The Son of Man returns with and for his people

[Zao is life]

Here is the problem I have with Replacement Theology. Let's just substitute the word "Israel" for "Jews and Gentiles in Christ" in the following passage...

Rom 9.1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of [Jews and Gentiles in Christ], my people, those of my own race, 4 the [Jews and Gentiles in Christ/, the people of Israel. [The Jews and Gentiles in Christ/--theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Hopefully, you can see how ridiculous this reads, unless you drop "Jews and Gentiles in Christ" as a substitute for "Israel?"

I do understand Replacement Theology. The Church has always considered itself the heir of Israel, knowing that God didn't just make promises to a single nation, but really, to many nations. This was the Abrahamic Promise. And certainly the New Covenant has supplanted and fulfilled the Old Covenant of Jewish Law.


I'm not name-calling when I use the term "Replacement Theology." That is just what it is called. I do understand that those who hold to that position sometimes are offended with the term, since it seems to imply a cavalier abuse of the term "Israel." One cannot lightly exchange the meaning of a single Jewish nation with another entirely-different meaning!

Nonetheless, the traditional understanding of "Replacement Theology" is the exchange of "Natural Israel" for "Spiritual Israel." I do not hold to any "Replacement Theology," as you suggest I do. This is a technical term, and I do not fill the bill.

You may character my beliefs as a form of "Replacement Theology," but that might confuse others. I do *not* hold to the technical definition of "Replacement Theology." You do.

Replacement Theology, or Supersessionism (from WIkipedia):
Supersessionism, also called replacement theology or fulfillment theology,[1] is a Christian theology which describes the theological conviction that the Christian Church has superseded the Jews and the nation of Israel, assuming their role as God's covenanted people,[2] thus asserting that the New Covenant through Jesus Christ has superseded or replaced the Mosaic covenant exclusive to Jews. Supersessionist theology also holds that the universal Christian Church has succeeded ancient Israel as God's true Israel and that Christians have succeeded the ancient Israelites as the people of God.

Wikipedia getting their information from Dispensationalists, no doubt.

God's covenant people were never "the Jews" (which is only one of twelve tribes of Israel), as though "the Jews" and "the Jews" alone were Israel.

God's first promise to Abraham was that he would be the father of a multitude of goy. Jacob (Israel) talking to Joseph, prophesied on his death bed that the seed of Ephraim would become the fullness of the Gentiles (mlo' goy in the Hebrew, tanslated quite correctly as "a multitude of nations" in English Bibles).

The 10 Northern tribes were collectively called Ephraim, who emerged as the dominant tribe of the Northern kingdom, and which was declared "no longer a people" (of God), and yet whose descendants would become as the sand of the sea.

Paul quotes that very prophecy in the very same chapter of Romans you use for your replacement theology when you replace God's one and only ancient elect nation, saying that because the greater part was broken off, some claim that it has been "replaced" by the church.

We do not claim any such thing. God's elect nation did not disappear. There was a remnant who believed, and Gentiles who believe have been grafted in among them ever since. The rest were broken off - completely, until the individual repents of his unbelief and is grafted in again.

There is indeed a New Covenant. In the Old Covenant the people of the elect nation had a physical temple. In the New covenant the citizens are the temple, a.k.a "the church". Nothing against biblical doctrine in that.

"The Jews" are not "Israel". They are Judah - and those who are in Christ through faith in Christ are part of God's elect nation. The rest are indeed broken off and need to be grafted in again, just as much as any unbelieving Gentile.

Abraham has become the father of a multitude of goy nations because God is 100% able to keep His first promise to Abraham. Those who believe in Christ are the seed of Abraham.

It has never, ever, ever been about physical ancestry but about who has the faith of Abraham.

If it was about physical ancestry then no Jew would be accepted in God's Kingdom among God's elect nation today, because the majority of Judah remains broken off to this day. Praise Jesus for the growing number of Jews turning to Jesus. @Randy Kluth "The Jews" (Judah) are not "Israel", as though they = all 12 tribes plus the seed of Ephraim a.k.a the fullness of the Gentiles, who were formerly broken off and declared "not My people".

@Randy Kluth They are Gentiles because the descendants of the 10 Northern tribes were scattered among the nations and their descendants intermarried with many Gentile peoples to the extent that it's impossible to find the original 10 tribes today. Even if a Gentile were to discover he was a descendant, his blood/genetic ancestral make up would not be pure Israelite. Yet believing Gentiles are grafted into Israel and considered Ephraim who have become the people of the living God. Paul says so in Romans 9.

