The Revelation 11, Revelation 13, and Luke 17 Connection: Why the Pretrib Timeline Chronologically Collapses

[marks]

Obviously, it's not talking about literal sheep and goats,

Thank you for sharing that.

Obviously, the sheep and goat designations are similes, as Jesus said that He will separate them "Like" a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He continues to use the simile, just as obviously.

So we take the passage literally, without getting lost in the fact that Jesus used similes. And the thing is, we have Scriptural authority that this is a simile, and what it means, the text supplies that.

Any time someone says, this is simile, this is metaphor, this is allegory, this is symbol, I look for where the text tells us this, and what the text tells us it means. Without those elements, the interpretation simply lacks Scriptural authority.

Like Sarah and Hagar, this is allegory, we know that, and we know what it means, because the Bible tells me so.

Where does it tell us that Jesus judgment of righteousness according to their works is simile? Or metaphor? Or anything other than what it says?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This puts you squarely at odds with a passage that says otherwise.

What are you talking about? We both know that scripture never contradicts itself. Scripture is very clear that salvation is NOT by works. It couldn't possibly be more clear. So, why would you think that Matthew 25:31-46 teaches otherwise? You need to put more effort into finding a way to keep scripture from contradicting itself instead of acting as if there is more than one way to be saved. There is not. Salvation is and always has been and always will be by grace through faith and NOT by works. Period. Paul did not indicate that there were any exceptions. The reason it's impossible for it to be any other way is because someone would have to be perfect in order to be saved by works. They'd have to be sinless. Someone who broke even one commandment of the law was guilty of breaking them all (James 2:10). No one can possibly earn their own salvation by works.

Anyone in these 7 years will not be part of the church, to whom Paul wrote.

That is utter nonsense. Where do you come up with things like this? Scripture absolutely never teaches this. The term "the church" simply refers to those who belong to Jesus Christ. They belong to what Paul said has its foundation with the apostles and prophets and its cornerstone is Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:19-22). How can you think anyone who is saved by the blood of Christ is not part of the church with Jesus Christ as its cornerstone. There's no other name by which anyone can be saved (Acts 4:12), so anyone saved by faith in Christ at any time, including during a future time of tribulation, becomes part of the church. Do you deny that people saved during the supposed future 7 year tribulation belong to Christ? They would have to belong to Christ because there's no other way to be saved (John 14:6, Acts 4:12). Anyone who belongs to Christ is part of the church.

You insist that this part doesn't mean what it says

Here you go again with your rude comments. You complain about me, but you get in digs like this all the time. You have no self awareness. Scripture ALWAYS means what it says, but the scriptural text isn't always literal and straightforward. There are various genres of text in scripture, so to say that any given verse or passage means what it says is meaningless without identifying the genre of text being used and also without considering the context of the verse in question.

because you think these people will be us, but that cannot be, according to the words of the prophecy.

You're making this claim while doing literally nothing to back it up. How are you coming to this conclusion? There is no indication whatsoever that the sheep are not Christians. Yet, you are coming to that conclusion. Only those who belong to Christ will inherit eternal life. To think otherwise contradicts a great deal of scripture.

God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

Yes, that's true, but what do you think that means? He wants to have mercy on all people (Romans 11:30-32). He has mercy on those who repent of their sins and put their faith in Him (Luke 18:9-14).

It may well be that the two witnesses will be declaring that Israel is to be cared for, and those who do so show their fear of God, and God has mercy upon them.

There is nothing in scripture to support your speculation.

This is where we need to remember that God changes His message of salvation in different times.

No, He does not! Salvation has ALWAYS been by grace through faith and not by works. No one in history has been saved by their own works and no one ever will be. Someone would have to be sinless in order to do that. No one can atone for their own sins. No one can permanently cover their own sins. Only the blood of Christ could do that. His blood retroactively covered the sins of Old Testament believers and covers the sins of all New Testament believers, including anyone saved during any future tribulation period. There is no other way for anyone to be saved. You are sadly mistaken to think otherwise.

