whose influence the 3 horns we uprooted, and under whose influence later the ten global powers/kings will be established with the global Babylonian spiritual Empire... Apostate Christianity.

BTW we recognise of course that the 1260 years have passed, and what we are now witnessing is the resurrection from that mortal wound. The church/state union died in 1798... But began its comeback in 1929. Today, the Vatican is more involved in world politics than anyone would care to imagine...as a union of church and state. Both openly and secretly.

 

[Pre-Trib Rapper]

I believe the Holy Spirit is the restrainer because it refers to "he".

 

[Enoch111]

I believe the Holy Spirit is the restrainer because it refers to "he".

That is correct. Only God can (and does) restrain Satan.

 

[brakelite]

That is correct. Only God can (and does) restrain Satan.

That word, 'restrainer', while popular in its usage to describe 'that which with-holds', or as in the YLT, 'keeping down', suggests to the mind that something or someone is chomping at the bit to take over, and is finally permitted free licence to rule. Like restraining a prize fighter from his knock-out punch, or using a leash to restrain a rabid dog from biting a neighbour. However, all that kind of supposition simply lends itself to only one interpretation. The holy Spirit restraining Satan. However, both the Spirit of God and Satan use agencies in the work here on earth, and it is those agencies that prophecy deals with and speaks of. It is through those agencies that we recognise who is behind them. God gives prophecy that we may know and recognise real-time living enemies who are a danger to us and our loved ones...God's people. Telling us simply that Satan hates us while true, doesn't help us in identifying the powers being used in the battle. Prophecy does that, because God wants us to know precisely who and what is going on around us...he wants us to be certain in our identification of antichrist, and He has given us so many clues and criteria that only one power on earth has or could meet, it is irresponsible to deny it.
If we simply restrict ourselves to what the text says, And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time, we may then understand the text with a different nuance. That in the world of the rise and fall of nations, God's sovereignty permitted the rule of one nation to continue for a time until its replacement was permitted to take over from its predecessor according to God's time-table.
So when we look at history, and we observe the rise of the Papacy among the 10 horns that had so much direct impact on the Christian world of that era, and observe how the Papacy's influence was so prevalent in the demise of 3 of them, we can easily recognise that while it may be true that the holy Spirit was working in the hearts and minds of certain influential leaders to bring about God's purposes, God didn't stand in the way of those religious leaders in Rome who through greed for power and wealth, veered away from the true faith to share the beds of kings and queens in mutual adultery. While not denying the work of the holy Spirit, or the devil, the prophecies deal with real living human people and groups of people. 'That which withholdeth' is that power which sat on the governmental throne of the empire, and so long as he occupied that seat, none could claim authority over him. 'In his time', the bishops of Rome, representing the power and authority of the mystery of iniquity, saw an opportunity as the civil seat of Rome was vacated, and with the approval of the eastern Emperor Justinian, claimed the throne.
Time, circumstance, and the ongoing flow of historical narrative saw the fulfilment of Daniel 7, and 2 Thess.2.

 

[Harvest 1874]

That word, 'restrainer', while popular in its usage to describe 'that which with-holds', or as in the YLT, 'keeping down', suggests to the mind that something or someone is chomping at the bit to take over, and is finally permitted free licence to rule. Like restraining a prize fighter from his knock-out punch, or using a leash to restrain a rabid dog from biting a neighbour. However, all that kind of supposition simply lends itself to only one interpretation. The holy Spirit restraining Satan. However, both the Spirit of God and Satan use agencies in the work here on earth, and it is those agencies that prophecy deals with and speaks of. It is through those agencies that we recognise who is behind them. God gives prophecy that we may know and recognise real-time living enemies who are a danger to us and our loved ones...God's people. Telling us simply that Satan hates us while true, doesn't help us in identifying the powers being used in the battle. Prophecy does that, because God wants us to know precisely who and what is going on around us...he wants us to be certain in our identification of antichrist, and He has given us so many clues and criteria that only one power on earth has or could meet, it is irresponsible to deny it.
If we simply restrict ourselves to what the text says, And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time, we may then understand the text with a different nuance. That in the world of the rise and fall of nations, God's sovereignty permitted the rule of one nation to continue for a time until its replacement was permitted to take over from its predecessor according to God's time-table.
So when we look at history, and we observe the rise of the Papacy among the 10 horns that had so much direct impact on the Christian world of that era, and observe how the Papacy's influence was so prevalent in the demise of 3 of them, we can easily recognise that while it may be true that the holy Spirit was working in the hearts and minds of certain influential leaders to bring about God's purposes, God didn't stand in the way of those religious leaders in Rome who through greed for power and wealth, veered away from the true faith to share the beds of kings and queens in mutual adultery. While not denying the work of the holy Spirit, or the devil, the prophecies deal with real living human people and groups of people. 'That which withholdeth' is that power which sat on the governmental throne of the empire, and so long as he occupied that seat, none could claim authority over him. 'In his time', the bishops of Rome, representing the power and authority of the mystery of iniquity, saw an opportunity as the civil seat of Rome was vacated, and with the approval of the eastern Emperor Justinian, claimed the throne.
Time, circumstance, and the ongoing flow of historical narrative saw the fulfilment of Daniel 7, and 2 Thess.2.

Agreed, even as was covered in Part 26 of Our Lord's Great Prophecy.