The Son of Man returns with and for his people

[Randy Kluth]

I've already explained this to you several times. In my view no one is replaced.

I realize that. I'm not trying to be daft in explaining to you, once again, that Replacement Theology is the term for those who view "Israel" as the "International Church." It doesn't matter if anybody is being replaced, and I understand that you're not replacing physical Israel with spiritual Israel.

Rather, you're retaining physical Israel while asserting an "Israel" in an advanced international sense. Physical Israel has largely abandoned its spiritual heritage while a remnant of Israel retains it and is joined by an international group of believers, who now share a single heritage.

Detractors would argue that this is "replacing" Israel with a new Israel, while you would not. Still, that is the term that is used for lack of a better term. I'm sorry it misconstrues the fact you do not "replace" Israel. You just redefine them in a non-national sense, and claim that Israel has always been defined not as a nation of faith but only as a remnant of faith.

If I'm saying this wrong, you need to correct it. But what I often get is a long essay in what those of your doctrine believe, leaving no abbreviated term to express what you believe in contrast to other opposing beliefs. Then the fall back term becomes, once again "Replacement Theology."

The description of the cultivated olive tree by Paul in Romans 11 is a description of my view. What Paul described there represents unbelieving Israelites like the first century Pharisees and scribes being cut off from the kingdom of God (as Jesus talked about in Matthew 21:43-45) because of unbelief and believing Gentiles being grafted in because of their faith. And believing Israelites remained in the kingdom of God. Who is being replaced in this scenario? No one.

The unbelieving Israelites are not replaced by the believing Gentiles.

Right, but the change from believing Israel to unbelieving Israel, to be replaced by believers in new nations does indicate a "replacement," as such. And I think we would both agree on this? Those who disagree with "Replacement Theology" do not do so because they reject "replacement," but rather, because it is being defined as a replacement *in perpetuity,* with no chance of restoring the nation of Israel to faith. In fact, it is denied that the nation of faith ever existed or that it was even intended to be a nation of faith. Please correct me if I'm wrong?

Anyone who believes is grafted in, including Israelites and Gentiles. And the ones who were cut off were given the opportunity to be grafted in again (these were the ones who had stumbled but did not fall beyond recovery that Paul hoped to lead to salvation (Romans 11:11-14). So, it's a case of people being cut off because of unbelief and grafted in because of faith. No one is being replaced. So, the word "replacement" in replacement theology misrepresents what I (and many others) actually believe.


First of all, the kingdom of God was not taken from all Jewish people. You understand that, right?

I do understand that God left a remnant of Jews to inherit promises made to Abraham. At the same time, Jesus' statement that Israel would be replaced with a more worthy nation meant that the collective nation would be replaced. This was a replacement of a national structure--not a replacement of the Jewish People. The promise was to bless their nation--otherwise they would be destroyed. Jesus indicated the nation would be destroyed.

The reserve of Christians within the Jewish People had nothing to do with revocation of God's blessing upon the nation as a whole. Consequently, the Kingdom being taken from Israel meant that God's blessings were not lifted from Jewish individuals who converted to Christianity, but from the nation as a whole since the majority had turned away from Christ.

It was only taken from unbelievers like the Pharisees and scribes (read Matthew 21:43-45). And this was God's plan from the beginning, right? Surely, He planned to save Gentiles and not just the Jews from the beginning. So, from that perspective no one is replaced. Yes, the new covenant replaced the old covenant, but that was God's plan all along. It's not as if Plan A went awry and then was replaced by Plan B.


What do you mean? You're talking as if there was just one Israel, but that is not the case. Just read Romans 9:6-8 where Paul very clearly differentiates between two Israels. There is no confusion with the difference between the two. Spiritual Israel has nothing to do with one's nationality, as Paul made clear in that passage. Spiritual Israel consists of the children of God and of the promise rather than having anything to do with which nation someone descended from. We can read Galatians 3:26-29 to see who the children of God and children of the promise are. It's all those who belong to Christ.

Paul was not saying that there are two Israels, but that within a single Israel there were Jews who would qualify to fulfill the promise of faith given to Abraham and there would be those who are disqualified from representing that promise. God would have a complete Israel in the end, but they would only consist of those who followed faith in Christ. Currently, the majority in Israel do not follow Christ, and as such, they do not have upon them God's blessing, nor do they experience the blessing of God's temporal forms of the Kingdom on earth.