There has never been a replacement of Israel elected by God in the days of Abraham, the 12 tribes of Israel. You and many others falsely claim we say so. The nation did not disappear after the death and resurrection of Christ. Praise God for the remnant, else we would have no New Testament today. The first church consisted mainly of Jews in Jerusalem. Jews who remained part of God's elect nation did not replace Jews. Rather, most were broken off, and Gentiles were grafted in among the Jews who believed.

Your replacement theology is the only theology replacing God's only elect nation Israel with another. And the elect people of God ARE the temple, a.k.a the Church.

It's Jesus' blood - the blood of the living Christ - that replaced the Mosaic Covenant, not theology.

 

[Zao is life]

There is no replacement theology there is only new covenant theology

They seem to think that when we repeat the Bible's teaching that in the days of the Old Covenant, the citizens of God's elect nation had a physical temple, but since the New Covenant, the citizens of God's elect nation are the temple, a.k.a the church, that we are claiming that the citizens themselves, i,e the elect nation, have been replaced by .. I dunno, a shell with steeple or something?

It's just ridiculous. Don't they know that the Jews in Jerusalem were the first church? So did Jews replace Jews? Or was it simply a case of the fact that most Jews were broken off through their unbelief, as the New Testament actually states, and this remains the situation to this day?

 

[Marty fox]

They seem to think that when we repeat the Bible's teaching that in the days of the Old Covenant, the citizens of God's elect nation had a physical temple, but since the New Covenant, the citizens of God's elect nation are the temple, a.k.a the church, that we are claiming that the citizens themselves, i,e the elect nation, have been replaced by .. I dunno, a shell with steeple or something?

It's just ridiculous. Don't they know that the Jews in Jerusalem were the first church? So did Jews replace Jews? Or was it simply a case of the fact that most Jews were broken off through their unbelief, as the New Testament actually states, and this remains the situation to this day?

Yes amen but the only thing I would add is that the Old testament faithful before Israel were also the first church

 

[Zao is life]

Yes amen but the only thing I would add is that the Old testament faithful before Israel were also the first church

Noah, and before him Seth and his descendants? Yes, "church" simply means "congregation" and wherever those faithful to God's Word gathered together, it was the church.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'm not entirely clear on how I, as a Postrib, feel Jesus comes back with his saints, let me speculate a little. We have these 2 important passages regarding Jesus' 2nd Coming with and for his Church. Dad raised an important question in my mind: does Christ come with or for his Church, or both?

My initial thought here is that when we look at these 2 passages together, it appears that Christ comes with the departed saints and for Christians who are still alive on earth. What do you think?...

Matt 24.30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

1 Thes 4.14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

It really appears to me that there are 2 stages here. 1st, the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven. That is when he "bring with him those who have fallen asleep in him." 2nd, Jesus gathers his elect from the four winds, which sounds very much like a gathering to the clouds. And indeed Paul confirms that it is a gathering to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

So we have a 2 step process, Christ appearing with his departed saints, and then his gathering those still alive to the clouds. However, we are told in Acts 1 that he is coming again in the same way he left. That means the appearance of the Son of Man in the clouds must be followed by his appearance on earth. In Zechariah 14, we read that it will be on the Mt. of Olives, a literal place on earth.

Zech 14.4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

2 Sam 15 tells the story how David, who suffered a conspiracy in Jerusalem, left the city and went up on the Mt. of Olives. Interestingly, David expresses hope that God will allow him to return later, to visit Jerusalem again and see the place where the ark is to be. This place, that Jesus is returning to, will show the completion of his promise to Israel, to return to the very people who have rejected him.

The gathering of the "elect" refers to the gathering of the Hebrews back to the land.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Who is coming "with" Christ, and which "Coming" is this associated with--the "gathering of Israel" or the "taking to Heaven?"...I agree the Rapture and the Resurrection are 2 separate things. But it is not established that they happen at separate events. It may be argued that the Resurrection immediately precedes the Rapture, right?

