The Sinners Prayer?

[Nancy]

Just a little food for thought.

The LAST thing any of us ever want to hear is "Away from me, you evildoer! I never knew you". Personally I tremble before Him, and trust in His mercy big time and ALL the time!

It seems that the "sinners prayer" is used almost always throughout todays church's. Reading up on some things and thinking on others has kind of got me to thinking...is the so called sinners prayer even biblical?? Think of the emotion connected to some of these alter calls like, how the music will go with the flow...they get very subdued and gradually raise the volume and beat during some calls...this to me reeks of "emotion". Perhaps this is why many who come to Jesus strong in the beginning, but peter out quickly (been there) because that emotion that was first connected to their "choice" has run it's gamut, there is no TRUE power working in them. Yet, they are told over and over again that that is all they have to do to be saved...Jesus knocks, we open. What we should remember is how the gospel was ushered in by JTB...REPENT, BE BAPTISED, THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS NEAR!!

Another thing...Jesus knocking at the door of our...heart? Or the church? Hmmm. If read in context it seems more that He is knocking on the door of the church since it is the church's in Rev. that He is speaking to.

“Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends."
Rev. 3:20

It's not just the schools that kicked Jesus out but, the churchs also. The organized churchs for the most part IMHO, are made by, for, and of men. Men have usurped the power of The Holy Spirit. We have so much to answer for.

Any comments?

 

[amadeus]

Just a little food for thought.

The LAST thing any of us ever want to hear is "Away from me, you evildoer! I never knew you". Personally I tremble before Him, and trust in His mercy big time and ALL the time!

It seems that the "sinners prayer" is used almost always throughout todays church's. Reading up on some things and thinking on others has kind of got me to thinking...is the so called sinners prayer even biblical?? Think of the emotion connected to some of these alter calls like, how the music will go with the flow...they get very subdued and gradually raise the volume and beat during some calls...this to me reeks of "emotion". Perhaps this is why many who come to Jesus strong in the beginning, but peter out quickly (been there) because that emotion that was first connected to their "choice" has run it's gamut, there is no TRUE power working in them. Yet, they are told over and over again that that is all they have to do to be saved...Jesus knocks, we open. What we should remember is how the gospel was ushered in by JTB...REPENT, BE BAPTISED, THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS NEAR!!

Another thing...Jesus knocking at the door of our...heart? Or the church? Hmmm. If read in context it seems more that He is knocking on the door of the church since it is the church's in Rev. that He is speaking to.

“Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends."
Rev. 3:20

It's not just the schools that kicked Jesus out but, the churchs also. The organized churchs for the most part IMHO, are made by, for, and of men. Men have usurped the power of The Holy Spirit. We have so much to answer for.

Any comments?

Mt 6:5	And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mt 6:6	But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Mt 6:7	But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Mt 6:8	Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Mt 6:9	After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mt 6:10	Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mt 6:11	Give us this day our daily bread.
Mt 6:12	And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mt 6:13	And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

 

[BeyondET]

What i find astonishing is in America 1976, 91% identified with Christianity. Last year it was 61%, at the current rate of decline little below 50% by 2070.

Rather anyone plays music or not.

 

[Enoch111]

Another thing...Jesus knocking at the door of our...heart? Or the church? Hmmm. If read in context it seems more that He is knocking on the door of the church since it is the church's in Rev. that He is speaking to.

"If any man hear my voice" should settle the issue. Christ knocks on the door of individual hearts. He wants individuals saved. As to the sinner's prayer, it should be clear to everyone that repentance and faith must be preached or taught at the same time. Repentance is necessary for the remission of sins.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Just a little food for thought.

The LAST thing any of us ever want to hear is "Away from me, you evildoer! I never knew you". Personally I tremble before Him, and trust in His mercy big time and ALL the time!

It seems that the "sinners prayer" is used almost always throughout todays church's. Reading up on some things and thinking on others has kind of got me to thinking...is the so called sinners prayer even biblical?? Think of the emotion connected to some of these alter calls like, how the music will go with the flow...they get very subdued and gradually raise the volume and beat during some calls...this to me reeks of "emotion". Perhaps this is why many who come to Jesus strong in the beginning, but peter out quickly (been there) because that emotion that was first connected to their "choice" has run it's gamut, there is no TRUE power working in them. Yet, they are told over and over again that that is all they have to do to be saved...Jesus knocks, we open. What we should remember is how the gospel was ushered in by JTB...REPENT, BE BAPTISED, THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS NEAR!!