The concept of Christian nations is something that you made up and is not taught anywhere in scripture.

I did not make up the Abrahamic promise, which promised the nation of Israel fulfillment, as well as a company of nations of faith. If you think I made that up, I wonder what you base your denial on?

Israel has never been rejected in the present age. This is where you are wrong. Have you not read this:

Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Paul was talking about Israel not being rejected in the sense that ultimately Israel would be restored. Israel certainly had been rejected as a nation representing the temporal Kingdom of God on earth. The nation, as a whole, had come under the curse of God, and now no longer represented a nation of God.

God continues to accept the remnant of Israel as a down payment on the final product, when Christ comes and reestablishes the entire nation on Christian law.

Paul never referred to the nation itself as being grafted back in. In Romans 11...

The "grafting" had to do with the possibility of individual Jews returning to God by accepting Christ in the present age. The complete restoration of the nation is not a "graft" but the Abrahamic Promise being fulfilled. It is referred to in Romans 11.26 as well as in Acts 1.6-7.

he referred to branches being cut off because of unbelief and being grafted in because of faith. And he indicated that the branches that were cut off could be grafted back in if they did "not persist in unbelief" (Romans 11:23). People like you have the false impression that he was talking about the nation being grafted back in one day, but it isn't nations that are grafted in because of faith, it's individuals. The very individuals who were cut off because of unbelief back then had the opportunity to be grafted back in if they did "not persist in unbelief". The ones who were cut off are the ones Paul talked about here:

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

People like you think that Paul indicated that the Israelites who were cut off back then had fallen beyond recovery and salvation was put on hold for Israel until some future time.

Sorry, but in my view that's exactly what Paul taught. Rom 11 clearly and explicitly teaches that, as I interpret it.

Rom 11.26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

In my view, Paul is referring not to the restoration of Jewish individuals, but rather, to a restoration of the national politic, the restoration of a nation living in covenant with God, a "nation under God."

 

[CadyandZoe]

How can I answer that question when you don't explain what you're talking about? What are these two future gatherings of Hebrews that you're referring to here?

People that I know and love dearly tell me that I tend to over-explain things. Secondly, I avoid the assumption that those in the conversation are unfamiliar with the subject at hand because it tends to sound insulting. For these two reasons, will you forgive me for not explaining things earlier?

I want to produce my answer in two posts. In this one, I will briefly review the three gatherings of Israel, yet to be performed.

There are actually three more gatherings of the Hebrew people yet to be fulfilled.

Gathering back to the land:
Many prophets speak about the general gathering of Israel back to the land of promise. The one that stands out in my mind is Deuteronomy 30:1-5. This general gathering of the people is taking place today as we speak.

Gathering to Jerusalem:
Some of the prophets speak about the gathering at Jerusalem of all those in Israel who fear the Lord, during a time of existential threat. Those who hear the call and obey will survive. Those who don't obey will perish. Joel chapters 1 and 2.

Gathering to Azel:
The prophet Zechariah speaks about a gathering of the people at Azel. Here they will meet with the Messiah Jesus face-to-face. Zechariah 14:1-5, Revelation 14:1-5.

One more thing I find of interest.

The Bible sometimes uses figurative language when speaking about the scattering of people as for example Jeremiah 49, Speaking of Elam he says,

Jeremiah 49:36

‘I will bring upon Elam the four winds​

From the four ends of heaven,​

And will scatter them to all these winds;​

And there will be no nation.​

If the four winds blowing, prophetically indicate a scattering of a people, then it stands to reason that ceasing the winds indicates an abatement of the scattering forces in preparation for a gathering.

I believe the following verses then, predict a time when God will stop scattering his people.

Revelation 7:1

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.​

The scattering of God's people has ceased.

This post is long enough. I will attempt to finalize the picture in my next post.

Thanks for listening.

@covenantee

 

[CadyandZoe]

How can I answer that question when you don't explain what you're talking about? What are these two future gatherings of Hebrews that you're referring to here?

Here I want to explicate the Matthew 24 passage.

