The Saving Faith

[Truth]

Day use lol couldn't help myself!!!!

I understand all to well. Speculation is a great form of truth and or fact! humor is a great form of relief!

 

[Truth]

As it is, the spirit of Moses was from beneath the earth where the witch called up the spirit of the prophet Samuel from Paradise aka Abraham's bosom in 2 Samuel 28, whereas Elijah was not from there because he has not died yet. Neither did Enoch.

If any one was to guess where and who the two witnesses in Jerusalem are for the duration of the great tribulation, I would say it would be them

All I can think is that HE, buried Moses, He being [ God ] after Moses died on Mount Ne'bo, and God buried Him in a valley in the Land of Mo'ab, opposite Beth Pe'or; but no one knows his grave to this Day!
It is a fact, that flesh and blood can not inter Gods Relm, so this is Speculation!! Did God transform Moses body? I can not say, yes or no!
As far as Elijah, God could have Transformed Him also, as this would eliminate Elijah from the First Death, whatever we Speculate has no effect on the Fact that both Moses and Elijah Appeared with Jesus at His Transfiguration, and they had to be in Immortal Bodies.

Also if you were saying that Moses and Elijah would be the Two Witnesses, I do Agree!

 

[Ac28]

I would theorized that is why Paradise is in Heaven now and not beneath the earth for how they can be in Heaven when the first fruit of the resurrection ( that is to say inheriting that celestial body & their place in the city of God which is still being built as per John 14:1-2 ) has not happened yet as that was an error Paul mentioned in 2 Timothy 2:18 for why some stopped believing in Him. So a bodily resurrection has taken place, but they may be in that holding place where their spirits were in Paradise which is now in Heaven.

As it is, the spirit of Moses was from beneath the earth where the witch called up the spirit of the prophet Samuel from Paradise aka Abraham's bosom in 2 Samuel 28, whereas Elijah was not from there because he has not died yet. Neither did Enoch.

If any one was to guess where and who the two witnesses in Jerusalem are for the duration of the great tribulation, I would say it would be them.

Paradise, which doesn't exist now, since every mention of it associates it with the earth and the New Earth. 2Cor 12 says it's in the 3rd Heaven, but there is no reason to think there are now 3 (or, 7) different heavens. We are now in the 2nd heaven, time wise, The 3rd heaven is in the future. Christ never did see the malefactor in paradise in Lk 23:43, because there's zero doubt that the comma in that verse should be after Today, and not before. Also, there was no paradise at the time, and won't be until the New Jerusalem is attached to the New Earth. Paradise isn't a thing that is a separate entity and floats around from here to there. It's what a certain place is called because of its characteristics.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

All I can think is that HE, buried Moses, He being [ God ] after Moses died on Mount Ne'bo, and God buried Him in a valley in the Land of Mo'ab, opposite Beth Pe'or; but no one knows his grave to this Day!
It is a fact, that flesh and blood can not inter Gods Relm, so this is Speculation!! Did God transform Moses body? I can not say, yes or no!
As far as Elijah, God could have Transformed Him also, as this would eliminate Elijah from the First Death, whatever we Speculate has no effect on the Fact that both Moses and Elijah Appeared with Jesus at His Transfiguration, and they had to be in Immortal Bodies.

When no man has ascended into Heaven yet where God's throne is, and they can only get there by way of Jesus Christ leading the way, then no one else can be there because that would take away the purpose and His glory for being our Saviour.

We have this testimony by Paul in the Book of Hebrews:

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Since He has to lead the way in preparing a place for us being the first born of the resurrection in translating any of us into the kingdom of the Son, there is no way any other saint can get there.

Also if you were saying that Moses and Elijah would be the Two Witnesses, I do Agree!

