The Seed of your Righteousness

[Behold]

My reasoning is based on the word of God, i.e. the Bible, and I consider myself a very logical thinking person (my brother used to call me Spock!)God will leave the judgement to Jesus, and everyone will be judged after they die. "For we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" (Rom 14:10).Yes, they will be judged after they have had a second, or first, chance to believe Jesus. Millions of people have lived and died never having heard of Jesus, and others have heard of him but have not believed. That is what the promised Millennial age is for. To summarise, with Jesus having redeemed all of mankind, the promise is of a Millennial age, a period of a thousand years during which all of mankind will be resurrected and Christ will rule, guiding, teaching and disciplining people until they are restored back to perfection. It will be a long, slow, easy path, taking up to 1,000 years. This Millennial age will become their trial (or judgement day - a 'day' of a thousand years). This trial will be more favourable than the trial which Adam first underwent, because during this time Satan will be bound up (so they will be without his corrupting and deceiving influences), everyone will have full knowledge of God and Jesus, and all will have benefited from the experience of the effects of sin (this is why God has always permitted evil).
At the end of the Millennial age Satan will be freed for a short time, and will once again try and turn mankind away from God. Those who fail this final trial, and side with Satan, will perish. This is the second death from which there is no resurrection, it is an eternal death. Those found worthy will then have eternal life. Satan will be destroyed and there will be no more death, or pain, or unhappiness.
(Heb 2:14) that through death he [Jesus] might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
(Rev 20:7) And after the thousand years, Satan will be released from his prison,
(Rev 20:10) The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur,
After that...
(Rev 20:11) I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it,
(Rev 20:12) I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(Rev 20:15) If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:14) This is the second death, the lake of fire.I think Satan has already been judged and his sentence awaits him. His only hope of keeping his life is to thwart God's plans, but God has told us in His word that Satan will fail, and he will perish (see above Bible verses).
Yes he would, because he is not trying to convert the whole world, he is selecting those who he has foreordained to become members of the body of Christ:
"... to those who are called according to his purpose. For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Whom he predestined, those he also called" (Romans 8:28-30).
Selecting the members of the body of Christ is what the Gospel age is all about. It is "the acceptable year of the Lord" (Luke 4:19), the acceptable time for sacrifices. Not all are called.Heaven or earth, or else you will perish (second death).
The resurrection is a new birth, weather it be a birth as a spirit being to live eternally in heaven, or a birth as a human again to live eternally on the earth. Nobody has been born again yet. Paul said, "For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever" (1Th 4:15-17). This is what is refered to as the rapture, and it clearly has not yet taken place, so all dead Christians are still dead, as are everyone else that has died.You're close, just one word out! it's because they were begotten on earth, just as Jesus was. Note that Paul preaching to his fellow Jews said of Jesus:
(Act 13:30) But God raised him from the dead:
(Act 13:32) And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
(Act 13:33) God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.At Jesus' baptism there was "a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Mat 3:17), that was the day that Jesus was begotten by God.As I quoted above all Christians will "stand before the judgment seat of Christ" (Romans 14:10), whether or not they are begotten again, or born again (although by definition if they are Christians then they have been begotten again). God does not judge you for "not being born again" - where's the logic and common sense in that! And why do born again Christians also "stand before the judgment seat of Christ"? And many die never having heard the Gospel and not having learned about Jesus, but that doesn't make them Christ rejectors.Well thousands may have died, but as to what they are doing -
(Ecc 9:5) the dead know not any thing
(Ecc 9:10) there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.So in death there is only unconsciousness, which is why Jesus refers to those that have died as though they are sleeping, as in John 11:11 - he said to them, “Our friend, Lazarus, has fallen asleep, but I am going so that I may awake him out of sleep.”

YIKES !!!

Your theology is what, book of mormon? JW ??
As its certainly not related to the New Testament Church that Started with Jesus on the Cross that gave us the NT from Paul and the Apostles.

To say that "nobody has been born again yet", is one of the most heretical and Christ rejecting statements ive ever read on a Forum.

I think we can conclude that if you dont believe that you are to be born again on earth, then you are not born again, yet.
So, you are not a Christian.
You are a unsaved heretic, trying to cause confusion on a Christian Forum.

Listen Keithr..