What He told Adam was not what He told Noah, and was not what He told Abraham, and was not what He told Moses, and so on.

They were all saved the same way. By God's grace through faith. None were saved any other way. You are terribly mistaken here.

He tells us something that is not what He told them, and had indicated in the prophecies that there will be more changes still to be seen.

Not in relation to how someone obtains salvation/eternal life.

Salvation in the millennium will be in obedience, the days for faith will be over when Jesus is here.

This is not taught anywhere in scripture! I guarantee that you cannot find one single verse to support this claim. Nowhere does scripture ever teach that salvation has ever or ever will be obtained apart from faith. You just do not understand that if salvation could be earned by obedience and works, someone would have to be sinless in order for that to be the case because they would have no means of having atonement for their sins if faith in Christ was not required. It's faith in Christ and His atoning blood that is required for salvation. No one can earn it through obedience and works. That is impossible.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thank you for sharing that.

Obviously, the sheep and goat designations are similes, as Jesus said that He will separate them "Like" a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He continues to use the simile, just as obviously.

Yes, obviously. So, we have to determine who the sheep represent and who the goats represent. In John 10, sheep represent those who follow Christ and belong to Him. Jesus said this...

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

So, Jesus speaks of two folds of sheep here. The first one refers to Jewish believers. Obviously, His disciples were Jews and the gospel first came to the Jews before going out to the Gentiles. The other sheep of the other fold are Gentiles. So, the sheep represent Jew and Gentile believers that are in "one fold" with "one shepherd" (obviously, Jesus). So, the sheep in Matthew 25:31-46 represent the same as the sheep Jesus talks about here which are all believers, Jew and Gentile. All believers from all-time will inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world. That is what is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. All unbelievers, in contrast, will be cast into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:41). The goats represent those whose names are not written in the book of life. Revelation 20:11-15 shows they will be cast into the lake of fire after the thousand years (and Satan's little season) and Matthew 25:31-46 shows they will be cast into the fire when Jesus returns. Therefore, Jesus will return after the figurative thousand years of Revelation 20.

So we take the passage literally, without getting lost in the fact that Jesus used similes. And the thing is, we have Scriptural authority that this is a simile, and what it means, the text supplies that.

The terms sheep and goats are similes, but the portrayal of people being judged when Jesus returns with some inheriting eternal life and some being cast into everlasting fire is reality.

Any time someone says, this is simile, this is metaphor, this is allegory, this is symbol, I look for where the text tells us this, and what the text tells us it means. Without those elements, the interpretation simply lacks Scriptural authority.

No idea what you're talking about here. Scripture doesn't always spell these things out to us. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. That's why we need spiritual discernment to discern these things (1 Corinthians 2:9-14).

Like Sarah and Hagar, this is allegory, we know that, and we know what it means, because the Bible tells me so.

Where does it tell us that Jesus judgment of righteousness according to their works is simile? Or metaphor? Or anything other than what it says?

Do you not take all of scripture into account when you interpret any given verse or passage? Do you not make the effort to ensure that your interpretation of any given verse or passage does not contradict any other verse or passage? You should. We don't need it to tell us that. We can see the rest of scripture which teaches that salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-5, etc.). We can see other scripture which talks about our works being a reflection of our faith (James 2). Taking those concepts together, we can safely conclude that what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 25:31-46 is the works of believers being the evidence of the faith they had. He's not saying anyone can ever earn eternal life by works. That contradicts a lot of other scriptures. Why would you not take that into account here? The works referenced in Matthew 25:31-46 are the good works that God prepares for those who are saved (Ephesians 2:10). They are not works that people do to become saved. No one can earn their own salvation by works. That's why Jesus had to die for our sins. No one can ever be saved at any time in the future apart from trusting in Christ and His blood to save them. No scripture teaches otherwise. But, according to Ephesians 2:8-10 when someone becomes saved God has good works prepared for them to do after that. So, those works reflect the faith of those who became saved by grace through faith. You need to keep this in mind instead of getting tripped up by what is written in Matthew 25:31-46 and thinking that it indicates that people can one day be saved by their own works. No, they cannot.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This would make Jesus' prophecy not only unable to be properly understood, but to be actually misleading in the day He gave it.

