The Saving Faith

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soul man

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I would like to go off OP just a little to comment on a few posts, especially the long ones. You guys/girls really have alot to say, good stuff. You need an outlet such as a form of ministry, pulpit, all the world, something to get out what you have inside. You know the word, you have studied now I say reach out in some way to the world they need you. I can write an article because I take my time when doing it but to give long rebuttals I just can't do it, dont have the energy. The younger generation must step up and take the torch, a word of encouragement.
 

Ac28

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Peter is referring to being received by the Bridegroom at the pre great trib rapture when God will judge His House first. I see Peter mirroring Paul's call of those looking to Him to help them lay aside every weight & sin in departing from iniquity of that race run by faith in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd.

When you see how that chapter began in how sinners as mockers are living in these latter days, then you may see Peter's warning to be abiding in Him to be ready to go.

1 Peter 4:1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

So Peter's reference to the end of all things being at hand is for believers to abide in Him for when He comes to escape what is coming on the earth as there will be judgment on the ungodly and the unbelievers, but He will be judging His House first.


Jesus warned of this preparing to be ready to go to believers seeking to be His disciples in Luke 12:40-49 where the consequence is being cut off and cast away to be with the unbelievers that are still on the earth when that fire comes.

Getting back to Peter's message for preparedness before God comes to judge as the Bridegroom, we see the same message in the 2nd epistle by him that mirrors how mockers will be in the last days for how we should not run as they do from Peter's first epistle.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men......9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Peter refers to Paul in how Paul had warned them to be ready and abiding in Him by running that race to avoid becoming a castaway, but it is not for eternal life as in to obtain salvation by, but to be ready as His disciples to escape and be saved from what is coming on the earth.

I go back to your reference in 1 Peter 4:17-19 to include verse 19, in the KJV because it is significant in pointing out that those that are not abiding in Him, He is faithful still as He will keep their souls while they suffer being left behind.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

So while you see that as if salvation is to come with works, I say please repent of that notion, because Jesus Christ is your Saviour because He has saved you. Those unrepentant saints & former believers left behind to suffer that fire coming on the earth, He is keeping their souls still because He is their Saviour, even though they were not abiding in Him as His disciples by faith in Him as their Good Shepherd in having them ready to go, they will become vessels unto dishonor in His House testifying to the power of God in salvation by those who believe in Jesus Christ, even in His name.

The Bride is the all-Israel Acts Church plus those few saved Gentiles in Acts, plus Abraham, Moses, and those other all-faithful Israelites who have a hope of the Israel New Jerusalem, where, in Rev 21:9-10, the New Jerusalem is called the Bride. Israel's original position with God was as a wife but they were divorced in Ac 28. Before that, Israel had been an adulterer, but not accepting God's only Son was the last straw. SHE, Israel, is now in a state of divorcement. The 1st Covenant marriage agreement (keeping the Law) was conditional upon whether or not Israel would actually keep the law and they said, "I Do". The New Covenant, which also solely belongs to Israel, is the New marriage agreement, which will enable our just God to take another Bride. The difference is that the New Covenant is unconditional, and, through the Holy Spirit, it will put the Law in Israel's inward parts so they will always keep the Law and will love doing it, automatically.

Since the Appearing in Paul's post-Acts books is the first resurrection, chronologically, and since the post-Acts church is the actual Body of Christ, where Christ is the actual Head, and these 2, the Body and Head, cannot be separated, today's Gentile Church plus Christ, make up the Bridegroom. We Gentiles in the after-Acts church are called the new MAN, in Eph 2:15, 4:24, and, only in this immoral world we live in, controlled by the little "g", god of this world, can a Man be called a Bride. In God's world, that can't happen.
 
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Ac28

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I would like to go off OP just a little to comment on a few posts, especially the long ones. You guys/girls really have alot to say, good stuff. You need an outlet such as a form of ministry, pulpit, all the world, something to get out what you have inside. You know the word, you have studied now I say reach out in some way to the world they need you. I can write an article because I take my time when doing it but to give long rebuttals I just can't do it, dont have the energy. The younger generation must step up and take the torch, a word of encouragement.
I'm 78. Surely you're not that old. I bought a domain and I'm starting a blog called rightlydividinggodsword.com, if I can get off these addictive forums, where everybody plays King on the hill. I've never seen anyone on a forum change their doctrine. That's not why they're here. They're here to battle and outdo the other members. The main reason I'm here is because I am practicing for the blog. I haven't been in the Bible much for awhile and had forgotten a lot of details. Forums make me study the Bible and research a lot, and that's what I need right now.
 