Another thing...Jesus knocking at the door of our...heart? Or the church? Hmmm. If read in context it seems more that He is knocking on the door of the church since it is the church's in Rev. that He is speaking to.

“Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends."
Rev. 3:20

It's not just the schools that kicked Jesus out but, the churchs also. The organized churchs for the most part IMHO, are made by, for, and of men. Men have usurped the power of The Holy Spirit. We have so much to answer for.

Any comments?

Well, the manipulation and mind control techniques you mention are evil and should never be used or encouraged.

That having been said, I am reminded of Joseph's words to his brothers, "what you meant for evil, the Lord meant for good." I say this because I am being reminded that among all those who respond to an alter call, a few of those will eventually mature into genuine children of God, who love Jesus and follow him faithfully.

With regard to the "Sinner's Prayer" I find it to be overly simplistic. But my view is retrospective, coming from someone who has walked with the Lord for many years. It's like watching a young child riding a bike with training wheels. I don't look at the child with contempt. I see myself as I once was and if I am wise, I reflect on the fact that I began with simple beginnings under the care and watchful eye of the savior. The Sinner's prayer, though a bit simplistic, might be the very thing someone needs at a moment when one doesn't know what to say.

Paul the apostle speaks about a similar situation here.

26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:26-27 ​

At times, we feel a great need so intense, that words and vocabulary escape us. All we know is that we need something really, Really, REALLY bad, and urgently but we simply can't voice what we need. Sometimes we don't know WHAT we need. Our need so so great and felt so deeply we imagine that our chest is going to explode if we don't get relief soon.

Paul reminds us that in such times, the Holy Spirit himself will step in and help us. In our weakness, in times when we just don't know what to pray for, the Spirit intercedes for us. He not only knows what we need, he knows how deeply we feel about it. And more importantly, he prays for what we REALLY need because he knows God's will for us.

So, the sinner's prayer, in the mouth of the anguished, repentant sinner can be beneficial.

Great observations Nancy. Keep raising these important questions that we all, myself included, must consider.

 

[mailmandan]

In regards to the sinner's prayer, saying a sinner's prayer will not accomplish anything on its own. I must have prayed the sinner's prayer 20 different times with Pat Robertson while watching the 700 Club when I was a teenager, yet nothing happened. Why? Because there was no repentance and faith. Such a prayer needs to include what a person knows, understands, and believes about their sinfulness and need for salvation, followed by repentance/faith. People need to hear and believe the gospel. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16) Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)

For a person who comes to the realization that he is lost and in need of Jesus Christ to save him, (Romans 3:23; 6:23) he may obtain salvation only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. (Ephesians 2:8,9) One needs to understand that Jesus Christ, God in human form, took his sins and paid the penalty for his sins by His sacrifice on the cross of Calvary, was buried, and rose again the third day, and they need to make a genuine and willful decision to totally trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

Now if subsequent to such a decision, the person would like to pray what some call a "sinner’s prayer," (calling on the name of the Lord to save him) he may do so, as long as he understands that it was his decision to trust in Jesus Christ for salvation that apprehends his salvation and not simply reciting a prayer in of itself. Reciting a prayer, in of itself does not save, as if it's a magical formula to recite a set of words, but prayer may be used to sincerely call upon the name of the Lord. (Romans 10:13)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Just a little food for thought.

The LAST thing any of us ever want to hear is "Away from me, you evildoer! I never knew you". Personally I tremble before Him, and trust in His mercy big time and ALL the time!

It seems that the "sinners prayer" is used almost always throughout todays church's. Reading up on some things and thinking on others has kind of got me to thinking...is the so called sinners prayer even biblical?? Think of the emotion connected to some of these alter calls like, how the music will go with the flow...they get very subdued and gradually raise the volume and beat during some calls...this to me reeks of "emotion". Perhaps this is why many who come to Jesus strong in the beginning, but peter out quickly (been there) because that emotion that was first connected to their "choice" has run it's gamut, there is no TRUE power working in them. Yet, they are told over and over again that that is all they have to do to be saved...Jesus knocks, we open. What we should remember is how the gospel was ushered in by JTB...REPENT, BE BAPTISED, THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS NEAR!!