Do you somehow not know that until they received the Holy Spirit there were a lot of things that the disciples did not yet understand? Jesus knew that they would not understand everything He was saying at that time. That's why He said this...

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

They likely did not know at the time He was speaking that the elect would include Gentiles, but they certainly understood that after the Holy Spirit taught them "all things".

Paul very clearly taught that the elect include all Christians (Romans 8:31-34). Therefore, the elect that will be gathered when Jesus comes will include all believers, Jew and Gentile.

The elect are gathered before He takes His throne, the nations after.

Wrong. It does not say that. What it actually says is that all nations (Greek: ethnos - people) will be gathered before Him after He sits on His throne. That does not mean they are not gathered at all until then. It means that they are not yet brought before His throne until He sits on His throne. They would already have been gathered before that, but not yet before the throne. So, the elect will be gathered and then after that will join the non-elect (unbelievers) before His throne, after which they will be separated to His right hand and left hand.

The elect are gathered in a group, the nations are gathered in a separate group, and are then separated according to how they treated Jesus' brothers, the Israelites.

That is not at all what the text says. You are reading things into the text that aren't there. Jesus's brothers are not the Israelites. This is once again a case of you interpreting scripture without taking other scripture into account. Here are who Jesus Himself said His brothers are...

Matthew 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

There it is. Jesus did NOT say His brothers are Israelites. He said His brothers are those who do the will of God the Father. Christians are those who do the will of the Father by following Jesus. You are trying to add a third group that isn't there. There are only two groups. The sheep and the goats. The least of these refer to sheep/believers who were hungry, thirsty, sick, in prison, etc.

Gentiles are divided sheep and goat according to how they treated Jesus' brothers, the elect, the chosen nation, the not-gentiles, Israel.

Christ's sheep include both Jew and Gentile believers, as John 10 shows. You are not using scripture to interpret scripture here.

 

[Davidpt]

Revelation 16:1-21 (KJV)
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Peace and safety?

Are you sure?

All of that is involving the DOTL. The chronology is this. They are first saying peace and safety, Then like a thief in the night the DOTL comes upon them suddenly, thus the vials of wrath follow.

That is involving the wrath of God after great tribulation, not during it. Some of you need to look at Revelation 13 again and point out anywhere in that chapter that it is involving what Revelation 16 is involving. The vials of wrath in Revelation 16 are post the 42 month reign, not during it. No one would be saying during the vials of wrath---who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with it?

The 42 month reign = great tribulation.

Great tribulation equals the little season mentioned in Revelation 6 pertaining to the 6th seal. The martyrs under the altar are to rest a little while longer until the little season on earth passes. Which then leads to the 6th seal when great tribulation on earth passes, the 6th seal involving the wrath of God after great tribulation, and involving the Revelation 16 vials of wrath.

The last 7 vials of wrath are in the 7th trumpet. If the vials of wrath parallel the trumpets, such as trumpet 1 and vial 1 paralleling, we end up with an absurdity. And it is this. The 42 month reign of the beast occurs during the 6th trumpet. That is when there is a mark to take or not take. Therefore, it is absurd that vial 1 gets poured out during trumpet 1. As of trumpet 1, no one has the mark yet. That doesn't happen until the time of the 6th trumpet.

I'm not saying it's your view that the trumpets and vials run in parallel. I simply don't know if it's your view or not. But if it is, I then showed an absurdity it causes.

In my view the 2Ws are given their 1260 days first, and that they are behind all the plagues being unleashed via trumpets 1-5. We know this via this---and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will(Revelation 11:6). The text clearly says 'all', not 'some plagues but not other plagues'. It says 'all' plagues.

When the 2Ws time expires that is when the beast then begins it's 42 month reign.

BTW, if you are having a hard time following me here, keep in mind you are the one complaining that AI shouldn't be used for anything, not even as a tool for expressing something more coherently. I understand myself just fine. That doesn't mean others might. But AIs certainly understand me, therefore, can express better what I submitted here than I ever could.

