The salvation journey.

[Faither]

Still one for one. I spent 4 years in Spanish classes, got passing grades, but still can't follow a conversation or a Spanish broadcast. I never had any desire to study a dead language and I can't conceive of being more proficient at one than the language of my paternal grandparents.
I just have great confidence in the ability of the Holy Spirit to teach me all things (as long as I remain willing to listen to Him. )
Fellowship with God in His word is one of my favorite activities, though these days it's reading less and recalling more. I've never been good with chapter and verse numbers, but I'm grateful for digital documents and search engines. They're a lot quicker than browsing through all but the shortest books for a particular verse.

Salvation journey step by step.
1) We're born into this world. (obvious)
2) we are not born with the Spirit of Christ. (obvious)
3) Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father calls them. So the first real step or thing that must happen in the salvation process is we are called out by the Father.
4) The correct response to the call of the Father is simply a turn from our way to His way in our minds. A mental turn from our way to the direction of the caller. This is the act of repentance.

Do you agree that number four is the correct happening and placed in the correct order?

 

[michaelvpardo]

Salvation journey step by step.
1) We're born into this world. (obvious)
2) we are not born with the Spirit of Christ. (obvious)
3) Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father calls them. So the first real step or thing that must happen in the salvation process is we are called out by the Father.
4) The correct response to the call of the Father is simply a turn from our way to His way in our minds. A mental turn from our way to the direction of the caller. This is the act of resentence.

Do you agree that number four is the correct happening and placed in the correct order?

I believe that repentance is the work of the Holy Spirit upon our hearts when we are convicted of our sin and turn to Him as Savior, but I don't know if it's possible to ignore such conviction. It's not the same as conscience as I was able to ignore my conscience with self justification and harden my heart with sin that was pleasurable.

I couldn't ignore the conviction of God and saw myself as a dead man walking before I understood the gospel and prayed a prayer of submission to His will and authority over my life, and to receive His Spirit. I don't know if that is the common experience of believers, but I've heard enough testimonies to know that it isn't unique.
That said, I would agree on the order as you place it.

 

[Faither]

I believe that repentance is the work of the Holy Spirit upon our hearts when we are convicted of our sin and turn to Him as Savior, but I don't know if it's possible to ignore such conviction. It's not the same as conscience as I was able to ignore my conscience with self justification and harden my heart with sin that was pleasurable.

I couldn't ignore the conviction of God and saw myself as a dead man walking before I understood the gospel and prayed a prayer of submission to His will and authority over my life, and to receive His Spirit. I don't know if that is the common experience of believers, but I've heard enough testimonies to know that it isn't unique.
That said, I would agree on the order as you place it.

Ya, someone calls your name from across a crowded room, you just automatically would turn to the direction of the caller. The Holy Spirits conviction definitely plays apart in that calling by the Father.

If it's okay with you, can we take up the next step or happening tomorrow?

This next step will be the most difficult happening to not only describe but to agree on. Hope you'll keep an eye out for a continued discussion tomorrow.

 

[Daniel Veler]

God's grace is conditional. Therefore one must meet the conditions God has placed upon His free gift of grace in order to receive grace. Meeting the conditions is not adding to, altering grace in anyway nor does it merit grace. Titus 2:11 if grace were completely unconditional then all men universally would be saved. Yet all will not be saved for all will not comply to God's conditions.

God has already done His part in extending grace to men by sending Christ to die on the cross. So the ball is now in man's court to obey God's condition to receive grace. So receiving grace is a process done thru man's obedience and that process is life long.

Don’t mean to correct you but the journey started before Christ came. It is written Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world. Salvation journey began with the Father.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Ya, someone calls your name from across a crowded room, you just automatically would turn to the direction of the caller. The Holy Spirits conviction definitely plays apart in that calling by the Father.

If it's okay with you, can we take up the next step or happening tomorrow?

This next step will be the most difficult happening to not only describe but to agree on. Hope you'll keep an eye out for a continued discussion tomorrow.

My eyes are getting a bit blurry, so that's fine. I can get a bit unpredictable when I'm tired, but it's pleasant to walk in agreement with a brother.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Then all men universally would unconditionally be saved, Titus 2:11.

God made salvation conditional upon men repenting and being baptized

Ya, someone calls your name from across a crowded room, you just automatically would turn to the direction of the caller. The Holy Spirits conviction definitely plays apart in that calling by the Father.

If it's okay with you, can we take up the next step or happening tomorrow?

This next step will be the most difficult happening to not only describe but to agree on. Hope you'll keep an eye out for a continued discussion tomorrow.

Test

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Ya, someone calls your name from across a crowded room, you just automatically would turn to the direction of the caller. The Holy Spirits conviction definitely plays apart in that calling by the Father.

