The Restrainer

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Phoneman777

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Early church writings and histories are certainly interesting. But they are not canon. Thus, I think we need to be very careful assigning to doctrine that which does not come out of scripture directly.
And don't mistake me...I'm not attempting to insist that my theory presented here is 100% accurate and therefore am standing dogmatically behind it. I am more interested in having a conversation over the possibilities of it, and where scripture passages lead us to be more certain of some things, and less certain of others.
I thought you wanted a "reasonable, Bible based discussion"? So far, all I see is an attempt to cast doubt on what are facts of history as a means to derail any such discussion. The reasonable, Biblical historic facts are:

1) In 2 Thess. 2, the early church knew what was the Restrainer because Paul told them so:

2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth (what "restraineth") that he (Man of Sin) might be revealed in his time.​

2) The Early Church Fathers with one unanimous voice said that Paul told the early church it was the Roman Empire and expected the Man of Sin to arise after its fall...without exception.

3) If the Restrainer were truly an "agent of holiness", either the Holy Spirit, the "Holy Spirit filled church", "Michael the Archangel", etc, etc, etc, then why didn't Paul freely say so?
  • Would not doing so be a tremendous encouragement to the early, fledgling, persecuted church - that despite their wretched state, God's "agent of holiness" has a celestial boot on the throat of the Man of Sin?
  • Does it make sense to assume that Paul - who not even once failed to proclaim God's might and power to pagans, be they kings to commoners - had suddenly become too timid to openly proclaim the identity and power of this supposed "agent of holiness" Restrainer to God's own blood-washed people?
4) Is it reasonable to doubt the writings of the ECF when they lived not too far removed from the day of Paul and were well aware of the prevailing teachings of that church imparted to them by him?

5) Does not the "remarkable unanimity" of the ECF about the identity of the Restrainer at the very least demand investigation as to why there conclusions were so identical?

So, which Restrainer makes more sense: an "agent of holiness" or Pagan Rome?
 
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bbyrd009

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Do a bible search for references of "this age" and "the age to come". There is a clear teaching of a distinction. And while Christ teaches the Kingdom has come now, in this age, the 'age to come' is also clearly of things eternal, things sinless and perfected.
Luke 18:30 Lexicon: who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

is likely more a primer for verifying the definition of Eternal as "age-long," constructed so as to allow one to keep believing "eternal" means "forever" if they want to do so; being as how the same root is used on purpose, when other expressions were available, and the juxtaposition of "this time" there for "this age" is even telling imo, iow "Eternal" is being defined concisely from two diff povs imo.

"double-minded" might also clarify a little in that pov?
but I don't want to appear to deny a literal resurrection, Bc I don't know what tomorrow will bring, but I think we have enough other Scripture to make our concept of going up to heaven after we die and becoming immortals pretty much moot, as much as we might like to wish otherwise
 

bbyrd009

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I truly was in opposition.
Well to that I would say that you might have been off the rails then, sinning maybe, yes, but "in opposition" is not necessarily a sin, right, depending upon what you were in opposition to. Which the point there might be that it can be hard to tell the diff when you are not involved and looking in from the outside, and attempting to form a judgement maybe. Christ was in opposition too, broke laws too, but you perceive his crimes differently, right?
 
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bbyrd009

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As in Isaiah “He will swallow up death in victory” and in Revelation “and there shall be no more death”.
It's a spiritual Book after all, why not contemplate "spiritual death" there, especially being as how we have so many indicators for that as the pertinent subject? Let the dead bury the dead?
 
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Waiting on him

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Well to that I would say that you might have been off the rails then, sinning maybe, yes, but "in opposition" is not necessarily a sin, right, depending upon what you were in opposition to. Which the point there might be that it can be hard to tell the diff when you are not involved and looking in from the outside, and attempting to form a judgement maybe. Christ was in opposition too, broke laws too, but you perceive his crimes differently, right?
What I was opposed to was loving my neighbor as I love myself.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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It's a spiritual Book after all, why not contemplate "spiritual death" there, especially being as how we have so many indicators for that as the pertinent subject? Let the dead bury the dead?