Another thing...Jesus knocking at the door of our...heart? Or the church? Hmmm. If read in context it seems more that He is knocking on the door of the church since it is the church's in Rev. that He is speaking to.

“Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends."
Rev. 3:20

It's not just the schools that kicked Jesus out but, the churchs also. The organized churchs for the most part IMHO, are made by, for, and of men. Men have usurped the power of The Holy Spirit. We have so much to answer for.

Any comments?

Lk 24:47: "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

From Luke's account of the great commission, the gospel would start to go forth beginning in Jerusalem on Pentecost with Peter preaching the first recorded gospel sermon commanding men to repent and be baptized for remission of sins. From this beginning going forward, no one was ever told to recite a 'sinner's prayer' in order to be saved...no one. The 'sinner's prayer' is a man-made ideology, an outgrowth of Luther's faith onlyism that denies the Biblical teaching one must be obedient to God's will to be saved, not obedient to man made ideologies to be saved.

 

[CadyandZoe]

In regards to the sinner's prayer, saying a sinner's prayer will not accomplish anything on its own. I must have prayed the sinner's prayer 20 different times with Pat Robertson while watching the 700 Club when I was a teenager, yet nothing happened. Why? Because there was no repentance and faith. Such a prayer needs to include what a person knows, understands, and believes about their sinfulness and need for salvation, followed by repentance/faith. People need to hear and believe the gospel. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16) Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)

For a person who comes to the realization that he is lost and in need of Jesus Christ to save him, (Romans 3:23; 6:23) he may obtain salvation only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. (Ephesians 2:8,9) One needs to understand that Jesus Christ, God in human form, took his sins and paid the penalty for his sins by His sacrifice on the cross of Calvary, was buried, and rose again the third day, and they need to make a genuine and willful decision to totally trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

Now if subsequent to such a decision, the person would like to pray what some call a "sinner’s prayer," (calling on the name of the Lord to save him) he may do so, as long as he understands that it was his decision to trust in Jesus Christ for salvation that apprehends his salvation and not simply reciting a prayer in of itself. Reciting a prayer, in of itself does not save, as if it's a magical formula to recite a set of words, but prayer may be used to sincerely call upon the name of the Lord. (Romans 10:13)

Good message Mailmandan. Right on target. But don't be too hard on you teenage self. Most of us teenagers were invincible heroes in our own minds.

 

[Nancy]

"If any man hear my voice" should settle the issue. Christ knocks on the door of individual hearts. He wants individuals saved. As to the sinner's prayer, it should be clear to everyone that repentance and faith must be preached or taught at the same time. Repentance is necessary for the remission of sins.

True, yes He does want individuals saved but He was speaking to whole church's in this context. He also judges corporately, like Nations as well as church's. I've always believed this to be the heart of a single person, just not so sure anymore.

 

[Nancy]

What i find astonishing is in America 1976, 91% identified with Christianity. Last year it was 61%, at the current rate of decline little below 50% by 2070.

Rather anyone plays music or not.

Yes, disturbing. And even more disturbing is that many who claim Christianity act anything BUT Christlike.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, disturbing. And even more disturbing is that many who claim Christianity act anything BUT Christlike.

There are genuine Christians and there are nominal/pseudo Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and its not hard to find them mixed together in various churches and on various Christian forum sites.

 

[Nancy]

Well, the manipulation and mind control techniques you mention are evil and should never be used or encouraged.

That having been said, I am reminded of Joseph's words to his brothers, "what you meant for evil, the Lord meant for good." I say this because I am being reminded that among all those who respond to an alter call, a few of those will eventually mature into genuine children of God, who love Jesus and follow him faithfully.

With regard to the "Sinner's Prayer" I find it to be overly simplistic. But my view is retrospective, coming from someone who has walked with the Lord for many years. It's like watching a young child riding a bike with training wheels. I don't look at the child with contempt. I see myself as I once was and if I am wise, I reflect on the fact that I began with simple beginnings under the care and watchful eye of the savior. The Sinner's prayer, though a bit simplistic, might be the very thing someone needs at a moment when one doesn't know what to say.