If it's okay with you, can we take up the next step or happening tomorrow?

This next step will be the most difficult happening to not only describe but to agree on. Hope you'll keep an eye out for a continued discussion tomorrow.

It’s obvious to me that by using the late Gene Scott’s terminology such as “ Faither” , you must have been one of his listeners at in time or another......Dr. Scott always taught that “ nobody comes to God lest the Spirit draw him”....... he added that “ the initiative for Salvation belongs to God”....This should answer the question as to where “ The Salvation Journey Begins”......It began with God .....before one even exists .....before they are born....This would make one’s physical birth ( that you consider the first thing that happens in your scenario ) the second thing that happens in the Salvation Journey...or do you disagree with your former teacher, the great man of God, Dr.Scott......you seem reluctant to acknowledge his influence in regard to your doctrine.....

 

[Stumpmaster]

Here is the first thing we must agree on.
At the very start of the salvation journey, we are all in the same state of being. And that is we are born into this world and have been bought and paid for by the work of Jesus Christ on Calvary, This is Grace. At this beginning stage, although we are under Grace "we do not have the Spirit of Christ inside us yet."

Do you agree with this opening understanding?

This is basic a basic understanding, but want to establish a place of agreement by anyone who wants to discuss this honestly.

My salvation journey began with the sin of Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden. Until then no-one needed salvation, were not sons of disobedience, and were not by nature children of wrath.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Eph 2:1-3 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, (2) in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, (3) among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Blessings to all.

 

[Rita]

Salvation journey step by step.
1) We're born into this world. (obvious)
2) we are not born with the Spirit of Christ. (obvious)
3) Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father calls them. So the first real step or thing that must happen in the salvation process is we are called out by the Father.
4) The correct response to the call of the Father is simply a turn from our way to His way in our minds. A mental turn from our way to the direction of the caller. This is the act of resentence.

Do you agree that number four is the correct happening and placed in the correct order?

I always find it strange that many miss out something else before number three …….we are called to pray and intercede for people, we play a part in the calling …….I didn’t come to faith until I was 23, but years before I went along to a Sunday school and church run girls brigade ( they would have prayed for all the children who attended ) God can also direct our circumstances to be in the right place at the right time, we moved, a friend moved and she lived just up the road from a Church run playgroup ….so I chose that group for my son, they would have been praying for all the children and parents. I started to hear God calling a few months later xx

 

[Stumpmaster]

I always find it strange that many miss out something else before number three …….we are called to pray and intercede for people, we play a part in the calling …….I didn’t come to faith until I was 23, but years before I went along to a Sunday school and church run girls brigade ( they would have prayed for all the children who attended ) God can also direct our circumstances to be in the right place at the right time, we moved, a friend moved and she lived just up the road from a Church run playgroup ….so I chose that group for my son, they would have been praying for all the children and parents. I started to hear God calling a few months later xx

A seed was sown, and obviously was nurtured and cultivated to become fruitful.

Mar 4:13-14 And He said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? (14) The sower sows the word.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But he specifically said he was addressing the journey before salvation, or our "Lost state".
Some people equate redemption with salvation, and claim that only the saved have been redeemed, but redeemed just means "bought back" and in the case of the world, Christ "paid it all" and has become judge of both the living and the dead. There would be far less arguments on the forums if people would read dictionaries as well as scripture (and I'm not referring to you. )

And as I showed. In the lost state we are in a condemned state that is not a state of grace. That was my point, and instead of addressing it, or trying to even discuss it. He went and ignored it. Then he wanted an open discussion. While closing the discussion before it even got stated.

My argument was about the discussion of grace not redemption.

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

That is one of the two states all people on earth are in. Would you not agree?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Faither's post (the one I responded to.)

What was so obvious about it. Again I ask.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I believe that repentance is the work of the Holy Spirit upon our hearts when we are convicted of our sin and turn to Him as Savior, but I don't know if it's possible to ignore such conviction. It's not the same as conscience as I was able to ignore my conscience with self justification and harden my heart with sin that was pleasurable.

I couldn't ignore the conviction of God and saw myself as a dead man walking before I understood the gospel and prayed a prayer of submission to His will and authority over my life, and to receive His Spirit. I don't know if that is the common experience of believers, but I've heard enough testimonies to know that it isn't unique.
That said, I would agree on the order as you place it.

In the same token, I have witnessed God calling on some people. And even though you could see the HS working, there was no repentance. If nothing else. The heart Got harder.

While others reacted right away. And then others, it took awhile sometimes years.

Romans 1 is always a good passage. No one has an excuse. His creation shows who God is. But men through unbelief has made for themselves their own Gods, Also. Jesus himself said the HS would convince the world of sin righteousness and judgment.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Don’t mean to correct you but the journey started before Christ came. It is written Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world. Salvation journey began with the Father.