You must be born again on Earth.
If you are not, then you will find this as your eternity. = John 3:36

I would believe that you realize that you have sin......=unforgiven.
So, someone is going to pay for this Sin, Keithr.
Jesus has already paid for your sin, but until you are born again, this forgiveness of your sin, is not happened yet.
If you die, and you have not been born again on earth, .. you have not allowed God's Blood, =Jesus.....to take care of your sin, so that you are not judged for them after you die... And if you remain in this state of unforgiven sin, then Jesus says you will "die in your sins", and you will meet God as your Eternal Judge and you will be judged for Rejecting Christ and not being born again.
Fair warning.
Please hear me.

 

[keithr]

Kither,

Who is that?

The Pharisees hated Jesus for a few reasons, but the biggie, other then envy, was the fact that Jesus claimed to be God.

You should read the Bible more carefully! Jesus never claimed to be God. Read John 10:33-38 again:

The Jews answered him, “We don’t stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy: because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
Jesus answered them, “Isn’t it written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods?’
If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can’t be broken),
do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’
If I don’t do the works of my Father, don’t believe me.
But if I do them, though you don’t believe me, believe the works; that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”​

So Jesus corrected them, and they stood corrected. To Pilate they said, “We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God" (John 19:7). And at his crucification, "Likewise the chief priests also mocking, with the scribes, the Pharisees, and the elders, said, “He saved others, but he can’t save himself. If he is the King of Israel, let him come down from the cross now, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God. Let God deliver him now, if he wants him; for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” (Mat 27:41-43)

So, consider that Paul said that Jesus is God. He defined Him as "GOD manifested IN.....THE......Flesh".

It would be helpful if you would give the Bible reference. I presume you are referring to 1 Ti 3:16, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

So Paul is talking of the mystery of godliness. The rest of the verse clearly refers to Jesus, and he is effectively saying that Jesus manifested to us God's character, or likeness. As Jesus said, "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him" (John 14:7). But Paul never believed or taught that Jesus was God. He said, "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" (1 Cor 8:6). From this is is clear that he did not believe Jesus was God. He often starts his epistles with "Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor 1:3). There are many other verse too, such as "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Eph 1:3), too many to mention right now.

And here it is even more clearly..

When Thomas, one of the original 12 apostles, saw Jesus after Jesus rose from the Dead.....Thomas kneeled before Jesus, and said....."my Lord and MY GOD"..

To Thomas Jesus was a god, but he was not Yahweh, the one and only almighty god, our heavenly Father. The clearest is the words of Jesus himself in John 20:17 ("pay attention reader"!):

Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

 

[Behold]

Who is that?


You should read the Bible more carefully! Jesus never claimed to be God.

I do study it. God said to study it, to show yourself approved.
If you only read it, or worse, as you do, if you never read it, but only read bible commentaries, then you end up, as you are, decived.


Jesus responded and said...>"before Abraham was, I AM".

He's talking to religious Hebrew people, and He's defining exactly who He is....... "I Am"
He uses this statement... "I Am" = because He is talking to those who will understand this term perfectly.
As this term is How God defined Himself to Moses, when Moses asked God "who are you".
God said...."I Am that I AM".

Jesus responded to the Question, with the SAME Answer.

"I AM"

Believe it.
He does.

 

[keithr]

YIKES !!!

Your theology is what, book of mormon?

Definitely not!

JW ??

No, although a lot of their doctrine is correct.

As its certainly not related to the New Testament Church that Started with Jesus on the Cross that gave us the NT from Paul and the Apostles.

It's a lot closer to that than the apostate church that gave us the doctrine of the Trinity, hundreds of years later.

To say that "nobody has been born again yet", is one of the most heretical and Christ rejecting statements ive ever read on a Forum.

This is a Bible Study discussion forum, so why not try and prove your claims from the Bible, as I have been doing to prove what I believe the Bible is saying?

I think we can conclude that if you dont believe that you are to be born again on earth, then you are not born again, yet.

Yes, I've already said I haven't been born again yet, only begotten again. As Jesus said, "Don’t marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’ The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:7,8). Are you able to move about invisibly like the wind? If not then you haven't been born again.

So, you are not a Christian.
You are a unsaved heretic, trying to cause confusion on a Christian Forum.