 

[CrowCross]

Just read what follows that. Those who are in spiritual darkness are saying it. They are going about their normal lives while saying it. They think they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath, but the next thing they know Jesus will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night and "sudden destruction" will come upon them from which "they shall not escape". This will occur post-trib, not pre-trib. You can't have some 7 year tribulation occurring after all unbelievers are killed.


Do you not think that the time they are saying peace and safety occurs during the tribulation? They are saying that right up until Jesus returns at which point they are then destroyed. So, your "social economic conditions" theory is unbiblical. It's your flawed understanding of what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24:37-39.

I would think you would want to re-read what Jesus had to say about the social economic conditions. It's in the bible you quote.

 

[Douggg]

Peace and safety?

Are you sure?

The world saying peace and safety will be during the first half of the 7 years, when the world will be deluded to think it is living in the beginning of the messianic age - thinking that the Antichrist person is the Jewish messiah.

That delusion will be shattered when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood (2 Thessalonians 2:4) - revealing himself as the man of sin. The ToD act.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Very few pick up a bible and read a pre-trib rapture. Most of them were indoctrinated with it as I was. I went to my town's 1st Baptist as a child every sunday and a week of bible camp every summer. This was in the early 70s while the Jesus movement was going on. Pre-trib was everywhere. I became post trib by studying the bible myself.

Really.
People read all believers refusing the mark die in rev 13, and then "logically" assume they do not?
People read the 3 distict comings in the Bible and then "logically" assume they are not three, when postrib teachers convince them they are not really 3?
People read mat 24, and assume out of nowhere, that the "before the flood" gathering, is Jesus being confused in stating Noah was gathered into the ark...AHEM...before the flood ( pretrib)
Psssst, your doctrine needs lot and Noah GATHERED POST FLOOD/ FIRE.

So no, people reading the Bible would need to depart from it, to embrace postribber wild assumptions, and reframing of the bible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I was raised in pre-trib and believed it for years like a good southern Baptist should. Then the Lord opened my eyes. I mean, I wish it was true, just like I wish annihilation was true. It's just that I don't see it in the scriptures

Ill informed.
STUDY IS NOT YOUR ENEMY

Please, please, post for me one postrib rapture verse.
You ignore Jesus teaching a pretrib rapture , in favor of your "no verses doctine"???.
Huh?????

 

[rebuilder 454]

I just feel like all these debates are just nibbling around the edges of the topic without every really getting to the meat of it.

Dispensations is a great example. If you cannot see a dispensational change at the end of the times of the Gentiles, the beginning of the 70th week, then you will never ever ever agree with someone on rapture timing who does see that.

If you believe the sheep goats judgment will happen exactly as written you will never never never agree with someone on rapture timing who holds that this prophecy is a parable for good living, or a retelling of the great white throne judgment, though they are completely different.

If we will agree on these things, the rapture timing falls right into place.

Much love!

It is a debate where postribber reading comprehension is not on the table.

 

[shepherdsword]

Really.
People read all believers refusing the mark die in rev 13, and then "logically" assume they do not?
People read the 3 distict comings in the Bible and then "logically" assume they are not three, when postrib teachers convince them they are not really 3?
People read mat 24, and assume out of nowhere, that the "before the flood" gathering, is Jesus being confused in stating Noah was gathered into the ark...AHEM...before the flood ( pretrib)
Psssst, your doctrine needs lot and Noah GATHERED POST FLOOD/ FIRE.

So no, people reading the Bible would need to depart from it, to embrace postribber wild assumptions, and reframing of the bible.

You have to programmed into the pre-trib myth

 

[shepherdsword]

Ill informed.
STUDY IS NOT YOUR ENEMY

Please, please, post for me one postrib rapture verse.
You ignore Jesus teaching a pretrib rapture , in favor of your "no verses doctine"???.
Huh?????

Pick any rapture verse...they are ALL post-trib.