Matthew 24:29-31
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

immediately after the tribulation of those days
Here we have an unambiguous statement that the coming of the Lord is post-tribulation.

the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky
Here the Lord makes reference to Daniel 7:13-14 when the Lord will appear in the sky. During his trial, Jesus told the chief priests that they would see him (Jesus) "coming on the clouds of heaven." Matthew 26:64 Jesus is talking about literal clouds up in the sky where he will be located and this condition will be a sign to those on the ground that Jesus is about to come back.

all the tribes of the earth will mourn
Here the Greek word "ges" should be translated "land" instead of "earth". Jesus isn't talking about the world population; he is talking about the people of the land: all the tribes of Israel. Every tribe of Israel will be represented in Jerusalem when the Lord returns and they will all see him.

with a great trumpet
The Trumpets in the book of Revelation are warnings to Israel that the Lord is about to come. The purpose of the trumpets is to gather Israel to Jerusalem to meet the Lord there. The Seventh Trumpet is blown after the people and the temple are measured, and at that time the people will hear the cry, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”

At that time, the elect will have been gathered together in Jerusalem.

Who are the elect?
In short, as most Christians will agree, "the elect" refers to those whom God has chosen. Evidence that he has indeed, chosen someone is their loyalty to him. Among those who call themselves "Christian", the elect are those whom God has sanctified with his Spirit and they walk in a manner worthy of the Gospel. They follow Christ wherever he goes.

Among the Hebrews, "the elect" refers to those whom God has kept for himself from among all the people of Israel. those who have not bowed down to the Baal's; those who fear God and walk in his ways.

During the time of Jesus, "the elect" among the Hebrews were also those who followed Jesus and openly confessed Jesus as both Lord and Savior. During our time, after 2000 years, "the elect" among the Hebrews no longer recognize Jesus to be the Christ, the Messiah. It isn't a matter of unbelief (which is the result of a stubborn heart); it's a matter of disbelief (which is the result of an unconvinced mind.) I once heard a Jewish Rabbi say, "When the Messiah comes, the first question we will ask him is 'Sir, were you here before?'"

Once the Jewish elect gathers in Jerusalem, they will meet Jesus there. Here they will discover that Jesus is, indeed, the Messiah. And Jesus will bring with him, his elect followers. At the final trumpet, Jesus will gather with his followers in the air over the "dead body" of Israel below. All of the tribes will look up to witness the sign of the son of man up in the clouds of heaven and they will mourn for him like mourning for a lost son. Jesus will bring his "holy ones", his followers down to the earth and gather with those whom God kept for himself from among the Hebrew people.

@covenantee

 

[CadyandZoe]

After more than three millennia since Abraham of natural genetic diffusion and dispersion, Abraham's DNA is ubiquitous in every individual on earth.

So if you're defining Hebrews as Abraham's genetic progeny, then the entire human race is Hebrew.

What two gatherings of the entire human race would you be referring to?

My use of the term "Hebrew" follows Paul's use of the term, I think. 2 Corinthians 11:22, Philippians 3:5 Most people understand the meaning of words like "Jew" or "Israelite" but in this crowd?

The two remaining gatherings are 1) God's call for his people to return to the land of promise, and 2) God's call for his people to gather in Jerusalem.

I have linked you to my response to Spiritual Israelite where I go into further detail.

 

[Randy Kluth]

People that I know and love dearly tell me that I tend to over-explain things. Secondly, I avoid the assumption that those in the conversation are unfamiliar with the subject at hand because it tends to sound insulting. For these two reasons, will you forgive me for not explaining things earlier?

I want to produce my answer in two posts. In this one, I will briefly review the three gatherings of Israel, yet to be performed.

There are actually three more gatherings of the Hebrew people yet to be fulfilled.

Gathering back to the land:
Many prophets speak about the general gathering of Israel back to the land of promise. The one that stands out in my mind is Deuteronomy 30:1-5. This general gathering of the people is taking place today as we speak.

Gathering to Jerusalem:
Some of the prophets speak about the gathering at Jerusalem of all those in Israel who fear the Lord, during a time of existential threat. Those who hear the call and obey will survive. Those who don't obey will perish. Joel chapters 1 and 2.

