"The Sin Of The World"

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DNB

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Are you saying that not everyone has sinned?

I'm not talking about how much. Someone who has suffered a childhood of abuse, and someone who has had a major drug addiction, and someone who has lived an overall healthy life will all have very different experiences with sin. But regardless of whatever advantage one may have in life, all sin. Why is that?

Much love!
That is a very good question, ...God made it so. The flesh is at enmity with the spirit. When a child is born, God does not intervene immediately into his life, pronouncing His existence, and all his ordinances. The child has years to go, years of desensitizing and seduction, before even the notion of God enters his mind. Even nature instills a hardship and cruelty into one's mind, if there is no wise person to explain why there exists such an antithetical creation to God's character.
There are many environmental factors that corrupt people from birth, and plus their corporeal ontology. Again, God does not reveal Himself immediately to all newborns in order to set them on the proper path from inception into the world.
The issue is environmental, not intrinsic.
 

marks

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'there is no one who does not sin at all'. I say that to even say that is to support a negative faith...
For me, it's just a matter of what the Bible says. I don't have a dog in the fight. But it's the truth that sets us free, so having the wrong idea about something won't help us.

But again, I just look at a place that says all have sinned, and I just accept that to be true.

Much love!
 

marks

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Sorry marks, I actually profoundly disagree. There may be cases where one verse may compliment another by the similarity of expressions or words, but this is nothing more than coincidence. Yes, some author may have a certain style where they use words in an irregular or unique manner than the other authors. But, most inspired writers never leave one hanging for interpretation, requiring the reader to go to another verse in order to get the meaning of what he so solicitously is trying to convey. The context, as a rule, should always take precedence.
What I'm saying is the context won't change the meaning of the word, it will show the nuance. It will show how it's applied, but it won't change the meaning.

Or, here is a different study . . . What do these mean?

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Colossians 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Much love!
 

amadeus

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For me, it's just a matter of what the Bible says. I don't have a dog in the fight. But it's the truth that sets us free, so having the wrong idea about something won't help us.

But again, I just look at a place that says all have sinned, and I just accept that to be true.

Much love!
All have sinned! But considering what Jesus did and the availability of the power of God via the Holy Spirit, what is impossible? From natural birth we all sinned. From our new birth, the impossible has become possible, but people do not want to completely surrender to God or cannot... alone!

"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:26-27

Are the underlined words true?

How many Christians when they are sick go to the doctor first before praying themselves or praying or calling on the elders of the Church for prayer?

Or think about what these words are actually saying:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

What are most believers really putting first before everything else? Who is striving and/or asking God to help them... "Pray without ceasing" or to "rejoice in the Lord always"?
 

DNB

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What I'm saying is the context won't change the meaning of the word, it will show the nuance. It will show how it's applied, but it won't change the meaning.

Or, here is a different study . . . What do these mean?

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Colossians 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Much love!
Again marks, he's talking about the choice of disregarding the attractions of the flesh, which lead to sin. This is profound. We are created in the flesh, what God created was good, and here you are trying to claim that flesh is evil. You're not getting the philosophical meaning of what Paul is saying.
Even 1 Peter 2:24 is clearly figurative, for there was no sin in Christ, and yet, his body took on our sins. Appreciate what is being said here, don't be shallow with your interpretation, it's not meant to be read hyper-literally. The flesh, in the epistles, almost always means hedonism, you're not picking up on the context. The flesh is not evil marks, it is what we do with it is what makes it evil.
 

marks

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This is profound. We are created in the flesh, what God created was good, and here you are trying to claim that flesh is evil.
I'm afraid you misunderstand me.

I'm not saying flesh is evil, but I am saying our flesh has been corrupted.

Justification is to separate us from our corrupted flesh through death, and then to replace the removed flesh life with a new spirit life. Our flesh remains corrupted until it is redeemed in our resurrection, when it will put on incorruption.

Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

I believe that somehow the result of Adam's sin was "written into us", that the Image of God was corrupted, change by that knowledge of good and evil, or changed by disobedience, or changed by the separation from God. I don't know how changed. But corrupted.

In Christ the image of God is being restored to us, I think.

The corrupted body of flesh has it's corrupted mind, now we have a new mind, and we need to be renewed in the spirit of our minds, trained to think according to the Faith, and not according to the mind of the flesh.

In our resurrection, when the corruptible puts on incorruption, and the mortal puts on immortality, this is the transformation of our bodies to swallow up the corruption and death that sin brought.

Much love!
 

DNB

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I'm afraid you misunderstand me.