No, I am a Christian trying to help others understand more correctly God's word by discussing and reasoning in a discussion forum. And hopefully in the process I can learn something more of the meat of God's word too.

Listen Keithr..

You must be born again on Earth.

If you believe that then try to convince me by quoting Bible verses that harmonise with what you claim. Otherwise I will remain unconvinced!

If you die, and you have not been born again on earth, .. you have not allowed God's Blood, =Jesus.....to take care of your sin, so that you are not judged for them after you die...

That's not how Jesus' sacrifice works. We have all sinned, and none of us have been righteous. But through Jesus' sacrifice our sins are forgiven. God calls us and begets us by his word (James 1:18). At that point our sins are forgiven, through the merit of Jesus' sacrifce. Our faith/belief isn't even of our own doing, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph 2:8). Then, "as many as received him, to them gave he power [authority, privilege] to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" (John 1:12). We eventually become adopted as sons of God when we are resurrected (born again). So we don't need to be born again to be saved from our sins, it is after we have been saved from our sins that God graciously gives us a new spiritual body - a new birth.

(John 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.

 

[keithr]

I do study it. God said to study it, to show yourself approved.
If you only read it, or worse, as you do, if you never read it, but only read bible commentaries, then you end up, as you are, decived.

Why are you making such assumptions?! I have read the whole of the Bible.

Jesus responded and said...>"before Abraham was, I AM".

Again, you're not giving Bible references, so I'll give it, so we can look up the context to better understand:

(Joh 8:56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
(Joh 8:57) Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
(Joh 8:58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus responded to the Question, with the SAME Answer.

No, the question that was answered to Moses was "when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?" (Exo 3:13). The question that Jesus is answering is competely different. Jesus said that Abraham foresaw the coming of the Messiah and rejoiced in that knowledge. So the Jews accused Jesus of not being old enough to have met Abraham and know what he thought or said. Jesus replied saying that he was alive even before Abraham was born. The Greek words ego (I) and eimi (to exist), meaning "I have existed" or "I have been present", are not the same as the Hebrew word in Exo 3:15, which is Yahweh:

God said moreover to Moses, “You shall tell the children of Israel this, ‘Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations.​

 

[Behold]

Why are you making such assumptions?! I have read the whole of the Bible.

​

Reading the bible has nothing to do with discerning it, or rightly dividing it, as you keep proving.

Listen, in Genesis, God said...>"Let us make Man in OUR Image".
check the Hebrew.....for an update, if you dont trust the English Translation.

"Our", is not a reference to the angels and Satan and all the host of heaven, because THEY are not created in God's "Image".
Only Man, is Created in God's Image, ..including the 1st Adam and the 2nd Adam, who is God in the Flesh, = Jesus.

So, """""Let us make man in OUR Image"""", is strictly referring to = God the Father and Jesus the WORD, who IS God.

"In the Beginning was the Word and the Word (Jesus Pre-incarnate) was with God, and The Word WAS God".

Here is more for you.
God created all existence by SPEAKING WORDS, and JESUS is THE WORD, that God Spoke, as The Creation.

Notice, Colossians 1:16 that says that "all things were MADE by JESUS....."
So, that is Jesus, God the pre-incarnate WORD, who was "with God, and WAS God", and IS...
That is Jesus as " let us make man in OUR Image".

Notice one more...... John 1:10...."Jesus was IN THE WORLD, and the world was MADE ......By........HIM".

That is Jesus the Man, God in the Flesh, who MADE THE WORLD ....

"Made the WORLD". = the EARTH, the UNIVERSE the COSMOS....all CREATION........everything you SEE.

Do you understand ?

This means that Jesus, as the Pre-Incarnate Word, made the WORLD...because He is GOD the WORD, long before HE was "God manifested in a body"..... 1 Timothy 3:16

 

[keithr]

​

Reading the bible has nothing to do with discerning it, or rightly dividing it, as you keep proving.

You seem to have difficulty reading and understanding what you and I have written, let alone the Bible! I said that I had read the whole Bible because you had accused me of not having read it. You had written "If you only read it, or worse, as you do, if you never read it, but only read bible commentaries"

Listen, in Genesis, God said...>"Let us make Man in OUR Image".
check the Hebrew.....for an update, if you dont trust the English Translation.