Thanks for the great questions:

1) In the pre-trib [ heavenly Mystery ] Coming, in the air, the [ not 'resurrected in

heaven' but still ] "sleeping/resting (souls) in Christ" God Brings "with" Him:​

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them ​

which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.​

​

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which ​

sleep in Jesus Will God Bring 'with' Him. For this we say unto you by The​

Word of The LORD, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming​

of The LORD shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep.​

For The LORD Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,​

with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and​

​

the dead [sleeping] in Christ shall rise first:..." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-16)​

This, then would be "those [souls] asleep" are re-united 'with' their bodies, in the
resurrection, 'leaving earth' simultaneously 'with' those alive/changed [immortal and
able to 'dwell (with a body) in heaven'?], in the "twinkling of an eye" (1Co 15:51-42)?

This is the Coming associated with "Gathering His Body To Himself, taking them
to heaven," and then:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

2) the other Event of His Coming associated with "gathering of Israel"?:

a) In the post-trib [ earthly Prophesied ] Coming, Christ Comes 'with' Two armies

[ have never heard of sleeping souls in an army, following their commander to war? ]​

when He "Leaves" heaven:​

​

Rev 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed Him​

upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."​

However, there is a puzzle with this:

​

When He "Arrives" on the earth, why is it that there is only ONE 'army' remaining?

Rev 19:19 "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and​

their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that​

sat on the horse, and against His army."​

The only conclusion I can see, to solve this, is that the 'Heavenly Mystery,'
to Paul, for us,
The Body Of Christ, is that since our 'Uplook' * is exactly that ↑ , then, the only
thing that makes sense to me, is that "Christ Assigns the members of His Body,"
their positions of 'ruling and reigning in the heavenlies' thus, arriving on earth 'with'
ONE 'army of angels'? **

b) Once the 'destruction prophecies' are fulfilled, and "Christ Sits On His Throne," then,

this prophecy takes place?:​

With Another trumpet (After "the 7th [ many say is last? ] angel trumpet” in heaven),
on the earth, Angels Are Sent, By The KING of kings, To: “gather the elect”:

Mat 24:31 "And He shall send His angels [ the One army? ] with a​

great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect​

from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."​

​

Mar 13:27 "And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather​

together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part​

of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."​

Again, thanks for the questions, and in advance for your prayerful and
careful perusal thereof of these study thoughts. Great discussion...

----------------------------

** Way to Far-Fetched, eh? For the critics, I would like to ask this:

Since the Heavenly Jerusalem is a 12,000 furlongs cubicle (Rev 21:16), and IF all of
God's 'elect only live on the lower level' [ 1-3 miles high? ], then what would God's
Purpose Be for the Upper 1497 miles [ if not somebody 'ruling and reigning' there ]?

* Confirming Scriptures borrowed from: God's Great GRACE Departure!:

...(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)...

Are we all, in fact, studying in order to be prepared for this Judgment?

Amen.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Wikipedia getting their information from Dispensationalists, no doubt.

I've been on forums like this one for over 20 years, and I get this response every time from Supersessionists. They don't want to be called "Replacement Theology" advocates. Dispensationalism does, however, have an advantage in terms of exposure in some places. So I don't blame you for being leery.

God's covenant people were never "the Jews" (which is only one of twelve tribes of Israel), as though "the Jews" and "the Jews" alone were Israel.

That's contrary to Scriptures. I just quoted it to you:
Rom 9.3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised!...24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

This is a reference to *the Jews.* That's who Paul defines as "his people." The Jews are his "own race."

God's first promise to Abraham was that he would be the father of a multitude of goy. Jacob (Israel) talking to Joseph, prophesied on his death bed that the seed of Ephraim would become the fullness of the Gentiles (mlo' goy in the Hebrew, tanslated quite correctly as "a multitude of nations" in English Bibles).

I think the reference to the multiplication of Ephraim refers to his expansion to include a great multitude, as opposed to "nations." It is also noted that Ephraim conquered numerous people in Gentile nations. It was never that Ephraim was to *become* Gentile nations! Neither of us are qualified to translate from the original languages as they were meant to be understood. I'm relying on commentators.

The 10 Northern tribes were collectively called Ephraim, who emerged as the dominant tribe of the Northern kingdom, and which was declared "no longer a people" (of God), and yet whose descendants would become as the sand of the sea.

The N. Kingdom of Israel went into the Assyrian captivity and disappeared from history. However, many from the Northern tribes had come down into the tribal area of Judah and Benjamin, to be near the temple in Jerusalem. And so, both N. and S. Kingdoms have hope for their future in the collective termed "the Jewish People," since they consist of the descendants from all 12 tribes. They were the ones most faithful to worshiping God in Jerusalem.