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GodsGrace

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I'm 78. Surely you're not that old. I bought a domain and I'm starting a blog called rightlydividinggodsword.com, if I can get off these addictive forums, where everybody plays King on the hill. I've never seen anyone on a forum change their doctrine. That's not why they're here. They're here to battle and outdo the other members. The main reason I'm here is because I am practicing for the blog. I haven't been in the Bible much for awhile and had forgotten a lot of details. Forums make me study the Bible and research a lot, and that's what I need right now.
And this is the reason some of us are here...
To learn new concepts and not forget the old ones.
 
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JesusIsFaithful

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The Bride is the all-Israel Acts Church plus those few saved Gentiles in Acts, plus Abraham, Moses, and those other all-faithful Israelites who have a hope of the Israel New Jerusalem, where, in Rev 21:9-10, the New Jerusalem is called the Bride. Israel's original position with God was as a wife but they were divorced in Ac 28. Before that, Israel had been an adulterer, but not accepting God's only Son was the last straw. SHE, Israel, is now in a state of divorcement. The 1st Covenant marriage agreement (keeping the Law) was conditional upon whether or not Israel would actually keep the law and they said, "I Do". The New Covenant, which also solely belongs to Israel, is the New marriage agreement, which will enable our just God to take another Bride. The difference is that the New Covenant is unconditional, and, through the Holy Spirit, it will put the Law in Israel's inward parts so they will always keep the Law and will love doing it, automatically.

Since the Appearing in Paul's post-Acts books is the first resurrection, chronologically, and since the post-Acts church is the actual Body of Christ, where Christ is the actual Head, and these 2, the Body and Head, cannot be separated, today's Gentile Church plus Christ, make up the Bridegroom. We Gentiles in the after-Acts church are called the new MAN, in Eph 2:15, 4:24, and, only in this immoral world we live in, controlled by the little "g", god of this world, can a Man be called a Bride. In God's world, that can't happen.

The soon to be rapture bride of Christ will include 144,000 virgin men that do not lie that makes up His personal choir ( Revelation 14:1-5 ) as well as including O.T. saints with His disciples as we are of the N.T. saints that abide in Him as His disciples at that Marriage Supper table ( Luke 13:24-30 ).

The O.T. saints may be in Heaven but they have not inherit that celestial body yet but they will when they join N.T. saints in the air.
 

Ac28

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The soon to be rapture bride of Christ will include 144,000 virgin men that do not lie that makes up His personal choir ( Revelation 14:1-5 ) as well as including O.T. saints with His disciples as we are of the N.T. saints that abide in Him as His disciples at that Marriage Supper table ( Luke 13:24-30 ).

The O.T. saints may be in Heaven but they have not inherit that celestial body yet but they will when they join N.T. saints in the air.

Is that before or after they return to the earth with Christ after meeting Him in the air? There is no scripture in the entire Bible that even hints that any OT saint will ever go to Heaven. Also, since the Gentile saints during Acts were grafted into Israel and were, therefore, part of Israel. They, also, will not go to Heaven, unless they later on saw and believed the calling of Heavenly Places found only in Paul's post-Acts epistles.
 

Enoch111

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There is no scripture in the entire Bible that even hints that any OT saint will ever go to Heaven.
Well since Elijah went to Heaven, that itself shoots down your theory.

And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal...And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold,there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Kings 2:1,11).

In fact, ALL the OT saints went to Heaven after the resurrection of Christ.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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Is that before or after they return to the earth with Christ after meeting Him in the air? There is no scripture in the entire Bible that even hints that any OT saint will ever go to Heaven. Also, since the Gentile saints during Acts were grafted into Israel and were, therefore, part of Israel. They, also, will not go to Heaven, unless they later on saw and believed the calling of Heavenly Places found only in Paul's post-Acts epistles.

There is a promise that O.T. saints will go to Heaven and are in Heaven.

Where they were before their resurrection was beneath the earth, but across the great gulf or chasm from hell in Abraham's bosom. 1 Samuel 28 testify to where the spirit of Samuel came from when King Saul sinned against the Lord by having a witch call his spirit up.