We seem to be digressing from the original topic and into a discussion on the Triinity, which I warned earlier is a whole different and large topic to discuss, but never mind, discussing God's word is fun!

I have no argument over God saying "Let’s make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen 1:26).

"Our", is not a reference to the angels and Satan and all the host of heaven, because THEY are not created in God's "Image".
Only Man, is Created in God's Image, ..including the 1st Adam and the 2nd Adam, who is God in the Flesh, = Jesus.

It's quite simple to understand that God was talking to Yeshua (Jesus), his only begotten son, who's character or personality is like God's. Remember what I had quoted previously, John 14:7, "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him.” Better still, in Paul's words Jesus "is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15). Here Paul tells us that not only is Jesus the image of God, but that Jesus was the first born of all creation, i.e. at one time only God existed, then he created Jesus, his only begotten son. God did not create anyone else, he left that to Jesus to perform, hence he said "Let us make man in our image". So at one time there was only God and Jesus, hence John 1:2, "The same was in the beginning with God".

So, """""Let us make man in OUR Image"""", is strictly referring to = God the Father and Jesus the WORD, who IS God.

"In the Beginning was the Word and the Word (Jesus Pre-incarnate) was with God, and The Word WAS God".

Again, you're not providing any Bible references to make it easy for anyone to confirm what you are saying. You are quoting John 1:1.

In order to be sure that we have the correct interpretation of any Bible verse, our interpretation must be in harmony with other Bible verses. The Bible states over and over that Jesus is God's son, and not that he is God. At Jesus' baptism there was even a miraculous audible anouncement declaring such - "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Mat 3:17). God was here clearly saying that Jesus was God's son, and that God was pleased with him. He didn't say "I am here and I'm pleased with myself"!

The King James translation of John 1:1 is a bit misleading here, as it says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. However, a more precise and consistent translation would say, “the Word was with the God, and the Word was a God”. The Hebrew word elohim that is translated as God in the Old Testament is not equivalent to the word Yahweh (God’s name). Its significance is mighty one, and it is frequently used for others beside the almighty Yahweh. It is used for angels, great men and false gods. In the New Testament, the Greek word theos is equivalent to elohim, and signifies “a mighty one”. It’s the word theos that’s used in John 1:1. It was as the Word of God, through whom the world and mankind were created, that Jesus was referred to as a god, but not the God – the Father, or Yahweh. This is consistent with the prophetic words of Psalms 89:19,26,27 - “Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people”, “He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth”.

Some modern Bible translations do translate John 1:1 differently, for example the REB (Revised English Bible, first published in 1989) that says, “In the beginning the Word already was. The Word was in God’s presence, and what God was, the Word was”. This is less misleading than the King James Version of the Bible. The important thing is to realise that the Bible does not contradict itself, so we can use other Scripture verses to help deduce the correct translation of verses like this that can be translated in more than one way. At the time when the King James Version of the Bible was translated (in the sixteenth century) the translators were firmly entrenched in the Trinity doctrine and so they probably thought it was not misleading to translate it the way they did. However, “the Word was God” is inconsistent with verse 14 which declares that Jesus was the only begotten of God ("And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth"); to say that Jesus was God, was begotten by God, and was with God is inconsistent and not possible. The only sensible conclusion is the more correct translation of “the Word was a god”. This correct translation is also confirmed by other scriptures, e.g. Col 1:15-20, which speaking of Jesus says:

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the pre-eminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”

Consider also other verses which John wrote, clearly indicating that he believed that Jesus was God's son who was with God in the beginning:

1 John 1:1-3:
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; ) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

2 John 1:3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

(To be continued.)

 

[keithr]

Here is more for you.
God created all existence by SPEAKING WORDS, and JESUS is THE WORD, that God Spoke, as The Creation.

And here is more for you:

Hebrews 1:1-14:
God, who at many times and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For to which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But to the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy companions. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thy hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall become old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall inherit salvation?

[Note verse 4 – “being made”, and verse 9 “thy God, hath anointed thee”.]

Note also, 1 Cor 15:27, "For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him". So here we have Paul saying that God has put all things under Jesus' authority, but stating that obviously God is not under Jesus' authority. Clearly indicating that Jesus is not God!

