"The Sin Of The World"

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marks

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After the fall, why could humanity not keep the law (no one could),what was the cause? When we say "because they were disobedient" is true but what happened to them when they ate from the tree of good and evil. They received a root" it's a principal of God (everything has a root) what was it the root?
Hi soul man,

My understanding is . . .

that when Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he gained the knowledge of good and evil. And this changed his entire perspective about himself, and his life.

Before Adam would have accepted everything the same, in complete innocence, never considering whether something was good or evil.

After eating, he looked at himself and judged himself to be naked, and that this was evil, and attempted to cover himself, thereby doing good, so that he could compensate for his evil.

And he knew his evil rendered him guilty, so he hid himself.

Now, whether this is all about what happened to his brain, as his new type of thinking and acting began to write itself in his neurons, whether this introduced a genetic change, I have no idea. But that life lived in innocence was lost.

Everyone ever since has done exactly the same, living their lives judging themselves, and knowing they are guilty, and always finding what they know to be evil in them, and hiding from God.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Possibly Giuliano, but I would say that the correlation that you're giving it, is entirely subjective. Yes, as far as I am concerned, you are absolutely correct in your conclusion, but I would hesitate to believe that that was the authorial intent, necessarily? Proposing that the invasive thorns and thistles that are introduced in Genesis 3, are alluding to Jesus' thorny crown that was mockingly given to him by the abusive Roman soldiers, I think lacks a strong enough analogy to be considered an authentic shadow or type?
I can't seem to overlook the connection myself. Thorns are the result of the curse, and thorns crown our Savior on His way to the cross.

The ram caught in the thorns.

You can add the the ram Abraham saw caught in thorns. Then too the bush that the LORD appeared in to Moses was a thornbush, showing that God can manifest in the lowliest of things.

The burning bush . . . Our God is a consuming fire, but the bush is not consumed. No one has seen God at any time, but Jesus reveals Him, sent not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Did God not intend us to make these connections?

Much love!
 

Enoch111

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How is the sin of the world dealt with; by crucifying "the sin nature."
That is only one part of taking away the sin of the world. Another part is the payment of the full penalty for sins. Another part is the shedding of the blood of Christ for (1) remission of sins, (2) cleansing the soul from sin and guilt, (3) ongoing cleansing of sins after confession.
 
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DNB

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What if these Laws were given to a humanity that was hopelessly ruined, but refused to accept that truth? And that God wanted people to see how deeply fallen in sin they are?

Much love!
Perception is one thing, the pain of death is another.
You are being so casual about something that has extremely serious overtones and ramifications.
 

DNB

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I can't seem to overlook the connection myself. Thorns are the result of the curse, and thorns crown our Savior on His way to the cross.
The ram caught in the thorns.
The burning bush . . . Our God is a consuming fire, but the bush is not consumed. No one has seen God at any time, but Jesus reveals Him, sent not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Did God not intend us to make these connections?
Where does it end, how far will one go, to what extent will one be dogmatic or doctrinal about it, etc...

Way too many similarities throughout the Bible, that the key word is restraint.
The withered fig tree, the leper's withered hand?
Mud to open the blind man's eyes, Jesus drawing in the dirt during the woman caught in adultery episode?
Jacob slept on a rock, altar in the tabernacle made of unhewn rock, God says 'I am a rock', Peter called a rock, Stephen stoned to death with rocks, ...
Water of the deluge, miraculous water at Meriba & Rephidim, Moses parted the water, Jesus turned water to wine, Jesus walking on water, water baptism, water separating the waters in Genesis, Pharaoh's soldiers drowned in the water, Jonah thrown in the water, ...
Jesus called lion of tribe of Judah, lion devoured prophet of God from altar at Bethel.
Locusts were one of the plagues upon Egypt, God will send locusts to destroy the nations (Joel), John the Baptist ate locusts and wild honey, ...
 

marks

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Perception is one thing, the pain of death is another.
You are being so casual about something that has extremely serious overtones and ramifications.
I don't mean to sound casual. That death has already come upon all men. In Adam, all die. It's already happened.

Now all men need to come to understand the absolute hopelessness of their plight.

To help mankind reach that conclusion, God subjected the world to vanity, that whatever we put together for ourselves, and whatever comes our way in life, there will always be something to take that away, and in the end, no one leaves with anything.

And God gave the Law, and wrote the work of the law on people's hearts, so they would know what was wrong, only to find that their desire for wrong multiplied.

The pain of death came first, I'm afraid, and now we have to rework our perceptions.

Much love!
 

DNB

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Dogmatic? Doctrinal? No. Illustrative.