Then we have confirmation about those O.T. saints how by faith, they will receive that celestial inheritance,.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Since Jesus is building a city in Heaven for those He received as the Bridegroom shall live in, I assume that is why Paradise has been taken to Heaven for that is where the O.T. saints are waiting till He was ready for them.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord is the promise for every believer in Christ now.

The O.T. saints may have been resurrected but it was not in that celestial state which may be the reason why Paradise is now in Heaven after His ascension since that was where the O.T. saints were in Paradise aka Abraham's bosom, when it was located beneath the earth across the great gulf from hell. Jesus told the thief that he would meet Him that day in Paradise.

And yet scripture testify of Him descending beneath the earth, and preached unto them in prison whom were sometimes disobedient in the days of Noah and after that, which He led the captive from captivity as they were resurrected at the time that He was.

Christ had to ascend first to prepare a place for them before they could be taken up by way of Paradise since that celestial inheritance is to be received when the Bridegroom has it ready. I cannot prove this other than to say that scripture has them inheriting that celestial inheritance to attend the Marriage Supper at the same time as those who have been found abiding in Him as His disciple to be taken to sit down together at the Supper table Luke 13:24-30. If they had inherit that glorified celestial body, I fail to see why Paradise had to be taken up since it was a holding area for the O.T. saints and Jesus is not finished preparing the city for all those that would inherit that celestial inheritance.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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Well since Elijah went to Heaven, that itself shoots down your theory.

And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal...And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold,there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Kings 2:1,11).

In fact, ALL the OT saints went to Heaven after the resurrection of Christ.

John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I do not believe Elijah went to God's Heaven any more than Enoch did. They went to heaven as it also means the upper atmosphere or space, but not exactly God's Heaven.

I believe those two will be the two witnesses in Jerusalem during the great tribulation as they are now traveling through time when the Lord will drop them off then. It is my belief, but scripture does reprove the notion that Elijah and Enoch has been taken to where God dwells in Heaven.
 

Enoch111

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I do not believe Elijah went to God's Heaven any more than Enoch did.
You have got to be kidding. So Elijah is somewhere out there with the space satellites and debris? Amazing how people -- Christian people -- try to dodge the plain meaning of Scripture.

And John 3:13 needs to be properly interpreted, not used to *prove* that Elijah became a space shuttle.
 
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Truth

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You have got to be kidding. So Elijah is somewhere out there with the space satellites and debris? Amazing how people -- Christian people -- try to dodge the plain meaning of Scripture.

And John 3:13 needs to be properly interpreted, not used to *prove* that Elijah became a space shuttle.

Well you have to understand that Elijah, and Moses Appeared at the Transfiguration, BUT and there will always be a BUT, they were pulled out of the Grave for Day Use, then returned to the Grave, until next time! LOL
 

soul man

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Well you have to understand that Elijah, and Moses Appeared at the Transfiguration, BUT and there will always be a BUT, they were pulled out of the Grave for Day Use, then returned to the Grave, until next time! LOL

Day use lol couldn't help myself!!!!
 

JesusIsFaithful

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You have got to be kidding. So Elijah is somewhere out there with the space satellites and debris? Amazing how people -- Christian people -- try to dodge the plain meaning of Scripture.

And John 3:13 needs to be properly interpreted, not used to *prove* that Elijah became a space shuttle.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

So how can Elijah and Enoch go to God's Heaven? Then you have what Jesus has said.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

So Jesus just testified that He came down from God's Heaven where no man has gone before.

So Elijah and Enoch were taken up to heaven but not necessarily the third heaven where God lives.

There is precedent for why I believe they are being "transported through time", because Philip was transported from one place to another.

Acts 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.......

Then after preaching to the eunuch...

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Granted, Elijah made an appearance with Moses when Jesus was on earth, but Moses was in Abraham's bosom in Paradise under the earth wherein Elijah was not, so if that does not testify to being in God's care and that God can make any one appear together from anywhere, I can accept that, but as far as scripture goes, Paradise is not in Heaven at the time Jesus was on earth and neither was Elijah nor Enoch.

If you would hazard a guess as to where the 2 famous witnesses will come from and who they are, I would say it would be Elijah and Enoch since they did not die yet and their bodies are nowhere to be found, because they had not died yet.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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I booked a trip to the moon.
Should be nice.
I'm taking a quad with me and a small tent.
Should be nice camping there.
My dog comes along.

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Science says there is water in outer space, minute, but it is there. So what is the firmament described as created here as being heaven since it is not where God dwells? The upper atmosphere... hence the skies.