This means that Jesus, as the Pre-Incarnate Word, made the WORLD...because He is GOD the WORD, long before HE was "God manifested in a body"..... 1 Timothy 3:16

Yes, Jesus made the world, but he is not "God the Word" - that phrase does not exist in the Bible.

Consider this:

"Beloved, don’t believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit who doesn’t confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God, and this is the spirit of the Antichrist, of whom you have heard that it comes. Now it is in the world already" (1 John 4:1-3).

This doesn't say that we should believe that God has come in the flesh, it says we should believe that Jesus has come in the flesh. By denying that Jesus is God's only begotten son, whom by God's hand was transformed from a spirit being to a human being, and who came and dwelt on earth, was killed but God then restored him to life, transforming him into a spirit being now having the same immortal nature as God himself, well that is the spirit of Antichrist - denying who Christ really is.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Keithr, I hope and pray the eyes of your understanding will be opened. I have read, and seen you disregard and toss aside Bible references given to you and single out only the ones that support what you want to believe. That's extremely dangerous, as doing so leads to deception. Take Adam and Eve in the garden. The Word says that Adam willfully sinned but Eve was deceived. How was she deceived? She somehow had a version of God's instruction that was not identical to what He originally said. God said they should not EAT of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But when the serpent tempted her, she quoted something different ...."neither shall ye touch it lest ye die." God didn't say that. And because she didn't die when she touched it, doubt entered her mind. So, she took the fruit and ate it. The downfall was in adding something to what God said. This is why we should not add to or take away from what God says. It leads to deception. ALL of God's Word fits together. We can't leave the parts out we disagree with.

 

[keithr]

I have read, and seen you disregard and toss aside Bible references given to you and single out only the ones that support what you want to believe.

I have not "tossed aside" any Bible references. Just because I may not have commented on every single Bible reference doesn't mean I have ignored them! Please give examples of what you mean, especially if you would like me to comment on those Bible references.

Eve was deceived. How was she deceived? She somehow had a version of God's instruction that was not identical to what He originally said. God said they should not EAT of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But when the serpent tempted her, she quoted something different ...."neither shall ye touch it lest ye die." God didn't say that. And because she didn't die when she touched it, doubt entered her mind. So, she took the fruit and ate it. The downfall was in adding something to what God said. This is why we should not add to or take away from what God says. It leads to deception. ALL of God's Word fits together. We can't leave the parts out we disagree with.

As you have described something in the Bible, although not quite a Bible reference, I'll respond to that.

The reference is from Genesis 3, first six verses:

1) Now the serpent was more subtle than any animal of the field which Yahweh God had made. He said to the woman, “Has God really said, ‘You shall not eat of any tree of the garden’?”
2) The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees of the garden,
3) but not the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden. God has said, ‘You shall not eat of it. You shall not touch it, lest you die.’”
4) The serpent said to the woman, “You won’t really die,
5) for God knows that in the day you eat it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6) When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took some of its fruit, and ate; and she gave some to her husband with her, and he ate it, too.

Verse 6 clearly states the reason that Eve chose to eat the fruit. It does not say that doubt entered her mind because she didn't die when touching it (would you risk touching something just to see if you would die or not if you thought there was a strong chance that you would die?!). It clearly states that she took and ate the fruit because she saw that it was good for food (perhaps she had not gone closely enough to see what it looked like before, but now she could see that it "was a delight to the eyes"), and Satan (through the serpent) tempted and deceived her by saying that she wouldn't die if she ate it and eating it would make her wise, "like God, knowing good and evil". She had probably not been exposed to lies and deception before, but her mistake was to believe the serpent (Satan) rather than God (although Satan was talking directly to her, whereas she received the command to not eat the fruit from Adam, rather than directly from God - and perhaps Adam didn't refer to it as "the tree of knowledge of good and evil", but just told her not to eat it or she would die, and just to be sure to not touch it!).

BTW, there were two trees in the middle of the garden - "Now the Tree of Life was in the middle of the garden, and also the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" (Gen 2:9 TLV). God only told Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (verse 17), so they were able to eat of the tree of life which was nearby to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So it may have been that while Eve was eating some fruit from the tree of life that the serpent called out to her to tempt her to go closer to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Anyway, the verses that you alluded to don't support your what you claimed it did. Eve's downfall wasn't adding to what God said, it was in believing the serpent and disobeying the command that she knew God had given. She believed Satan's lie that "You won’t really die", and therefore believed that God had lied, and she fell for Satan's deception that it would be to her benefit to eat the fruit.