Paul the apostle speaks about a similar situation here.

26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:26-27 ​

At times, we feel a great need so intense, that words and vocabulary escape us. All we know is that we need something really, Really, REALLY bad, and urgently but we simply can't voice what we need. Sometimes we don't know WHAT we need. Our need so so great and felt so deeply we imagine that our chest is going to explode if we don't get relief soon.

Paul reminds us that in such times, the Holy Spirit himself will step in and help us. In our weakness, in times when we just don't know what to pray for, the Spirit intercedes for us. He not only knows what we need, he knows how deeply we feel about it. And more importantly, he prays for what we REALLY need because he knows God's will for us.

So, the sinner's prayer, in the mouth of the anguished, repentant sinner can be beneficial.

Great observations Nancy. Keep raising these important questions that we all, myself included, must consider.

Okay, thanks for the reply.
Simplistic is right on, but as you spoke about the child here, it does make all the sense needed to realize we cannot toss even the simplistic out. Would be nice if the church's as a whole, would make clear to babes that, their initial prayer of surrender to Jesus is not the beginning, middle and END of their walk. Seems they should be teaching them 2 Peter 1:5-11.

"what you meant for evil, the Lord meant for good." <--- And, this brings to mind:

“Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.” “Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.” Luke‬ ‭9:49-50‬
And
“But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,” Ph 1:18‬.

Righteousness is as righteousness does!

Yes brother, those times where we have no words at all can be gut and heart wrenching! I do not have the gift of tongues or the "prayer language" yet when this kind of need arises, there is the "feeling" of deep groaning going on inside. Thank you God for your Spirit.

"So, the sinner's prayer, in the mouth of the anguished, repentant sinner can be beneficial." Indeed, and agreed.

What do you think of Jesus knocking on the door...of individual hearts or the Church? Always thought it was the individual persons heart but, after reading a bit yesterday on it, I have to wonder if this is not speaking to the door of the church...?
Thank you C&Z

 

[CadyandZoe]

Okay, thanks for the reply.
Simplistic is right on, but as you spoke about the child here, it does make all the sense needed to realize we cannot toss even the simplistic out. Would be nice if the church's as a whole, would make clear to babes that, their initial prayer of surrender to Jesus is not the beginning, middle and END of their walk. Seems they should be teaching them 2 Peter 1:5-11.

"what you meant for evil, the Lord meant for good." <--- And, this brings to mind:

“Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.” “Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.” Luke‬ ‭9:49-50‬
And
“But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,” Ph 1:18‬.

Righteousness is as righteousness does!

Yes brother, those times where we have no words at all can be gut and heart wrenching! I do not have the gift of tongues or the "prayer language" yet when this kind of need arises, there is the "feeling" of deep groaning going on inside. Thank you God for your Spirit.

"So, the sinner's prayer, in the mouth of the anguished, repentant sinner can be beneficial." Indeed, and agreed.

What do you think of Jesus knocking on the door...of individual hearts or the Church? Always thought it was the individual persons heart but, after reading a bit yesterday on it, I have to wonder if this is not speaking to the door of the church...?
Thank you C&Z

I can't say for sure but your proposal sounds reasonable. We picture Jesus knocking on the door of an unbeliever's heart, but maybe Jesus is talking to the entire church.

For instance, some propose that all the letters to the Churches represent the entire church age down through history, and if that is the case, then the letter to the church at Laodicea is a letter speaking to all of us believers in this age. If this is the right interpretation, then Jesus is standing at the door right now, figuratively speaking. In other words, his second coming is very soon now, right at the door. And the problem Jesus addresses is complacency. Up and until 2020, Christians have taken everything for granted. We got soft and we presumed too much. Now we witness the encroachment of the darkness and Jesus' advise to us is "hear my voice and open the door."

In any case, I think you are right. Jesus was talking to the entire church, not just individuals.

 

[Wynona]

I wouldn't mind the sinners prayer if a church was biblical in its teachings on salvation and what it means to follow Jesus.

But as a standalone marker of someone being saved, its lacking.

 

[Nancy]

I can't say for sure but your proposal sounds reasonable. We picture Jesus knocking on the door of an unbeliever's heart, but maybe Jesus is talking to the entire church.