When scripture says they were taken up to heaven, try imagining a plane taking off. Not necessarily into outer space, the second heaven, but ....you should get the picture.

First heaven is the upper atmosphere that separates the earth from outer space. The second heaven is outer space. The third heaven is where God dwells. After Jesus had ascended, then man could ascend but as Paul ponder how...

2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

With Jesus Christ in the apostle John, I reckon that is how he was able to stand in His Presence, but it is still a question how though, but God knows, but some how the apostle John was translated to the third Heaven where the living God dwells.
 

Ac28

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About 10-15 years after 70AD, when John was written, ONLY Christ had ascended to Heaven. There is zero more recent scripture that says otherwise.
John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

When Paul said, if he had his druthers, he would druther be absent from the physical body and present with the Lord, he didn't say when. He knew he would be "asleep" in the grave, like every saint that has EVER died, waiting for the resurrection. His hope was to be one of the very first to be resurrected, to be in the out-resurrection of Phil 3:11, which is "out" from the other dead, at Christ's "Appearing" (not the rapture) to His creation in Heaven, when Paul would immediately translated from the grave to Heaven to be with Christ. The rapture will occur at a later time.

It is a grave error (no pun intended) to believe that the "heavenly" city, the New Jerusalem, the hope of the Acts church saints (and the OT saints), is the Heaven discussed in Paul's after-Acts books. The NJ comes down out of Heaven and becomes attached to the New Earth. The NJ is not the heaven where the after-Acts saints will be, where Christ now sits ow at God's right hand.

One of the biggest and most cruel lies (out of 1000's) promoted by the error-filled denominational system is that people immediately go to Heaven when they die, There is no purgatory, no hell, no Abraham's bosum, no soul - just hades, the grave, where everyone still is.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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Well you have to understand that Elijah, and Moses Appeared at the Transfiguration, BUT and there will always be a BUT, they were pulled out of the Grave for Day Use, then returned to the Grave, until next time! LOL

I would theorized that is why Paradise is in Heaven now and not beneath the earth for how they can be in Heaven when the first fruit of the resurrection ( that is to say inheriting that celestial body & their place in the city of God which is still being built as per John 14:1-2 ) has not happened yet as that was an error Paul mentioned in 2 Timothy 2:18 for why some stopped believing in Him. So a bodily resurrection has taken place, but they may be in that holding place where their spirits were in Paradise which is now in Heaven.

As it is, the spirit of Moses was from beneath the earth where the witch called up the spirit of the prophet Samuel from Paradise aka Abraham's bosom in 2 Samuel 28, whereas Elijah was not from there because he has not died yet. Neither did Enoch.

If any one was to guess where and who the two witnesses in Jerusalem are for the duration of the great tribulation, I would say it would be them.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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Day use lol couldn't help myself!!!!

As for the resurrected O.T. saints, I would surmise that was why Paradise, that holding place beneath the earth for their souls, was now in Heaven.

It would not make sense that they had died again, but it is possible that they had done so if the bones of those O.T. saints are still here on earth. If one searches for an O.T. saint, ( and I did this briefly on the internet ) one would find known sites where they are "supposedly" buried at but not the actual tomb containing the body. So they don't really know. They know where at, but then they mention other possible sites. So it may be possible that in that less glorified resurrected state, they were taken up in Paradise as in Jesus leading the captivity captive as the prophesy did state.

Psalm 68:8Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.

Moses had died. His spirit at the time of this Transfiguration was from beneath the earth because Moses had died. Elijah had not.

It could very well be that we are seeing the future inheritance of that celestial state as Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, so maybe they can travel back in time in that glorified celestial state. I know not.

But I do know that they were not in Heaven yet when Jesus has not led the way there yet for any one to dwell in God's House.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:...........18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.....20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Jesus had to lead the way first in Heaven for all future citizens in Heaven. So no body has ascended to Heaven until He had provided the way.

We prophesy in part and know in part but one day, we shall know the truth.
 
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Triumph1300

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One of the biggest and most cruel lies (out of 1000's) promoted by the error-filled denominational system is that people immediately go to Heaven when they die, There is no purgatory, no hell, no Abraham's bosum, no soul - just hades, the grave, where everyone still is.

I think I'm getting our RV ready and go on a trip.
Further north into the wilds of British Columbia.
Might even take the ferry to Hadai Gwai.

Oh, wait, I agree on that "purgatory" thing.
 
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