Paul quotes that very prophecy in the very same chapter of Romans you use for your replacement theology when you replace God's one and only ancient elect nation, saying that because the greater part was broken off, some claim that it has been "replaced" by the church.

We do not claim any such thing. God's elect nation did not disappear. There was a remnant who believed, and Gentiles who believe have been grafted in among them ever since. The rest were broken off - completely, until the individual repents of his unbelief and is grafted in again.

First you say that "Israel" is the international Church. And now, you say that "Israel" remained as "Israel!" Yes, when the international Church was born, it began as a remnant of Christians from Israel. At that time, Israel was in a sense the only "Christian" nation, or rather, the only nation called to be a Christian nation. And so, Gentiles, to become Christians, were in a sense grafted into that national inheritance.

However, since that time there have come to be many Christian nations, and Christians no longer have to be grafted onto Israel, the nation. We are all being grafted onto a theocratic tradition and a religious tradition when we come from outside of Christianity and join into this tradition.

There is indeed a New Covenant. In the Old Covenant the people of the elect nation had a physical temple. In the New covenant the citizens are the temple, a.k.a "the church". Nothing against biblical doctrine in that.

We agree on this much.

"The Jews" are not "Israel". They are Judah - and those who are in Christ through faith in Christ are part of God's elect nation. The rest are indeed broken off and need to be grafted in again, just as much as any unbelieving Gentile.

Judah and Israel are virtually interchangeable terms. But neither Judah nor Israel represents the International Church! There may be Christians in the nation of Israel, but it is not a Christian nation yet. But it cannot be called anything other than a Jewish nation.

Abraham has become the father of a multitude of goy nations because God is 100% able to keep His first promise to Abraham. Those who believe in Christ are the seed of Abraham.

It has never, ever, ever been about physical ancestry but about who has the faith of Abraham.

That isn't true. The 1st promise God gave to Abraham was about his physical descendants. That makes the physical ancestry of the Jewish People of prime importance. It gives hope to believing Jews that one day their people will return to being a nation of God.

If it was about physical ancestry then no Jew would be accepted in God's Kingdom among God's elect nation today, because the majority of Judah remains broken off to this day. Praise Jesus for the growing number of Jews turning to Jesus. @Randy Kluth "The Jews" (Judah) are not "Israel", as though they = all 12 tribes plus the seed of Ephraim a.k.a the fullness of the Gentiles, who were formerly broken off and declared "not My people".

@Randy Kluth They are Gentiles because the descendants of the 10 Northern tribes were scattered among the nations and their descendants intermarried with many Gentile peoples to the extent that it's impossible to find the original 10 tribes today. Even if a Gentile were to discover he was a descendant, his blood/genetic ancestral make up would not be pure Israelite. Yet believing Gentiles are grafted into Israel and considered Ephraim who have become the people of the living God. Paul says so in Romans 9.

Jewish ancestry is not contingent on purity of DNA tracing back to ancient Jews. Rather, it has to do with family relationship with the people who are part of the Jewish culture of today. Judaism is a culture, as well as a people with children.

Israel's national hope does not depend on there being a Christian nation today. A major reason Christ is coming back is to remove the influence of corrupt Judaism from Israel so that the nation can become a Christian nation, thus fulfilling their hope.

There has never been a replacement of Israel elected by God in the days of Abraham, the 12 tribes of Israel. You and many others falsely claim we say so.

You believe that Israel is now--in the NT era replaced by the international Church, while also asserting that there is still an Israel consisting of Jews today! I'm not at all claiming you believed in Replacement Theology in OT times.

The nation did not disappear after the death and resurrection of Christ. Praise God for the remnant, else we would have no New Testament today. The first church consisted mainly of Jews in Jerusalem. Jews who remained part of God's elect nation did not replace Jews. Rather, most were broken off, and Gentiles were grafted in among the Jews who believed.

Your replacement theology is the only theology replacing God's only elect nation Israel with another. And the elect people of God ARE the temple, a.k.a the Church.

It's Jesus' blood - the blood of the living Christ - that replaced the Mosaic Covenant, not theology.

You believe in 2 Israels--Natural Israel and Spiritual Israel? That's what I said you believed in from the start!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thanks for the great questions:

1) In the pre-trib [ heavenly Mystery ] Coming, in the air, the [ not 'resurrected in

heaven' but still ] "sleeping/resting (souls) in Christ" God Brings "with" Him:​

So when we are told that Christ comes "with" the departed, this is (for you) a Pretrib Coming? That's strange because I've always been told that Pretrib Doctrine is based on the idea that Christ must 1st come "for" his Church in order to return "with" his Church??