I may agree with your comment that we should not add to or take away from what God has said, but the passage that you used to make that point isn't really appropriate!

 

[TLHKAJ]

True, she saw the fruit "was good for food" ...but what would you be thinking if you'd bee. Told not to touch something or you'd die, and then you touch it and nothing happens? That was not what God told them. He said not to eat it. The Bible doesn't say that He told them not to touch it.

 

[marks]

was killed but God then restored him to life, transforming him into a spirit being now having the same immortal nature as God himself, well that is the spirit of Antichrist - denying who Christ really is.

Are you saying here that Jesus became immortal through His resurrection?

Much love!

 

[Behold]

You seem to have difficulty reading and understanding what you and I have written, let alone the Bible! I said that I had read the whole Bible because you had accused me of not having read it.

(To be continued.)

No, i never accused you of not reading the bible, as you said you read it.
I said that reading it is not going to help you, because God says to Study to show yourself approved.
"rightly dividing" comes from God, but its though study.
Reading the bible, wont deliver this to you.

 

[Behold]

Yes, Jesus made the world, but he is not "God the Word" /QUOTE]

Next.....

 

[Behold]

And here is more for you:
Yes, Jesus made the world, but he is not "God the Word" - that phrase does not exist in the Bible.

You actually sit there and state that Jesus Created the World, as only GOD could do this, and yet, you claim Jesus is not God.

Your logic is damaged, and your common sense is not being engaged.
You are stuck in verses that you dont understand, trying to prove that you dont understand them.
You've proven it.

 

[keithr]

True, she saw the fruit "was good for food" ...but what would you be thinking if you'd bee. Told not to touch something or you'd die, and then you touch it and nothing happens? That was not what God told them. He said not to eat it. The Bible doesn't say that He told them not to touch it.

You're not reading what the Bible says. The touching is irrelevant. Its says, "When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took some of its fruit, and ate" (Gen 3:6). It doesn't say that she touched it and noticed that she didn't die! It says that she looked at the tree, and thought that it would make her wise if she ate some of its fruit, so THEN she took some fruit and ate it.

 

[keithr]

Are you saying here that Jesus became immortal through His resurrection?

Yes, effectively. Jesus was mortal before his resurrection. When on the earth in human form, he was exactly like us physically. If he could be transformed into a mortal man then he must have been mortal beforehand (immortal means that's it's impossible for you to die). Php 2:7-11 says that Jesus "emptied himself [made himself of no reputation], taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross. Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name; that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father". The main difference between Jesus and all other men is that while here on earth in human form, Jesus remained sinless (Heb 4:15, he was "one who has been in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin").

A digression!:
Because he was without sin (Heb 4:15) he was an acceptable substitute for Adam, for Adam was without sin before he sinned, and only a sinless perfect man could become a substitute and pay Adam's penalty for sin (death) in his place, and thereby redeem (buy back) Adam's right to life. Everyone else has died because they were born imperfect and with a sinful nature, inherited from Adam and Eve (because after Adam and Eve sinned they became imperfect and began decaying and dying [and were barred from access to the Tree of Life - Gen 3:22,23] - Gen 2:17, footnote, "in the day that thou eatest thereof dying thou shalt die"). The merit of Jesus' sacrifice therefore not only buys back Adam's right to life, but also all of his descendants.

So Jesus paid the penalty of death for Adam and all of mankind. But because Jesus had not sinned, God deemed it right that Jesus should be restored to life again. Jesus said, "On this account the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have authority to lay it down and I have authority to take it again. I have received this commandment of my Father" (John 10:17,18).

When Jesus was praying in the garden at Gethsemane, Luke tells us (Luke 22:44) that Jesus "Being in agony he prayed more earnestly. His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground". Apparrently when we are under great mental stress we can sweat blood, and this verse demonstrates the severe mental agony that Jesus was in. Why? Because if he had sinned in any way then he would not be able to become a sacrifice for mankind and no human could have eternal life. Moreover, if he had sinned then he too would have remained dead after his imminent crucifixion, and God would not have resurrected him.

