"The Sin Of The World"

[marks]

...as in eternal death - Lake of Fire. Not dead in heart.

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Colossians 2:13 "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses"

This part . . . the uncircumcision of your flesh . . . I think this is speaking about the fact that before we are reborn, all we have is our flesh, and the mind of our flesh, and this condition is being dead, that is, disconnected from God.

We have to have the flesh "cut away", I believe this is what our rebirth is. We die with Christ, which separates us from our flesh, and rise with Him, having a new life that is not based in our bodies, but is based in His Spirit. Though we continue to be housed in our bodies.

Much love!

 

[DNB]

Where to you seen an expression of perceived injustice? Would you pinpoint that in the passage for me?

Much love!

Sorry, I may have been confusing two separate principles, as far as explicit is concerned. But, Romans 5, does imply that Paul is justifying the austerity of God's decision (the gift outweighed the penalty).
See bolded for the judicial aspect of God's judgement.

Romans 5:12-21
5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21. so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[DNB]

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

I think this passage shows these things.

Much love!

I appreciate your position to a certain extent, but predominantly, I think that you are misconstruing death and flesh with constitution or ontology, not free will and desire.

 

[DNB]

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Colossians 2:13 "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses"

This part . . . the uncircumcision of your flesh . . . I think this is speaking about the fact that before we are reborn, all we have is our flesh, and the mind of our flesh, and this condition is being dead, that is, disconnected from God.

We have to have the flesh "cut away", I believe this is what our rebirth is. We die with Christ, which separates us from our flesh, and rise with Him, having a new life that is not based in our bodies, but is based in His Spirit. Though we continue to be housed in our bodies.

Much love!

Nothing evil about flesh, everything that God created was good. It's when one indulges in the desires of the flesh, and does not transcend them, he is 'of the flesh'. The Spirit is at enmity with the flesh. Therefore, since we are both, being created in the image of God and made corporeal, God is exhorting that we desire the things of the Spirit, not the flesh.

Genesis 9:6-6
9:6. "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

 

[marks]

The way that you speak, sin should increase exponentially then, till the point that there's no goodness left.

Well, there's this . . .

Genesis 6
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

It happened then.

I think this happens throughout history, that people get worse and worse until God sends a plague or something to get people's attention. And revival comes, but humanity continues to deteriorate, down to the end, when God calls it quits on this age.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Nothing evil about flesh, everything that God created was good. It's when one indulges in the desires of the flesh, and does not transcend them, he is 'of the flesh'. The Spirit is at enmity with the flesh. Therefore, since we are both, being created in the image of God and made corporeal, God is exhorting that we desire the things of the Spirit, not the flesh.

Genesis 9:6-6
9:6. "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

Why does the flesh have evil desires? If all God made was good, and the flesh wasn't corrupted? Where do those desires come from?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Sorry, I may have been confusing two separate principles, as far as explicit is concerned. But, Romans 5, does imply that Paul is justifying the austerity of God's decision (the gift outweighed the penalty).
See bolded for the judicial aspect of God's judgement.

Romans 5:12-21
5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21. so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I see this more as a comparison between the act of disobedience by Adam and the act of obedience by Jesus Christ. Adam's transgression did all this bad, but even as bad as all that is, the good accomplished by Jesus' obedience is so much more so.

Although that's not against your comment. Yes, I agree, there are judicial aspects here.

Even though they sinned, their sin is not judicially counted against them. They still die, because sin kills. But judicially, they are not counted guilty. Should we expect to see these in the resurrection? I think so.

I see Adam and Christ as the Two Men, the first man, and the last Man, one from the earth, one from heaven. In Adam, we are condemned, corrupted, and dead. In Christ, we are justified, sanctified, and alive.

1 Corinthians 15
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Much love!

 

[DNB]

Well, there's this . . .

Genesis 6
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

It happened then.

I think this happens throughout history, that people get worse and worse until God sends a plague or something to get people's attention. And revival comes, but humanity continues to deteriorate, down to the end, when God calls it quits on this age.

Much love!

so free will still exists.

 

[DNB]

Why does the flesh have evil desires? If all God made was good, and the flesh wasn't corrupted? Where do those desires come from?

Much love!

it's obviously figurative, marks. When one's mind is on the flesh, hedonism, it's derived from evil.

 

[DNB]

I see this more as a comparison between the act of disobedience by Adam and the act of obedience by Jesus Christ. Adam's transgression did all this bad, but even as bad as all that is, the good accomplished by Jesus' obedience is so much more so.

Although that's not against your comment. Yes, I agree, there are judicial aspects here.

Even though they sinned, their sin is not judicially counted against them. They still die, because sin kills. But judicially, they are not counted guilty. Should we expect to see these in the resurrection? I think so.