I am aware of that other possibility for who the Two Witnesses are, but since Moses had died and was buried, I lean towards Enoch & Elijah being the prophetic Two Witnesses because they had not died. If you consider how the 2 witnesses will be killed and then resurrected during the great tribulation to execute the wrath of God, then I do not see Moses dying again for that purpose when it would be in opposition to this word.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

That is why I think it would be Enoch and Elijah for why God had taken them which is to be His Two Witnesses in Jerusalem during the great tribulation.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Paradise, which doesn't exist now, since every mention of it associates it with the earth and the New Earth. 2Cor 12 says it's in the 3rd Heaven, but there is no reason to think there are now 3 (or, 7) different heavens. We are now in the 2nd heaven, time wise, The 3rd heaven is in the future. Christ never did see the malefactor in paradise in Lk 23:43, because there's zero doubt that the comma in that verse should be after Today, and not before. Also, there was no paradise at the time, and won't be until the New Jerusalem is attached to the New Earth. Paradise isn't a thing that is a separate entity and floats around from here to there. It's what a certain place is called because of its characteristics.

Not sure how you can separate the three heavens, one being where God dwells, by past, present, and future as if God's dwelling place does not exist yet but is in the future. That does not sound right, brother.

 

[Enoch111]

Paradise, which doesn't exist now, since every mention of it associates it with the earth and the New Earth.

The Bible makes it crystal clear that Paradise is in the New Jerusalem at present. And not every mention of it is connected to the New Heaven and the New Earth. Looks like you invent your own theology as you go along, and it is very inventive indeed. But it is not Bible truth.

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Lk 23:42,43).

2 CORINTHIANS 12
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

[amadeus]

Not sure how you can separate the three heavens, one being where God dwells, by past, present, and future as if God's dwelling place does not exist yet but is in the future. That does not sound right, brother.

What if the three heavens can seen in the types and shadows of the three levels of Noah's Ark, or the three parts of the tabernacle in the wilderness: Outer court, Holy Place and Holiest of Holies?

 

[Helen]

@amadeus

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

What if the three heavens can seen in the types and shadows of the three levels of Noah's Ark, or the three parts of the tabernacle in the wilderness: Outer court, Holy Place and Holiest of Holies?

God's Tabernacle maybe, but not Noah's ark.

Since God's tabernacle will be New Jerusalem that will come down from Heaven from where God dwells, the Holiest of the Holies, then the city of God would be the Holy Place and the outer courts is the world.

But the two level of heavens as created in Genesis is still separate places from the third Heaven from where God created everything from.

 

[Helen]

hummmm

 

[Ac28]

The Bible makes it crystal clear that Paradise is in the New Jerusalem at present. And not every mention of it is connected to the New Heaven and the New Earth. Looks like you invent your own theology as you go along, and it is very inventive indeed. But it is not Bible truth.

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Lk 23:42,43).

2 CORINTHIANS 12
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The word paradise appears in the Bible 3 times and it never says it is NOW part of the New Jerusalem. It will be, in about 1800 years, when the NJ is attached to the New Earth. Crystal clear in your denominationalized mind, but totally absent in the Bible, like many of your posts.

Like I said, the comma is in the wrong place in Lk 23:43. It should be like this
"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, thou shalt be with me in paradise."
The malefactor first asked to be remembered by Christ in the Kingdom. Since the man was not an Israelite, he could not possibly be in the Kingdom. However, he will see life on the New Earth, where at least part of it, or the New Jerusalem attached to it, will be called paradise. Haven't you ever told someone, "I'm telling you right now,.................... or I'm telling you today,............... I sure have - 100s of times. Same exact thing. It's an idiom that's used 42 times in Deuteronomy and by many people today. Anyone that would believe that Christ and this guy went millions or billions of miles "Today", which ended at sunset, and returned before sunset, so He could be immediately buried as was required, I have this bridge for sale. Although I've always used the KJV, there's no doubt in my mind that it contains many errors, and many involve punctuation, like in Lk 23:43. And, the malefactor certainly didn't go to Heaven, since Jn 3:13, written about 50 years after Christ's crucifixion, says that no one except Christ had ever ascended into Heaven. There is zero proof that that has changed.