I'm not saying flesh is evil, but I am saying our flesh has been corrupted.

Justification is to separate us from our corrupted flesh through death, and then to replace the removed flesh life with a new spirit life. Our flesh remains corrupted until it is redeemed in our resurrection, when it will put on incorruption.

Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

I believe that somehow the result of Adam's sin was "written into us", that the Image of God was corrupted, change by that knowledge of good and evil, or changed by disobedience, or changed by the separation from God. I don't know how changed. But corrupted.

In Christ the image of God is being restored to us, I think.

The corrupted body of flesh has it's corrupted mind, now we have a new mind, and we need to be renewed in the spirit of our minds, trained to think according to the Faith, and not according to the mind of the flesh.

In our resurrection, when the corruptible puts on incorruption, and the mortal puts on immortality, this is the transformation of our bodies to swallow up the corruption and death that sin brought.

Much love!
I entirely understand from where in the Bible that you are getting your position from. All i can say, and on a most fundamental level, God created us in His image, and there is absolutely nothing under the sun that can change that. (are you unaware of what being created in the image of God means?). God does not demand righteousness from incorrigibly corrupt beings, it will make Him look foolish. Even the reasons that you offered for this 'He wants to show us that we're corrupt', are not seriously viable. To say the physiological corruption has transferred, or that sin corrupts the mind, ...yes, but not at an ontological or indelible level. Like I said, throughout the Bible good & bad people came and went, there is clearly not a degree of corruption that occurred at the Fall, which you will have to admit if you want to follow through with your thesis. Adam & Eve sinned while being created 'purely' in the image of God. Once you can explain that, which precludes your position, then you have the answer as to why man sins.
 

marks

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I entirely understand from where in the Bible that you are getting your position from. All i can say, and on a most fundamental level, God created us in His image, and there is absolutely nothing under the sun that can change that. (are you unaware of what being created in the image of God means?). God does not demand righteousness from incorrigibly corrupt beings, it will make Him look foolish. Even the reasons that you offered for this 'He wants to show us that we're corrupt', are not seriously viable. To say the physiological corruption has transferred, or that sin corrupts the mind, ...yes, but not at an ontological or indelible level. Like I said, throughout the Bible good & bad people came and went, there is clearly not a degree of corruption that occurred at the Fall, which you will have to admit if you want to follow through with your thesis. Adam & Eve sinned while being created 'purely' in the image of God. Once you can explain that, which precludes your position, then you have the answer as to why man sins.

Adam was created, but Christians are born. Why would that be?

Interestingly, for all the speculation of what "the image of God" which Adam was created in mean, I've never seen the Bible really tell us. What Scriptures would you point to on this?

But there are two parts to this question, not just one. How is it that Adam sinned having been created in God's image? And why is it that we are being restored by being transformed into the image of Christ?

What is the difference between being created in the image of God, and being born of God, then being transformed into the image of Christ?

I believe being born of God embues us with a nature incapable of sin, and being conformed to the image of Christ takes that nature and subjugates the flesh to it.

Much love!
 

DNB

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Adam was created, but Christians are born. Why would that be?

Interestingly, for all the speculation of what "the image of God" which Adam was created in mean, I've never seen the Bible really tell us. What Scriptures would you point to on this?

But there are two parts to this question, not just one. How is it that Adam sinned having been created in God's image? And why is it that we are being restored by being transformed into the image of Christ?

What is the difference between being created in the image of God, and being born of God, then being transformed into the image of Christ?

I believe being born of God embues us with a nature incapable of sin, and being conformed to the image of Christ takes that nature and subjugates the flesh to it.

Much love!
marks, you're speaking esoteric nonsense. You're playing with terms, and trying to define them in a secular manner. There is not a single Christian in the entire world, that has ever lived, that has been transformed into the image of Christ, or who is born of God. These events are in the future. You can talk till the cows come home and I will never, ever, believe that you have been transformed into the image of Christ, ...it goes without saying, I surely haven't, nor anyone else. We are working towards it, ...also implying God's image is still within us.
I don't agree with the ways that you are splitting hairs with terms, and trying to create a whole doctrine for each definition.
Look around you, no one is sanctified, there is no transformation going on.
Just gain wisdom, and do right, and hope that you don't mess-up too bad.
 

marks

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marks, you're speaking esoteric nonsense. You're playing with terms, and trying to define them in a secular manner. There is not a single Christian in the entire world, that has ever lived, that has been transformed into the image of Christ, or who is born of God. These events are in the future. You can talk till the cows come home and I will never, ever, believe that you have been transformed into the image of Christ, ...it goes without saying, I surely haven't, nor anyone else. We are working towards it, ...also implying God's image is still within us.
I don't agree with the ways that you are splitting hairs with terms, and trying to create a whole doctrine for each definition.
Look around you, no one is sanctified, there is no transformation going on.
Just gain wisdom, and do right, and hope that you don't mess-up too bad.
It turns out that we have a very very different faith within us.