Much love!
Well then, this is a moot point, whatever works for one person is fine then... NOT, this is how the KJVO people justify their exclusivity.
They claim that any reference to Egypt in the Bible always initially has a bad connotation, therefore nothing good can come out of Egypt i.e. Alexandrian text-type.
You see how subjective, and therefore precarious, this type of hermeneutics can be.
 

DNB

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I don't mean to sound casual. That death has already come upon all men. In Adam, all die. It's already happened.

Now all men need to come to understand the absolute hopelessness of their plight.

To help mankind reach that conclusion, God subjected the world to vanity, that whatever we put together for ourselves, and whatever comes our way in life, there will always be something to take that away, and in the end, no one leaves with anything.

And God gave the Law, and wrote the work of the law on people's hearts, so they would know what was wrong, only to find that their desire for wrong multiplied.

The pain of death came first, I'm afraid, and now we have to rework our perceptions.

Much love!
Yes, the Law elicits sin, as Paul rather profoundly expounded upon. He did not say that man was innately evil clearly, he said that the flesh is at enmity with the spirit, not the human mind with God, as you seem to be professing (fallen nature).
 

marks

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Yes, the Law elicits sin, as Paul rather profoundly expounded upon. He did not say that man was innately evil clearly, he said that the flesh is at enmity with the spirit, not the human mind with God, as you seem to be professing (fallen nature).
Curious . . . what do these statements that I'm bolding mean to you?

Romans 5
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Much love!
 

marks

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Well then, this is a moot point, whatever works for one person is fine then... NOT, this is how the KJVO people justify their exclusivity.
They claim that any reference to Egypt in the Bible always initially has a bad connotation, therefore nothing good can come out of Egypt i.e. Alexandrian text-type.
You see how subjective, and therefore precarious, this type of hermeneutics can be.
I wasn't saying anything like that.

Out of Egypt I have called my son. Something good CAN come from Egypt!

Much love!
 

marks

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Yes, the Law elicits sin, as Paul rather profoundly expounded upon. He did not say that man was innately evil clearly, he said that the flesh is at enmity with the spirit, not the human mind with God, as you seem to be professing (fallen nature).
Romans 8
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

I always like the NLT for this part . . .

7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will.

But I don't see this as a "fallen nature" so much as a corrupted flesh. I think that is how the Bible speaks of this, that our bodies have become corrupted, and now have corrupt desires which, when we follow them, are sin.

Before being born again, that's all we could do, we had no other option but to follow the desires of our flesh, and the mind of our flesh.

Much love!
 

Giuliano

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I can't seem to overlook the connection myself. Thorns are the result of the curse, and thorns crown our Savior on His way to the cross.

The ram caught in the thorns.



The burning bush . . . Our God is a consuming fire, but the bush is not consumed. No one has seen God at any time, but Jesus reveals Him, sent not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Did God not intend us to make these connections?

Much love!
I think there are more connections. Sometimes they aren't mentioned explicitly. We don't read about Jesus on the cross as the "Lamb of God." We're given other details which suggest it -- it was Passover time. None of his bones was broken. We were told earlier that Jesus was called "Lamb" by John the Baptist, but he's not explicitly called that in descriptions of the crucifixion.

No lamb is mentioned being tangled with thorns in Exodus; but sheep are there since Moses had led a flock of sheep to Mount Horeb.

It gets more interesting when we realize mountains or hills are in the other passages too. Abraham find the Ram on a mountain, and Jesus was crucified on a hill -- I can't think of a Scripture that explicitly says Golgotha was a hill or mount, but I think it was, wasn't it? It's meant to tell us something -- it's more than details about the physical world -- there's probably doctrine in it. I see that as expressing "draw nigh unto God, and God will draw nigh unto you." We cannot rise up to Heaven on our power, but if we rise as much as we can, God may come down to meet us. So the 120 were in an "upper room."

Yes, the fire did not consume. In a way, we are meant to become a tree ourselves -- taking up our own crosses to follow Jesus. The mustard seed became first an herb -- and then a tree? That can't be talking a physical mustard plant. It has to be talking about a spiritual tree. You can think of it two ways -- we are on the tree, or we become the tree. The burning bush shows me how the Holy Spirit can fill a human without damaging anything.

I believe the Sacred Flames consume only those elements which resist the Flames of Love. People who cling to their sinful urges will suffer in hellfire; but those flames are the Sacred Flames of Love. It shows how God manifests even in hell. I think a saint could walk through hell without harm or pain. Only that which resists the Love of God would feel anguish; and if the person still clings to the sinful urges, they are consumed, burnt up completely.