Here again, John 3:13 is absolute proof that Paul didn't go to Heaven in 2Cor 12, except IN SPIRIT, like John in Patmos. Also, it was in the future, since the 3rd Heaven, timewise, will be the New Heaven. There was no 3rd Heaven for Paul to actually visit at that time, and there still isn't.

You need to drop all that incorrect bible baggage you've picked up and start over. If you want to learn anything truthful, you must stay out of churches. They never met a Jewish doctrine they didn't steal and pawn off to unknowledgeable Gentiles and they are the #1 reason 99% of Christendom is so totally inept and dumbed down. Sort of like the horrible public school system, in that respect.

 

[amadeus]

God's Tabernacle maybe, but not Noah's ark.

Since God's tabernacle will be New Jerusalem that will come down from Heaven from where God dwells, the Holiest of the Holies, then the city of God would be the Holy Place and the outer courts is the world.

But the two level of heavens as created in Genesis is still separate places from the third Heaven from where God created everything from.

Hmmm? So you have already decided? Is there no room to grow? No room for change?

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

 

[soul man]

And the plot thickens

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Hmmm? So you have already decided? Is there no room to grow? No room for change?

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

Genesis 6:16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

Seeing how Noah and his family has access to all three levels....I would think the allegory regarding the future in how God's tabernacle shall dwell with man would be better since not every one will have access to the third heaven, but the vessels unto honor shall.

 

[Enoch111]

And the plot thickens

As long as it does not become a mishmash.

 

[Helen]

As long as it does not become a mishmash.

 

[amadeus]

Genesis 6:16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

Seeing how Noah and his family has access to all three levels....I would think the allegory regarding the future in how God's tabernacle shall dwell with man would be better since not every one will have access to the third heaven, but the vessels unto honor shall.

What if we are the tabernacle and we have to use what God has given us so that we may move first into 1st heaven and then into 2nd heaven and finally into 3rd heaven?

1st heaven is the place of saved, but unclean beasts.

2nd heaven is the place for the saved beasts who have been cleaned up... but they remain beasts.

3rd heaven is where nothing unclean or with a beast nature is allowed. Only in 3rd heaven will it be possible to see the Father face to face. Who will make it so far and how...?

 

[aspen]

What if we are the tabernacle and we have to use what God has given us so that we may move first into 1st heaven and then into 2nd heaven and finally into 3rd heaven?

1st heaven is the place of saved, but unclean beasts.

2nd heaven is the place for the saved beasts who have been cleaned up... but they remain beasts.

3rd heaven is where nothing unclean or with a beast nature is allowed. Only in 3rd heaven will it be possible to see the Father face to face. Who will make it so far and how...?

Sounds a bit purgatory-ish

Seems to me that Paul was talking about the ground, the sky and beyond - the place God was pictured to live in the minds of the ancients.

 

[amadeus]

Sounds a bit purgatory-ish

Seems to me that Paul was talking about the ground, the sky and beyond - the place God was pictured to live in the minds of the ancients.

Perhaps because we too often are accepting only one interpretation or only looking for only one interpretation we are missing everything God is saying.

The purgatory I see is in us. It is the Holy Spirit in us that is supposed to be purging that which is not pleasing to God: cleaning us up, perfecting us so that we really can be like Him.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." I John 3:2-3

And so the Apostle Paul wrote:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

 

[aspen]

Perhaps because we too often are accepting only one interpretation or only looking for only one interpretation we are missing everything God is saying.

The purgatory I see is in us. It is the Holy Spirit in us that is supposed to be purging that which is not pleasing to God: cleaning us up, perfecting us so that we really can be like Him.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." I John 3:2-3

And so the Apostle Paul wrote:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

It is an interesting perspective. Sanctification does transform us from the inside