So why would Christ come "with" the departed saints at the same time he comes "for" the still living Church? Why would they not, for example, remain in the clouds until they inherit the earth? And if they do remain in the clouds, how is this a "Coming" at all?

2) the other Event of His Coming associated with "gathering of Israel"?:

a) In the post-trib [ earthly Prophesied ] Coming, Christ Comes 'with' Two armies

[ have never heard of sleeping souls in an army, following their commander to war? ]​

when He "Leaves" heaven:​

​

Rev 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed Him​

upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."​

However, there is a puzzle with this:

​

When He "Arrives" on the earth, why is it that there is only ONE 'army' remaining?

My thought would be that Christ comes with both angels and the departed saints, which might be "armies"--plural and also with those caught up and rendered immortal with them. And so, perhaps the Beast armies are only directing their attack upon Christianity on earth, which is the Lord's Army? They would not likely be trying to battle either angels or departed saints!

Rev 19:19 "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and​

their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that​

sat on the horse, and against His army."​

Thanks, I'm still trying to digest everything I've heard from everybody. Of course, I have my own preconceived notions. But it's interesting to hear all of the views. I appreciate your taking the time!

 

[Randy Kluth]

The gathering of the "elect" refers to the gathering of the Hebrews back to the land.

That makes a lot of sense to me because at the time Jesus said this he was still under the OT Law, which would only address the future of national Israel. Their hope would be in a Christian restoration. Still, it somehow seems connected to Paul's sense of the coming of the Lord for all of God's People. Perhaps with the advent of the NT Period and with the inclusion of Gentile believers, the Hope of Israel became expanded into the Hope of Nations?

 

[Zao is life]

I've been on forums like this one for over 20 years, and I get this response every time from Supersessionists. They don't want to be called "Replacement Theology" advocates.

Neither do you, yet you are the only one in this thread so far who is replacing the ancient Israel that God elected with something "new", as though Israel ceased to exist after the death and resurrection of Christ. So you're saying that the Jews who were the first church and from whom we get the New Testament were not Israel.

And you want the rest of us to deny that there was a complete change in God's covenant relationship with Israel that was bought by Jesus in His blood just because you do.

Dispensationalism does, however, have an advantage in terms of exposure in some places. So I don't blame you for being leery.

Thanks well that's very kind coming from someone who repeatedly falsely accuses people of replacing Israel with theology when your theology is the only theology that pretends that God has two elect nations since the time of Jesus.

This is a reference to *the Jews.* That's who Paul defines as "his people." The Jews are his "own race.".

and Paul was a Benjamite. Kind of like an American of Mexican descent crying about the fact that most of the Americans of Irish descent had been broken off from the Americans' covenant relationship with God through their rejection of God's new covenant, which in turn is through their rejection of Jesus their Messiah. Same nation, different tribes. The Jews are only one of the 12 tribes.

I think the reference to the multiplication of Ephraim refers to his expansion to include a great multitude

You'll have to rewrite that portion of the Hebrew scriptures then, changing the word from goy to something meaning many/a multitude. Oh but .. you've made it clear you've already done that, mentally.

The N. Kingdom of Israel went into the Assyrian captivity and disappeared from history.

and God said a time would come when they would be called the people of the living God - the very scripture Paul quoted in Romans 9 when he spoke of God calling both Jews and Gentiles.

However, many from the Northern tribes had come down into the tribal area of Judah and Benjamin, to be near the temple in Jerusalem. And so, both N. and S. Kingdoms have hope for their future in the collective termed "the Jewish People," since they consist of the descendants from all 12 tribes. They were the ones most faithful to worshiping God in Jerusalem.

So are you saying that this prophecy, quoted by Paul, is not speaking about the majority who were scattered and disappeared in history, but about the remnant who fled to Judah and in time became amalgamated with the Jews?

9 And He said, Call his name Not-my-people. For you are not My people, and I will not be for you.
10 Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.
11 Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel. Hosea 1

How about this one, which was prophesying about the same people at the same time in history:

8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within sixty-five years Ephraim shall be broken so that it shall not be a people. Isaiah 7

Are you saying the above prophecies were talking about the remnant who escaped to Judah and eventually became amalgamated with the Jews?