Gathering to Azel:
The prophet Zechariah speaks about a gathering of the people at Azel. Here they will meet with the Messiah Jesus face-to-face. Zechariah 14:1-5, Revelation 14:1-5.

One more thing I find of interest.

The Bible sometimes uses figurative language when speaking about the scattering of people as for example Jeremiah 49, Speaking of Elam he says,

Jeremiah 49:36

‘I will bring upon Elam the four winds​

From the four ends of heaven,​

And will scatter them to all these winds;​

And there will be no nation.​

If the four winds blowing, prophetically indicate a scattering of a people, then it stands to reason that ceasing the winds indicates an abatement of the scattering forces in preparation for a gathering.

I believe the following verses then, predict a time when God will stop scattering his people.

Revelation 7:1

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.​

The scattering of God's people has ceased.

This post is long enough. I will attempt to finalize the picture in my next post.

Thanks for listening.

@covenantee

I find all that very interesting, in particular the part about the 4 winds! Thanks--it makes a lot of sense, but I'll have to think about it some more.

 

[Randy Kluth]

One more thing I find of interest.

The Bible sometimes uses figurative language when speaking about the scattering of people as for example Jeremiah 49, Speaking of Elam he says,

Jeremiah 49:36

‘I will bring upon Elam the four winds​

From the four ends of heaven,​

And will scatter them to all these winds;​

And there will be no nation.​

If the four winds blowing, prophetically indicate a scattering of a people, then it stands to reason that ceasing the winds indicates an abatement of the scattering forces in preparation for a gathering.

I believe the following verses then, predict a time when God will stop scattering his people.

Revelation 7:1

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.​

The scattering of God's people has ceased.

This post is long enough. I will attempt to finalize the picture in my next post.

Thanks for listening.

@covenantee

I thought about this, and am wondering if you see a connection between Numbers 31 and Rev 7 and 14?

Num 31.3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel.” 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

I do not personally see the 12,000 from each tribe of Israel in Rev 7 and 14 as a literal representation, since the tribes of Israel have long since past away. They are now represented in the nation of Israel, whose ethnicity contains all 12 tribes and whose nationhood represents all 12 original tribes.

So this number seems to represent, AFAIK, a representation of Israel surviving a Midianite-type of temptation, threatening its existence in NT history. That temptation, of course, was the temptation to remain in Judaism, loving its own ethnicity more than it loved Christ. And it has to completely eliminate its tie to the Law in order to avoid extermination at the coming of Christ.

Thoughts?

 

[covenantee]

During our time, after 2000 years, "the elect" among the Hebrews no longer recognize Jesus to be the Christ, the Messiah.

It is impossible for anyone who does not recognize Jesus to be the Christ, the Messiah to be "elect", for that recognition is the very essence of the definition of elect.

Otherwise, I concur with your recognition of the elect as those of faith and obedience in and to Christ, irrespective of their ethnicity.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It is impossible for anyone who does not recognize Jesus to be the Christ, the Messiah to be "elect", for that recognition is the very essence of the definition of elect.

Otherwise, I concur with your recognition of the elect as those of faith and obedience in and to Christ, irrespective of their ethnicity.

Deut 7.6 For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

I view the "chosen" status of the nation Israel in the OT under the Law to be the equivalent of "elect" status. The OT and NT are 2 distinct covenants, but the recipients of each covenant are determined to be "chosen" or "elect," in my view.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I thought about this, and am wondering if you see a connection between Numbers 31 and Rev 7 and 14?

Num 31.3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel.” 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

I do not personally see the 12,000 from each tribe of Israel in Rev 7 and 14 as a literal representation, since the tribes of Israel have long since past away. They are now represented in the nation of Israel, whose ethnicity contains all 12 tribes and whose nationhood represents all 12 original tribes.

So this number seems to represent, AFAIK, a representation of Israel surviving a Midianite-type of temptation, threatening its existence in NT history. That temptation, of course, was the temptation to remain in Judaism, loving its own ethnicity more than it loved Christ. And it has to completely eliminate its tie to the Law in order to avoid extermination at the coming of Christ.

Thoughts?

What is the connection?

 

[CadyandZoe]

It is impossible for anyone who does not recognize Jesus to be the Christ, the Messiah to be "elect", for that recognition is the very essence of the definition of elect.