I wish you well!

Much love!
 

marks

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Adam was created, but Christians are born. Why would that be?

But there are two parts to this question, not just one. How is it that Adam sinned having been created in God's image? And why is it that we are being restored by being transformed into the image of Christ?

What is the difference between being created in the image of God, and being born of God, then being transformed into the image of Christ?

I believe being born of God embues us with a nature incapable of sin, and being conformed to the image of Christ takes that nature and subjugates the flesh to it.

Much love!
I prefer no unanswered questions . . .

Adam was created, but Christians are born.

Adam was created in the image of God. Christians are born with the nature of God.

Much love!
 

marks

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...comprehension primarily.
Hope is the product of faith. I've come to prefer to say, "expectation", which is more the meaning of the Greek word. Being born again, and seeking to become born again are very different to me. Personally I think the difference runs very deep.

Much love!
 

DNB

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Hope is the product of faith. I've come to prefer to say, "expectation", which is more the meaning of the Greek word. Being born again, and seeking to become born again are very different to me. Personally I think the difference runs very deep.

Much love!
My point was that our faith is the same, we are both awaiting the return of Christ in order to gain the culmination of the absolution of our sins.
But, we disagree on our comprehension of certain text, that as far as I can see, does not by necessity but into question our understanding of salvation. That is, we both agree that man cannot save himself and is in need of a Saviour, we're just not in accord as to the reasons why he's unable to merit salvation on his own.
 

marks

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My point was that our faith is the same, we are both awaiting the return of Christ in order to gain the culmination of the absolution of our sins.
But this is my point. I'm not waiting. I read in the Bible that God has removed my sins. I read that if I confess I'm forgiven and cleansed. I read that believing in Jesus baptizes me into Him, and I am joined to His death, and share in His resurrection, and am reborn, born from above, an entirely new being.

And I believe these to be true.

What I'm waiting for is the redemption of my body, that is, so it will stop being corrupted by sin, and stop warring against my spirit. So that I will be a person in harmony in body and spirit, all in accord with God.

My sins are gone, and I am forgiven, and I share a new life with God. Is this your faith?

Much love!
 
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DNB

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But this is my point. I'm not waiting. I read in the Bible that God has removed my sins. I read that if I confess I'm forgiven and cleansed. I read that believing in Jesus baptizes me into Him, and I am joined to His death, and share in His resurrection, and am reborn, born from above, an entirely new being.

And I believe these to be true.

What I'm waiting for is the redemption of my body, that is, so it will stop being corrupted by sin, and stop warring against my spirit. So that I will be a person in harmony in body and spirit, all in accord with God.

My sins are gone, and I am forgiven, and I share a new life with God. Is this your faith?

Much love!
ok, then there's another controversy between us. For I believe that one can lose their faith, and currently, no one has been washed from their sins, not until Christ comes back and decides for himself.
 
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Ezra

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ok, then there's another controversy between us. For I believe that one can lose their faith, and currently, no one has been washed from their sins, not until Christ comes back and decides for himself.
i think you better study your Bible just a bit closer losing your faith is your belief but your contradicting your self. you say we can lose our faith.. i question that. butttt thus part
no one has been washed from their sins,
is far out of not scripture our sins are forgiven the very moment we get saved . its called being justified we are then sanctified set apart for service. our sins have been took care of by the blood i peter 1:18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot. 20He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake. plus we can also know that we have eternal life 1 John 5: 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
 

DNB

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i think you better study your Bible just a bit closer losing your faith is your belief but your contradicting your self. you say we can lose our faith.. i question that. butttt thus part is far out of not scripture our sins are forgiven the very moment we get saved . its called being justified we are then sanctified set apart for service. our sins have been took care of by the blood i peter 1:18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot. 20He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake. plus we can also know that we have eternal life 1 John 5: 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Your confusing the promise, with the attainment of it. Salvation itself is conditional, universalism is not a tenable position. Thus, since salvation is dependent upon retrieving it by faith, therefore, it follows that one must adhere to it and remain faithful until the end, or they will lose it as easily as they gained it.
I think that you better study your Bible a bit more comprehensively and wisely.