I'll have to come back to the rest at a later stage. Late this side of the world.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is no replacement theology there is only new covenant theology

Yeah, this is not making me happy that he is ruining this (formerly) interesting thread with this replacement theology nonsense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That makes a lot of sense to me because at the time Jesus said this he was still under the OT Law, which would only address the future of national Israel. Their hope would be in a Christian restoration. Still, it somehow seems connected to Paul's sense of the coming of the Lord for all of God's People. Perhaps with the advent of the NT Period and with the inclusion of Gentile believers, the Hope of Israel became expanded into the Hope of Nations?

Do you think that Jesus wasn't aware that Gentile believers would be among the elect gathered at His second coming? Of course He was.

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In 1 Corinthians 15, the order Paul gave never mentions a resurrection at the Second Coming.

"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

You made a statement and then proceeded to quote a verse that contradicts your statement.

Please ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've been on forums like this one for over 20 years, and I get this response every time from Supersessionists. They don't want to be called "Replacement Theology" advocates. Dispensationalism does, however, have an advantage in terms of exposure in some places. So I don't blame you for being leery.

That's contrary to Scriptures. I just quoted it to you:
Rom 9.3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised!...24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

This is a reference to *the Jews.* That's who Paul defines as "his people." The Jews are his "own race."

I think the reference to the multiplication of Ephraim refers to his expansion to include a great multitude, as opposed to "nations." It is also noted that Ephraim conquered numerous people in Gentile nations. It was never that Ephraim was to *become* Gentile nations! Neither of us are qualified to translate from the original languages as they were meant to be understood. I'm relying on commentators.

The N. Kingdom of Israel went into the Assyrian captivity and disappeared from history. However, many from the Northern tribes had come down into the tribal area of Judah and Benjamin, to be near the temple in Jerusalem. And so, both N. and S. Kingdoms have hope for their future in the collective termed "the Jewish People," since they consist of the descendants from all 12 tribes. They were the ones most faithful to worshiping God in Jerusalem.

First you say that "Israel" is the international Church. And now, you say that "Israel" remained as "Israel!" Yes, when the international Church was born, it began as a remnant of Christians from Israel. At that time, Israel was in a sense the only "Christian" nation, or rather, the only nation called to be a Christian nation. And so, Gentiles, to become Christians, were in a sense grafted into that national inheritance.

However, since that time there have come to be many Christian nations, and Christians no longer have to be grafted onto Israel, the nation. We are all being grafted onto a theocratic tradition and a religious tradition when we come from outside of Christianity and join into this tradition.

We agree on this much.

Judah and Israel are virtually interchangeable terms. But neither Judah nor Israel represents the International Church! There may be Christians in the nation of Israel, but it is not a Christian nation yet. But it cannot be called anything other than a Jewish nation.

That isn't true. The 1st promise God gave to Abraham was about his physical descendants. That makes the physical ancestry of the Jewish People of prime importance. It gives hope to believing Jews that one day their people will return to being a nation of God.

Jewish ancestry is not contingent on purity of DNA tracing back to ancient Jews. Rather, it has to do with family relationship with the people who are part of the Jewish culture of today. Judaism is a culture, as well as a people with children.

Israel's national hope does not depend on there being a Christian nation today. A major reason Christ is coming back is to remove the influence of corrupt Judaism from Israel so that the nation can become a Christian nation, thus fulfilling their hope.

You believe that Israel is now--in the NT era replaced by the international Church, while also asserting that there is still an Israel consisting of Jews today! I'm not at all claiming you believed in Replacement Theology in OT times.

You believe in 2 Israels--Natural Israel and Spiritual Israel? That's what I said you believed in from the start!

Hey, Randy, did Paul teach "Replacement Theology" here?

Ephesians 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Those who you ridiculously accuse of believing in "Replacement Theology" put an emphasis on what Paul stated here, which is that "through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together one of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus". Tell me, does that describe anyone being replaced? I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Do you think that Jesus wasn't aware that Gentile believers would be among the elect gathered at His second coming? Of course He was.

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Yes, I think Jesus was aware that his Gospel would eventually be transferred outside of Israel. But during his earthly ministry he largely focused only on Israel. At that time the Jews considered the pagan Gentiles "dogs."

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hey, Randy, did Paul teach "Replacement Theology" here?