Otherwise, I concur with your recognition of the elect as those of faith and obedience in and to Christ, irrespective of their ethnicity.

The point is, the OT prophets speak of two more gatherings of those who are ethnically Jewish.

 

[covenantee]

The point is, the OT prophets speak of two more gatherings of those who are ethnically Jewish.

Salvation by DNA?

God is not a racist.

The nation of Israel was comprised of both descendants and non-descendants of Abraham from its birth and throughout its history.

God slew both without distinction when they rebelled and disobeyed.

 

[covenantee]

Deut 7.6 For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

I view the "chosen" status of the nation Israel in the OT under the Law to be the equivalent of "elect" status. The OT and NT are 2 distinct covenants, but the recipients of each covenant are determined to be "chosen" or "elect," in my view.

Were Korah and his followers "chosen"?

 

[Randy Kluth]

What is the connection?

Num 31.4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel.

Rev 7.4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

In one case, 1000 men from each of the 12 tribes.
In the other case, 12,000 men from each of the 12 tribes.

That is the connection. And as you say, the indication is that the 4 winds are held back to preserve Israel's existence. The same situation existed in Num 31, where the Midianites had tempted the men of Israel to sleep with pagan women, thus leading the nation to destruction for breaking their covenant with God. The Law forbade the men of Israel from marrying pagan women or from having relations with them.

And as you can see, in Rev 14, the 144,000 are viewed as those who did not have impure relations with women. Do you see the connection, agree or disagree?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Were Korah and his followers "chosen"?

All of Israel were elected to be in covenant with God and to live in accord with His Law--all, without exception.

It is often thought that because those who were unfaithful were "cut off" from Israel, were marginalized or disqualified from God's promises, that God had not really made covenant with the entirety of Israel. But that's not true. God made covenant with them all, notwithstanding they could also be "cut off" or "disqualified." They were all the elect of God, and chosen to represent Him, whether they succeeded or not.

It is the same with Christian nations. God will hold them accountable for subscribing to a political system with a religious covenant. They may belong to an elect nation but they can choose, by personal choice or by their behavior, not to live in accord with this agreement. One cannot be "cut off" from a covenant unless that person first *belonged* to that covenant!

 

[covenantee]

All of Israel were elected to be in covenant with God and to live in accord with His Law--all, without exception.

It is often thought that because those who were unfaithful were "cut off" from Israel, were marginalized or disqualified from God's promises, that God had not really made covenant with the entirety of Israel. But that's not true. God made covenant with them all, notwithstanding they could also be "cut off" or "disqualified." They were all the elect of God, and chosen to represent Him, whether they succeeded or not.

It is the same with Christian nations. God will hold them accountable for subscribing to a political system with a religious covenant. They may belong to an elect nation but they can choose, by personal choice or by their behavior, not to live in accord with this agreement. One cannot be "cut off" from a covenant unless that person first *belonged* to that covenant!

God made His covenant with those within Israel who were faithful and obedient to Him, such as the 7,000 Baal rejectors.

No others.

 

[Randy Kluth]

God made His covenant with those within Israel who were faithful and obedient to Him, such as the 7,000 Baal rejectors.

No others.

I believe God does make *special covenants* with those who are faithful. But He also made the Covenant of Law with all Israel, unconditionally. If they belonged to Israel, they were the "elect of God" under terms of the covenant of Law.

So why would God make an *unconditional covenant* with all Israel, if some were bound to become unfaithful? It is because God made this covenant promise with faithful Abraham, whose children needed to have allowance for temporary failures.

Those who chose to depart from God's Law or to disobey the Law removed themselves from the blessings of the Law. But under terms of the Covenant they could also be restored, and be restored to full benefits of the elect of God.

Those who chose not to obtain grace by this means would be cut off forever, which is what an "everlasting fire" symbolizes. They would then no longer be considered "God's elect."

 

[covenantee]

I believe God does make *special covenants* with those who are faithful. But He also made the Covenant of Law with all Israel, unconditionally. If they belonged to Israel, they were the "elect of God" under terms of the covenant of Law.

So why would God make an *unconditional covenant* with all Israel, if some were bound to become unfaithful? It is because God made this covenant promise with faithful Abraham, whose children needed to have allowance for temporary failures. Those who chose to depart from God's Law or to disobey the Law removed themselves from these gracious terms.