Jesus also prayed (John 17:5), "Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed". So Jesus humbly prayed that our Father (God) would restore him to the same spiritual (but mortal) nature that he had before God transformed him into a man. However, as it says in Php 2:9, quoted above, God instead highly exalted him, and that Jesus is now immortal. Jesus confirmed his immortality when he said to John in Rev 1:18, "I was dead, and behold, I am alive forever and ever". Aslo Paul tells us Christians that "this mortal must put on immortality" (1Co 15:53), saying that we will become immortal when we are resurrected. But we are not superior to our master Jesus, we are following in his footsteps, so Jesus too must now be immortal.

 

[keithr]

No, i never accused you of not reading the bible, as you said you read it.

What you said was, "or worse, as you do, if you never read it, but only read bible commentaries". So you said that I never read the Bible. I replied that I have read the whole Bible. I can also confirm that I do continue reading the Bible (all those Bible verses that I have quoted in this thread, and many more, I read before posting them!).

I said that reading it is not going to help you, because God says to Study to show yourself approved.

To be precise, it was Paul who wrote a letter to Timothy and told him "Give diligence to present yourself approved by God, a workman who doesn’t need to be ashamed, properly handling the Word of Truth" (2Ti 2:15, WEB). The KJV translates it as "Study to shew thyself approved", but the Hebrew word (spoudazo) that's translated as study according to Strong's Concordance means "to hasten, to make haste" or "to exert one's self, endeavour, give diligence". In the KJV of the 11 times the word occurs it is translated "endeavour" 3 times, "do diligence" 2 times, "be diligent" 2 times, "give diligence" once, "be forward" once, "labour" once, and "study" also just once (in this verse). I do give a lot of diligence and careful study of the Bible before I reply to this discussion, for I want to be as sure as I can that I am only truthfully telling what the Bible says.

"rightly dividing" comes from God, but its though study.
Reading the bible, wont deliver this to you.

A bit of study reveals that the words "rightly dividing" is translated from the Hebrew word orthotomeo, which Strong's Concordance says means:

1) to cut straight, to cut straight ways
1a) to proceed on straight paths, hold a straight course, equivalent to doing right
2) to make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly​

Various other translations (in addition to the WEB above) are:

"handling aright the word of truth" (ASV)
"cutting straight the word of the truth" (Diaglott)
"cutting in a straight line the word of truth" (Darby)
"cutting a straight path with the word of truth" (TLV)
"handling the word of truth with precision" (ISV)

That is what I endeavour to do - to handle aright with precision the word of truth.

 

[keithr]

You actually sit there and state that Jesus Created the World, as only GOD could do this, and yet, you claim Jesus is not God.

Where does it say in the Bible that only God could create the world? I believe it was God's design and instructions, but he asked Jesus to do the creating. Col 1:16 (WEB) tells us that "For by him [Jesus] all things were created ... all things have been created through him, and for him", so that "that in all things he might have the preeminence (verse 18), "For it was the good pleasure of the Father that in him should all the fulness dwell" (verse 19 ASV).

Remember that verse you quoted earlier, Gen 1:26, "God said, “Let us make man in our image”". God was telling His son what his plans were and said "Let us make", similar to a human father working with his son to make something, leaving it to his son to do the work, and giving guiding instructions while watching over him. In this case God wanted Jesus to do all the creating because he wanted Jesus to have the preeminence, meaning that he wanted Jesus to be extremely distinguished, outstanding, and superior to all others.

Likewise consider (1 Cor 15:27,28):

For, “He [God] put all things in subjection under his [Jesus'] feet.” But when he says, “All things are put in subjection”, it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him.
When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.​

Your logic is damaged, and your common sense is not being engaged.
You are stuck in verses that you dont understand, trying to prove that you dont understand them.
You've proven it.

I beg to differ!

 

[marks]

So Jesus paid the penalty of death for Adam and all of mankind. But because Jesus had not sinned, God deemed it right that Jesus should be restored to life again. Jesus said, "On this account the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have authority to lay it down and I have authority to take it again. I have received this commandment of my Father" (John 10:17,18).

Hi keithr,

Thank you for a good response!

I think of this more that God Eternal put Himself into a mortal human body for the purposes of offering it in death.

Other views are polythiestic I think.

Much love!