Ephesians 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Those who you ridiculously accuse of believing in "Replacement Theology" put an emphasis on what Paul stated here, which is that "through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together one of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus". Tell me, does that describe anyone being replaced? I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

I'm not accusing anybody of being into Replacement Theology. I'm saying they *do* hold to Replacement Theology. I provided a Wikipedia definition of Supersessionism, and this belief is exactly what some of you are teaching here. Why be ashamed of what you believe? Why reject what those beliefs are typically called?

This isn't an attack on you or anybody here. This is just an abbreviated way of saying what you believe. Yes, I believe in the New Covenant, superseding the Old Covenant. Yes, I believe the Kingdom of God was taken from the Jewish People and given to the Gentiles. But that doesn't mean we can confuse who "Israel" is and who the "international Church" is! Nor does it mean that nations cannot become legitimately-Christian nations, ie nations based on Christian law and morals.

If Israel is rejected in the present age, they can make a comeback in the next age if you're Premillennial. But I hadn't intended to get into that battle here.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not accusing anybody of being into Replacement Theology. I'm saying they *do* hold to Replacement Theology. I provided a Wikipedia definition of Supersessionism, and this belief is exactly what some of you are teaching here. Why be ashamed of what you believe? Why reject what those beliefs are typically called?

Same thing goes for partial preterism

 

[Randy Kluth]

Neither do you, yet you are the only one in this thread so far who is replacing the ancient Israel that God elected with something "new", as though Israel ceased to exist after the death and resurrection of Christ. So you're saying that the Jews who were the first church and from whom we get the New Testament were not Israel.

No, I'm not saying that. The Jews are all part of Israel, whether they are Christians or not. This is not something "new" with respect to definitions. But it is something new with respect to covenants. It was the New Covenant.

However, the promise was not just that there would be a remnant of Christians among the Jews in Israel, but rather, that the entire nation would once again be a nation of God. That plan has temporarily been put on hold.

And you want the rest of us to deny that there was a complete change in God's covenant relationship with Israel that was bought by Jesus in His blood just because you do.

The change from OT to NT was important, but the definition of "Israel" did not change. You changed the definition of "Israel" when you said it became the *International Church.*

Thanks well that's very kind coming from someone who repeatedly falsely accuses people of replacing Israel with theology when your theology is the only theology that pretends that God has two elect nations since the time of Jesus.

I do what? I didn't say God has two election nations in the NT era. God has had many elect nations in the NT era. And Israel is presently disqualified from that group except by promise.

The Jews are only one of the 12 tribes.

No, the Jews are the Hebrew People who had regrouped themselves in the territory of Judah, and consisted of all 12 tribes. We know that because people from all 12 tribes did not like having to worship idols in Dan and Ephraim. They preferred to worship, as the Law required, in Jerusalem. And so, many people from all 12 tribes came to live in the land of Judah, and were all called "the Jewish People."

The tribal territories became, after the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, of no consequence, since the entire purpose of the 12 tribes was to lead up to a single nation. That is how the Abrahamic promise reads--a nation descended from Abraham.

You'll have to rewrite that portion of the Hebrew scriptures then, changing the word from goy to something meaning many/a multitude. Oh but .. you've made it clear you've already done that, mentally.

Not just me, but historic scholars and commentators, and you think you know more than they do? There are oddities about every language, and only experts know them. I certainly don't believe the Hebrew people themselves read it the way you do, and they wrote them!

So are you saying that this prophecy, quoted by Paul, is not speaking about the majority who were scattered and disappeared in history, but about the remnant who fled to Judah and in time became amalgamated with the Jews?

Yes, all 12 tribes had amassed in the territory of Judah, and were scattered during the Babylonian Captivity. They were indeed restored during the reign of Persia. And God has promised that they will *always* be restored, including in the present age of Diaspora and punishment.

How about this one, which was prophesying about the same people at the same time in history:

8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within sixty-five years Ephraim shall be broken so that it shall not be a people. Isaiah 7

Are you saying the above prophecies were talking about the remnant who escaped to Judah and eventually became amalgamated with the Jews?

No, Ephraim was part of the N. Kingdom which went into Assyrian Captivity and was lost forever, although some in exile may have made their way back to join the Jewish People later.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Same thing goes for partial preterism

Partial Preterism is defined as a belief that *MOST ALL* of biblical prophecy has *already been fulfilled.* This does not just have to do with the Olivet Discourse, but with most ALL of the Olivet Discourse, as well as most ALL of the book of Revelation.

I am *NOT* a P.P because I believe that along with the historical fulfillment of the AoD in 70AD much prophecy in the O.D. had yet much more to be fulfilled in history and is still being fulfilled. And I believe that most of Revelation has yet to be fulfilled.