For instance, some propose that all the letters to the Churches represent the entire church age down through history, and if that is the case, then the letter to the church at Laodicea is a letter speaking to all of us believers in this age. If this is the right interpretation, then Jesus is standing at the door right now, figuratively speaking. In other words, his second coming is very soon now, right at the door. And the problem Jesus addresses is complacency. Up and until 2020, Christians have taken everything for granted. We got soft and we presumed too much. Now we witness the encroachment of the darkness and Jesus' advise to us is "hear my voice and open the door."

In any case, I think you are right. Jesus was talking to the entire church, not just individuals.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I wouldn't mind the sinners prayer if a church was biblical in its teachings on salvation and what it means to follow Jesus.

But as a standalone marker of someone being saved, its lacking.

Faith onlyists deny that salvation requires any kind of work at all and take verses like Rom 4:5 or Eph 2:8-9 out of context and use them as supposed "proof texts" assuming that these verses eliminate any and all works from obtaining the promise of salvation.

Yet in the Is believing/faith a work ? thread, faith onlyists post things like "Once you condition Salvation on anything you do, its works Salvation and its anti grace !" (post #568). Yet saying a sinner's prayer is 1) something done, it's a work and 2) saying a sinner's prayer is putting a condition upon salvation which, according to faith onlyist, putting a condition on salvation like a sinner's prayer creates a "works salvation" and is "anti grace".

Fact is, the Bible makes obedience to God's command a condition to recieve God's free gift of salvation and
1) nowhere is obedience to God called a work of merit.
2) nowhere is obeying God said to make salvaton "works salvation".
3) nowhere is man's obedience to God called "anti grace"
4) nowhere under the gospel is man ever commanded to say a sinner's prayer in order to be saved.

 

[Wynona]

Faith onlyists deny that salvation requires any kind of work at all and take verses like Rom 4:5 or Eph 2:8-9 out of context and use them as supposed "proof texts" assuming that these verses eliminate any and all works from obtaining the promise of salvation.

Yet in the Is believing/faith a work ? thread, faith onlyists post things like "Once you condition Salvation on anything you do, its works Salvation and its anti grace !" (post #568). Yet saying a sinner's prayer is 1) something done, it's a work and 2) saying a sinner's prayer is putting a condition upon salvation which, according to faith onlyist, putting a condition on salvation like a sinner's prayer creates a "works salvation" and is "anti grace".

Fact is, the Bible makes obedience to God's command a condition to recieve God's free gift of salvation and
1) nowhere is obedience to God called a work of merit.
2) nowhere is obeying God said to make salvaton "works salvation".
3) nowhere is man's obedience to God called "anti grace"
4) nowhere under the gospel is man ever commanded to say a sinner's prayer in order to be saved.

True. There is a lack of balance on God's role and our responsibility. I was just reading through that thread last night when I fell asleep. I didn't make it all the way through. Maybe I will today.

 

[Jim B]

Faith onlyists deny that salvation requires any kind of work at all and take verses like Rom 4:5 or Eph 2:8-9 out of context and use them as supposed "proof texts" assuming that these verses eliminate any and all works from obtaining the promise of salvation.

Yet in the Is believing/faith a work ? thread, faith onlyists post things like "Once you condition Salvation on anything you do, its works Salvation and its anti grace !" (post #568). Yet saying a sinner's prayer is 1) something done, it's a work and 2) saying a sinner's prayer is putting a condition upon salvation which, according to faith onlyist, putting a condition on salvation like a sinner's prayer creates a "works salvation" and is "anti grace".

Fact is, the Bible makes obedience to God's command a condition to recieve God's free gift of salvation and
1) nowhere is obedience to God called a work of merit.
2) nowhere is obeying God said to make salvaton "works salvation".
3) nowhere is man's obedience to God called "anti grace"
4) nowhere under the gospel is man ever commanded to say a sinner's prayer in order to be saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." So clearly salvation is a gift of God. It cannot be earned by "works". Naturally, this doesn't mean that after one is saved, they shouldn't be motivated to do good "works" for others out of love.

Romans 4:3-8, "For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation. But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.

So even David himself speaks regarding the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the one against whom the Lord will never count sin.”