It was Christ's 'journey' to come to earth and die on the cross, shedding His blood. So Christ already has done what He needed to do to provide a path to salvation for men.
Christ died for every man (Hebrews 2:9) yet every man will not be saved, therefore the issue I am dealing with is what is man's 'journey' in the salvation process. For man to take advantage of what Christ did on the cross requires men to obey Christ (Hebrews 5:9). Those who do not obey fail to take advantage of what Christ provided them on the cross, they did not take the path Christ made that leads to salvation

 

[Daniel Veler]

It was Christ's 'journey' to come to earth and die on the cross, shedding His blood. So Christ already has done what He needed to do to provide a path to salvation for men.
Christ died for every man (Hebrews 2:9) yet every man will not be saved, therefore the issue I am dealing with is what is man's 'journey' in the salvation process. For man to take advantage of what Christ did on the cross requires men to obey Christ (Hebrews 5:9). Those who do not obey fail to take advantage of what Christ provided them on the cross, they did not take the path Christ made that leads to salvation

My post was for those to know when salvation was decided.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Nope that is not true.

Grace is not conditional.

And here is your problem. Abraham was saved by grace, and he was never baptised. You adding work to the grace of God. Which is a false gospel



The penalty of sin is death, the GIFT OF GOD IS LIFE ETERNAL

Grace is unmerited or unconditional favor.

You can’t earn salvation. Period. Not of works lest anyone should boast

Again, all men would be UNCONDITIONALLY be saved Titus 2:11 if grace is Unconditional. It takes conditional obedience to Christ to receive grace (Hebrews 5:9) and continued obedience to Christ to remain in grace. Grace is CONDITIONALLY "in Christ" (2 Timothy 2:1) so one must CONDITIONALLY be in Christ and remain in Christ to be in grace and that CONDITIONALLY takes obedience.
There is no such thing in the Bible of disobedient, rebellious sinners living in disregard to God's will yet UNCONDITIONALLY receiving grace/salvation anyway. If grace is received UNconditionally then it is maintained UNconditionally yet Paul warns the Christians in Corinth about receiving grace in vain if they continue following doctrinal error.

==========

Abraham lived under a different law, he did not live under the NT so he was not amenable to a law (Acts 2:38) that did not exist when he was alive.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

My post was for those to know when salvation was decided.

Yes, God predetermined before the world began Christ would die for the sins of man and Christ has already accomplished that. So what must man do to take advantage of what Christ did?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Again, the context of this thread is the Salvation process. Obviously a child wouldn't be in the salvation journey yet.

So you seem to be evading this simple discussion, I guess I miss read you. Sorry for wasting your time.

Maybe I misunderstood what your point is.

Christ has already done what was required of Him for man to be saved. So are we dealing with what man's journey is in being saved?
After man is physically born and is accountable to God's law, sins and becoming lost, what then is man's journey to being saved?

My position and the Bible's position is man's journey begins and ends with obedience to God's will.

 

[Faither]

My eyes are getting a bit blurry, so that's fine. I can get a bit unpredictable when I'm tired, but it's pleasant to walk in agreement with a brother.

Good day Michael, here is where we left off.

Salvation journey step by step.
1) We're born into this world. (obvious)
2) we are not born with the Spirit of Christ. (obvious)
3) Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father calls them. So the first real step or thing that must happen in the salvation process is we are called out by the Father.
4) The correct response to the call of the Father is simply a turn from our way to His way in our minds. A mental turn from our way to the direction of the caller. This is the act of repentance.
5) Taking a step towards the caller with our first act of Faith towards Him. ( still haven't received His Spirit yet, none of His yet in step 5.)

Before we describe what this 5th step looks like in detail, do you agree that at this point in the process an act of Faith is required by us?

 

[michaelvpardo]

And as I showed. In the lost state we are in a condemned state that is not a state of grace. That was my point, and instead of addressing it, or trying to even discuss it. He went and ignored it. Then he wanted an open discussion. While closing the discussion before it even got stated.

My argument was about the discussion of grace not redemption.

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

That is one of the two states all people on earth are in. Would you not agree?

That's what scripture says, so I believe it, but God's grace is primarily for the lost, not the saved. If you're being obedient as a believer, you're being blessed, but what did God say?

10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? Matthew 10-12

11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Matthew 9:11-13

Did Jesus die for the lost or for the righteous?

Isn't that sacrifice for the lost the greatest expression of God's grace?

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Romans 5:7-9

Do you disagree with the word or do you believe that we're mistaken? Is the gospel call to all, or only to those who receive it?
I believe in the doctrine of election, but the offer of salvation is made to everyone so that those who reject it justify their condemnation.