You are absolutely upside down trying to pin the tail on the donkey. You should rather pin on yourself the "stubborn man of the year" award if you're still trying to call me a P.P so many times ILLEGITIMATELY!

 

[Zao is life]

No, I'm not saying that. The Jews are all part of Israel, whether they are Christians or not. This is not something "new" with respect to definitions. But it is something new with respect to covenants. It was the New Covenant.

However, the promise was not just that there would be a remnant of Christians among the Jews in Israel, but rather, that the entire nation would once again be a nation of God. That plan has temporarily been put on hold.

The change from OT to NT was important, but the definition of "Israel" did not change. You changed the definition of "Israel" when you said it became the *International Church.*

I do what? I didn't say God has two election nations in the NT era. God has had many elect nations in the NT era. And Israel is presently disqualified from that group except by promise.

No, the Jews are the Hebrew People who had regrouped themselves in the territory of Judah, and consisted of all 12 tribes. We know that because people from all 12 tribes did not like having to worship idols in Dan and Ephraim. They preferred to worship, as the Law required, in Jerusalem. And so, many people from all 12 tribes came to live in the land of Judah, and were all called "the Jewish People."

The tribal territories became, after the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, of no consequence, since the entire purpose of the 12 tribes was to lead up to a single nation. That is how the Abrahamic promise reads--a nation descended from Abraham.

Not just me, but historic scholars and commentators, and you think you know more than they do? There are oddities about every language, and only experts know them. I certainly don't believe the Hebrew people themselves read it the way you do, and they wrote them!

Yes, all 12 tribes had amassed in the territory of Judah, and were scattered during the Babylonian Captivity. They were indeed restored during the reign of Persia. And God has promised that they will *always* be restored, including in the present age of Diaspora and punishment.

No, Ephraim was part of the N. Kingdom which went into Assyrian Captivity and was lost forever, although some in exile may have made their way back to join the Jewish People later.

We've got side-tracked with something completely different to your OP. This is what I said about your OP:

Jerusalem belongs to God and if Zechariah 14 has not happened yet, then it means that Christ is going to destroy the nations there because God has chosen to destroy the nations there, when they come against Jerusalem.

Revelation 17
14 These (10 kings who are reigning with the beast) will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones.

Revelation 19
16 And He has on His garment, and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
14 And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
8 And to her (the wife of Christ) was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. For the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.

The saints are with Him here too:

Zechariah 14
5 And you shall flee to the valley of My mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. And the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with you.

It's only logical that they cannot come down before they were taken up.

Revelation 11
11 And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. And great fear fell on those seeing them.
12 And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.
13 And in that hour a great earthquake occurred, and the tenth part of the city fell. And seven thousand names of men were slain in the earthquake. And the rest were frightened and gave glory to the God of Heaven.

Zechariah 14
4 And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall divide from its middle, from the east and to the west, a very great valley. And half of the mountain shall move toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And you shall flee to the valley of My mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

And the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with you.

12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have fought against Jerusalem. Their flesh shall rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes shall rot in their sockets. And their tongue shall rot in their mouth.

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, the mule, the camel, and the ass, and of all the beasts which shall be in these tents, like this plague.

It's called a plague. The Revelation talks about the seven last plagues. This is the seventh plague:

Revelation 16
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!
18 And voices and thunders and lightnings occurred. And there was a great earthquake, such as has not been since men were on the earth, so mighty and so great an earthquake.
19 And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger of His wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and mountains were not found.
21 And a great hail, as the size of a talent, came down out of the heaven on men. And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague of it was exceedingly great.

Zechariah 12
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling to all the peoples all around, and it shall also be against Judah in the siege against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all peoples. All who lift it shall be slashed, and all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.

9 And it shall be in that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour on the house of David, and on the people of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be bitter over Him, as the bitterness over the first-born.
11 In that day shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo.

Armageddon (Mount Meggido) comes to mind. The battle is not at the valley of Megiddo. The valley of Megiddo and Mount Megiddo (Har Megiddo or "Armageddon") is a symbol for the final battle, which is decisive, like the battle in the valley of Megiddo which brought about the mourning of Hadad-rimmon.

So the resurrection of the saints takes place before they return with Christ. The house of David and people of Jerusalem - the political authorities of the Jews and the people of Jerusalem will be looking on Him whom they pierced and mourning for Him.