I see Adam and Christ as the Two Men, the first man, and the last Man, one from the earth, one from heaven. In Adam, we are condemned, corrupted, and dead. In Christ, we are justified, sanctified, and alive.

1 Corinthians 15
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Much love!

I don't believe that man was created immortal. Obviously a body as corporeal and high maintenance as ours, is not designed for eternity. Death does not imply corrupt, it was a penalty, expulsion from the Tree of Life.

 

[marks]

it's obviously figurative, marks. When one's mind is on the flesh, hedonism, it's derived from evil.

In the many places it's used, I don't see it figurative. It's always of the body, or related to physical anscestry, or like that.

Have you ever looked at every instance of "Sarx" in the New Testament? This is one of the first things I like to do when I'm looking at how to understand the words.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I don't believe that man was created immortal. Obviously a body as corporeal and high maintenance as ours, is not designed for eternity. Death does not imply corrupt, it was a penalty, expulsion from the Tree of Life.

Why do you suppose it is that all people, without exception, sin?

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

Why do you suppose it is that all people, without exception, sin?

Much love!

How can you be certain that no man through the power of the Holy Ghost has not overcome the temptations that when followed, lead to sin? Is God unable to overcome the world in each of us? Or may it be that we, any of us who still sin, refuse to let Him work His work to completion? Sounds a bit like the repeated rebellions of the children of Israel in wilderness. They had their 10 rebellions and then the door for them was closed!

 

[DNB]

In the many places it's used, I don't see it figurative. It's always of the body, or related to physical anscestry, or like that.

Have you ever looked at every instance of "Sarx" in the New Testament? This is one of the first things I like to do when I'm looking at how to understand the words.

Much love!

Context defines a word, not etymology.

 

[DNB]

Why do you suppose it is that all people, without exception, sin?

Much love!

...and some more than others, to immeasurable degrees. One cannot quantify such a disposition as you are trying to do. Just the fact that some believe in God, and others don't, some are Christians, some are not, some are nasty people, others are altruistic, ...
It's way more complicated than you are trying to define it. Some love their children or spouses, others will have them murdered, or murder them themselves,...
You are not thinking your proposition through in a comprehensive manner. No one has a quantifiable degree of sin within them, in the manner that you think that one sin induces another sin, even in one's offspring.

 

[marks]

Context defines a word, not etymology.

It's a good exercise I think. Very eye opening.

What I look at are contexts that require a certain meaning, and contexts that allow various meanings. We can understand the more ambiguous by the less ambiguous.

Just a suggestion!

Much love!

 

[marks]

How can you be certain that no man through the power of the Holy Ghost has not overcome the temptations that when followed, lead to sin? Is God unable to overcome the world in each of us?

Is there anyone save Jesus who has lived a life free from sin? All have sinned, have they not?

Much love!

 

[marks]

You are not thinking your proposition through in a comprehensive manner. No one has a quantifiable degree of sin within them, in the manner that you think that one sin induces another sin, even in one's offspring.

Are you saying that not everyone has sinned?

I'm not talking about how much. Someone who has suffered a childhood of abuse, and someone who has had a major drug addiction, and someone who has lived an overall healthy life will all have very different experiences with sin. But regardless of whatever advantage one may have in life, all sin. Why is that?

Much love!

 

[DNB]

It's a good exercise I think. Very eye opening.

What I look at are contexts that require a certain meaning, and contexts that allow various meanings. We can understand the more ambiguous by the less ambiguous.

Just a suggestion!

Much love!

Sorry marks, I actually profoundly disagree. There may be cases where one verse may compliment another by the similarity of expressions or words, but this is nothing more than coincidence. Yes, some author may have a certain style where they use words in an irregular or unique manner than the other authors. But, most inspired writers never leave one hanging for interpretation, requiring the reader to go to another verse in order to get the meaning of what he so solicitously is trying to convey. The context, as a rule, should always take precedence.

 

[amadeus]

Is there anyone save Jesus who has lived a life free from sin? All have sinned, have they not?

Much love!

If we, ourselves, are flawed still, how would we know when we saw such a person? I have met a very few people over the years who may have qualified, but I did not see all of their hearts. People on this forum and others over the years have often said, 'there is no one who does not sin at all'. I say that to even say that is to support a negative faith... Do we not so limit God even as did the children of Israel in the wilderness? Saying God cannot do it makes it so for us. Did not Jesus say... "According to your faith be it unto you"? [see Matt 9:29]

Do we lack faith? How about these words spoke to Jesus?

"And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." Mark 9:24

The man believed and Jesus took up the slack.

"When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him." Mark 9:25