So should I believe what the Bible clearly says about salvation -- that it is a free gift of God that can't be earned by "works" -- or believe you, that somehow God can be bribed by one's actions into doing something that He would not normally do?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." So clearly salvation is a gift of God. It cannot be earned by "works". Naturally, this doesn't mean that after one is saved, they shouldn't be motivated to do good "works" for others out of love.

Romans 4:3-8, "For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation. But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.

So even David himself speaks regarding the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the one against whom the Lord will never count sin.”

So should I believe what the Bible clearly says about salvation -- that it is a free gift of God that can't be earned by "works" -- or believe you, that somehow God can be bribed by one's actions into doing something that He would not normally do?

If one were saved by reciting some "sinner's prayer" then that would be a work, something done and it would make salvation conditional upon one's work in saying a sinner's prayer. But salvation is conditional, not upon saying a sinner's prayer, but upon obedience in doing what God says in believing, repenting of sins, confessing woth the mouth and submittion to baptism. And obedience to God is not a work of merit.

The Bible speaks of different kinds of works...good works, wicked works, works of righteousness, works of unrighteousness, works of the OT law, works of merit, works of obedience in doing God's will, etc but no verse eliminates ALL works of ALL kinds.

Romans 4:5-6, Eph 2:8-9. NOTHING in either the immediate or remote contexts of these passages eliminates all works for that idea is assumed into the verses with no proof given to back it up. No verse(s) at all eliminates obedience to God's will. Nowhere in the first 4 chapters of Romans does Paul ever eliminate obedience to God's will but in chapter 6 makes obedience necessary in order to be justified...."obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine then being made freed from sin", verses 17-18....Paul spoke of "obedience unto righteousness" verse 16. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a person to ever be righteous (right doing) apart from obedying God's will for God never made one righteous while one continued to live in rebellion, disobedience to God's will. Rom 4:5 is speaking of Abraham and when it says Abraham "worketh not" that cannot exclude obedience for Abraham did for a fact have obedient works (Heb 11:8,17) and was justified by those works, James 2. Trying to get Rom 4:5 or Eph 2:8-9 to eliminate obdience creates a myraid of contradictions within the Bible that the faith onlyist can never clean up.

---obedience to God is not a work of merit
--no one was saved while continuing to live in disobedience to God's will
--obedience to God's will is the only solution to being dead to sin
--man has been given commands to obey in order to be saved
--no one was ever told to think out your salvation but work out your salvation for doing nothing has never saved anyone.

Faith onlyist continue to cite Roms 4:5 and Eph 2:8-9 out of context and isolated these verses by themselves from all other verses and then ASSUME faith only into these verse by assuming these verses eliminate all works of all kinds including obdience to God but never give proof to back those assumptions up.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Just a little food for thought.

The LAST thing any of us ever want to hear is "Away from me, you evildoer! I never knew you". Personally I tremble before Him, and trust in His mercy big time and ALL the time!

It seems that the "sinners prayer" is used almost always throughout todays church's. Reading up on some things and thinking on others has kind of got me to thinking...is the so called sinners prayer even biblical?? Think of the emotion connected to some of these alter calls like, how the music will go with the flow...they get very subdued and gradually raise the volume and beat during some calls...this to me reeks of "emotion". Perhaps this is why many who come to Jesus strong in the beginning, but peter out quickly (been there) because that emotion that was first connected to their "choice" has run it's gamut, there is no TRUE power working in them. Yet, they are told over and over again that that is all they have to do to be saved...Jesus knocks, we open. What we should remember is how the gospel was ushered in by JTB...REPENT, BE BAPTISED, THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS NEAR!!

Another thing...Jesus knocking at the door of our...heart? Or the church? Hmmm. If read in context it seems more that He is knocking on the door of the church since it is the church's in Rev. that He is speaking to.

“Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends."
Rev. 3:20

It's not just the schools that kicked Jesus out but, the churchs also. The organized churchs for the most part IMHO, are made by, for, and of men. Men have usurped the power of The Holy Spirit. We have so much to answer for.

Any comments?

Well the term sinners prayer is a colloquial term used to describe a prayer that one should ( not must) pray in a church to receive Christ. I knwo there are vast variations to it. but if it is a prayer doen in faith, God knows and accepts.