The saint should be ready to sacrifice anything and everything -- to the Sacred Fire. Then it is not destroyed the same way. It is destroyed in the sense that sinful urges no longer exist as sinful urges -- they are changed into the "Power of God." Satan stole that strength or energy, but it can be returned to its godly state. The "strength" in those urges is retained. People who have a lot of spiritual strength and who have sinned greatly can become awesome saints. Think of Peter. We shouldn't look down on him. We should want to follow his example of being corrected. If there is something satanic about us, Jesus would be doing us a favor to point it out so we can allow God to change it.

The power of death and hell can be changed back to what God intended in the first place. Death may reside within us, but it can be defeated and changed. Here and now.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Yes, God could give us power from Himself, but we already have a lot of spiritual power hidden within us in a corrupted form -- and if that can be changed, the world is better off for it. There will be less "death and hell" to be thrown into the lake of fire later. Yes, of course, we must receive "new tongues" also -- pure tongues, clean lips -- and that we cannot do ourselves. We cannot "tame" our own tongues. We must repent of sins and then wait "in the Upper Room" drawing nigh to God -- and perchance the Holy Fire will come down. It will give us new tongues that do not speak as Adam and Eve's did after they fell. That urge to pass the buck is gone: If we make a mistake, we want to know it and admit it so we can fix it and not do it again -- we don't want to blame others as Adam and Eve did.
 
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Giuliano

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Remember Adam and Eve were not created without a spirit as far as we see in scripture. They were living souls with the ability to contain spirit (created to contain spirit), apparently because of the way scripture reads after the fall because man is triune now not in the beginning. Any thoughts?
I still lack an answer to the question, "Would God have forgiven Adam and Eve if they had repented?"

It seems to me that they did die spiritually immediately after eating the fruit. Their bodies were still alive, but they had died spiritually. Maybe God could have forgiven them at that point; but then they lied to God, or at least failed to tell the truth simply. They tried to deceive God just as Saul did when he lied and when Ananias and Sapphira lied. If the Holy Spirit is in someone, and you lie to that person, you are in effect also lying to God too.

Adam and Eve did not lie to another person; they lied directly to God. The Holy Spirit fled from them -- they had condemned themselves. They had the Spirit themselves, they knew better or should have. It is spiritual insanity to believe we can lie to God. Maybe God could forgive that sin if the person who committed it was sane enough to repent; but he's insane spiritually in a way. He's driven God away and filled himself with some deceiving spirit.

I am left believing they could have been forgiven since we are told God always is willing to forgive us when we repent; but something had happened to them that tempted them to be dishonest with God. I think it was more than "eating" the fruit that sealed their fate. That could have been forgiven. The curse of death could have been removed. It was not what went into them that defiled them but what came out. When lying words came out of them, their defilement was final.

Mark 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
 
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DNB

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Curious . . . what do these statements that I'm bolding mean to you?

Romans 5
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Much love!
Well, obviously guilt and condemnation as it states, not depravity and wretchedness. How can eating a fruit change one's constitution as such? God did not plant a tree that subverted man's mind, He doesn't have the capability nor the nefarious purpose to do so.
 

DNB

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I wasn't saying anything like that.

Out of Egypt I have called my son. Something good CAN come from Egypt!

Much love!
That's you and me talking, but your hermeneutics in the hands of incompetent exegetes leads to such idiocracies. I'm am saying stay away from personal and subjective shadowing and typologies. Let the inspired writers interpret and correlate such verses.
 

DNB

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Romans 8
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

I always like the NLT for this part . . .

7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will.

But I don't see this as a "fallen nature" so much as a corrupted flesh. I think that is how the Bible speaks of this, that our bodies have become corrupted, and now have corrupt desires which, when we follow them, are sin.

Before being born again, that's all we could do, we had no other option but to follow the desires of our flesh, and the mind of our flesh.

Much love!
No, from the beginning of time men have followed after the spirit in one manner or another. They have missed the target in countless efforts, but clearly displayed that the spirit is alive and kicking in man. Even the atheists have performed acts of altruism and charity, love their children, friends and families. The Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, etc, all clearly have written words of wisdom, doxologies, praise to God, love for man and one another, inspirations that come from the spirit (image of God), and yet, these all are not eligible for the Holy Spirit (not born again).
You're missing the elephant in the room.
 

Giuliano

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Not really. The warning was given by God because the curse of death was inevitable for disobedience.
Curses can be removed. I think they had already died -- but God could have given them life again. We see they didn't repent however; they tried to pass the buck.

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.