Luke 24:5
[5] And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
 
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bbyrd009

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Luke 24:5
[5] And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
to that I would say that reading down to v31 maybe provides a fuller perspective,
and their eyes were opened, and they knew Him; and He vanished out of their sight

which we also read with our Magical Thinking at first, but oops notice that a diff perspective is just under the surface there? Not sure how to even mark it, but contemplate their eyes being opened, and then Jesus "literally" vanishing maybe, "out of their sight"

I guess that is prolly hard to put together if you insist on a literal reading...which might be the point. If you need a Sacrifice for God to be ok with you then you will read one way--and be restrained--and if you, when you seek to partake in Christ you will read another imo.

There is no "sin" per se in Nehushtan worship I guess, but at the same time you will never become elohim yourself like that. It is maybe the diff in worshipping Jesus--being restrained, iow, at least imo--and Christ as High Priest with you as Priest.
 
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Earburner

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This is an interesting thought, I suppose because in a way Christ has, in a true way, done exactly that. It is his right, after all, as the only true way, true God.
However, we can see in the context of the passage that Paul is NOT speaking of Jesus here. The 'man of lawlessness' comes in opposition to Christ, and Christ will 'kill him'. This man also comes by the activity of Satan. Definitely not Jesus!


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, -2 Thessalonians 2:8–9
How about thinking about KJV- 2 Thes. 2 this way:
As we all interpret the scripture "the natural man" to be understood in the plural, the same holds true with the words "that man of sin, the son of perdition".

Now, in the original Greek text, of the "Textus Receptus", for 2 Thes. 2, the word "that" is not there, but in reality, the word "the" is. Therefore the word "that" was a wilful insertion by the translators.
The same holds true for the words "even him". They also are an insertion
 

bbyrd009

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See that if someone insists upon pursuing immortality, and going up to heaven after they have died, then worshipping Jesus becomes a great restrainer against sin, real or imagined. Believers generally do their best to "not sin," which is a perfectly fine way to begin imo, neverminding that their MO is currently "not sinning so that heaven after death may be attained." Iow disregarding that "not sinning" is what we ought to have done anyway

Luke 17:10 Lexicon: "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"
 

Earburner

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I would like to post the details of my study, to show the truth of what I just said.
Being new here as of Feb. 2019, I have not yet posted a thread of my own authorship. I can't seem to locate on this site how to do that.
Can you be of some help, that I may?
 

VictoryinJesus

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to that I would say that reading down to v31 maybe provides a fuller perspective,
and their eyes were opened, and they knew Him; and He vanished out of their sight

which we also read with our Magical Thinking at first, but oops notice that a diff perspective is just under the surface there? Not sure how to even mark it, but contemplate their eyes being opened, and then Jesus "literally" vanishing maybe, "out of their sight"

Come out of this world?
 
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bbyrd009

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I would like to post the details of my study, to show the truth of what I just said.
Being new here as of Feb. 2019, I have not yet posted a thread of my own authorship. I can't seem to locate on this site how to do that.
Can you be of some help, that I may?
for that you want to goto "forums," then pick which forum, then you'll see a button at the top of the forum, "post new thread"
 

Davy

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Okay, so...where am I going with this? In all three of these passages we see these ideas: Satan deceives against God's truth; that's how he controls, ultimately, the nations, enhancing their already sinful desires to do his biding against the people of God.
We see that there is a time when Satan is prevented from deceiving the nations to some extent by some force/person...he is bound, or restrained.
There is also a time when he will be 'released', to go forth and deceive again, with specific intent to gather the nations against the people of God.

My thought is that these three passages are linked. Their content is too similar to ignore.
"Bind/Bound": to hold or restrict by force or obligation; tie or fasten, to restrain.
"Restrain": prevent (someone or something) from doing something; keep under control or within limits. Control, deprive.

Well, yeah, as for the idea of restraining, and deception by Satan, they are linked. But the time of the event in 2 Thess.2 is not... linked to the Rev.20 chapter.

The beginning of 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul is warning the brethren that before Christ's return and gathering of the Church, that man of sin must be revealed along with that apostasy happening.