No. Your claim violates the very essence of the definition of a covenant.

So applying your definition to Korah's situation, he was in covenant with God, but God slew him anyway.

Why?

That's some strange God and covenant.

That's not the God that I serve, and not the God with Whom I'm in covenant.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No. Your claim violates the very essence of the definition of a covenant.

So applying your definition to Korah's situation, he was in covenant with God, but God slew him anyway.

Why?

That's some strange God and covenant.

That's not the God that I serve, and not the God with Whom I'm in covenant.

I added a bit more to the referenced post. A Covenant of Law can also be a Covenant with an allowance for grace. This is with the understanding that Abraham, who was faithful, would have children who go through a process of deciding whether they want to live by terms of the Covenant or not. Some would, of course, fail initially, and this Covenant with terms of grace allowed them a 2nd chance.

On the other hand, those who removed themselves permanently from terms of the Law would be removed from the Covenant entirely. They will have not only violated the Covenant, but they would have removed themselves as members of the Covenant, and would be cut off forever.

This does not mean that all Israel did not receive the Covenant and initially be made members of the Covenant. They *all* received the Covenant, and we are told "all Israel" said they would live by terms of the Covenant.

For you to say then that this is "some strange God and covenant" is mind-numbing. That is precisely what God did and said He did. Why don't you accept it--because your logic doesn't agree with it?

Nothing I said about the Covenant of Law violates the definition of a covenant. Do you have any comprehension of law? One can make an agreement even though it may be broken later. Every marriage, in fact, fits the definition of a covenant. The fact there are also divorce laws does not in any way mean that a "covenant" had not taken place!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Salvation by DNA?

God is not a racist.

The nation of Israel was comprised of both descendants and non-descendants of Abraham from its birth and throughout its history.

God slew both without distinction when they rebelled and disobeyed.

I need you to hear me on this because the Bible is nuanced on this subject. The word "racist" connotates at least two major concepts: prejudice and discrimination.

I agree that God is not racist according to the first definition, but he is racist according to the second definition. Does God judge a man based on his race? No. Does he offer grace or salvation based on his race? No. Does he condemn a man based on his race? No. In a dispute, does he favor a Jew over a Gentile based on race? No.

But does he discriminate between a Jew and a Gentile? Yes.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Out of all the other families that existed on earth at the time, God took the family of Jacob to be a people for his own possession.

Gathering back to the Land:
This is not a spiritual distinction as you can see from Deuteronomy 30. According to God's lead, Moses split the people up into two groups. One group went to Mount Gerizim to bless the people, while another group when to Mount Ebal to curse the people. In short, God was going to both bless the people and curse the people. Then, after the people have experienced BOTH the blessing and the cursing, the following will take place.

Deuteronomy 30:1-6

So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the Lord your God has banished you, and you return to the Lord your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, then the Lord your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back. The Lord your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.​

​

“Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.​

This gathering is taking place right now. This doesn't concern salvation; it concerns God's holy name.

The next gathering after that will be a matter of salvation for some.

Gathering to Jerusalem:
The call will go out for the people to assemble in Jerusalem to pray for deliverance from enemies. Israel will face an existential threat unlike anything that she has experienced before. Today Israel has skilled soldiers and advanced technology and she can go toe-to-toe with any army in the world. But this existential threat will come from famine and fire. Israel will face extinction by starvation. And when Israel reaches the precipice, she will call out to the Lord for deliverance. Those who hear the call will come to Jerusalem and those who make the trip will survive there. Those who don't make the trip will perish.

Jesus will meet these folks in Jerusalem.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I need you to hear me on this because the Bible is nuanced on this subject. The word "racist" connotates at least two major concepts: prejudice and discrimination.

I agree that God is not racist according to the first definition, but he is racist according to the second definition. Does God judge a man based on his race? No. Does he offer grace or salvation based on his race? No. Does he condemn a man based on his race? No. In a dispute, does he favor a Jew over a Gentile based on race? No.

But does he discriminate between a Jew and a Gentile? Yes.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Out of all the other families that existed on earth at the time, God took the family of Jacob to be a people for his own possession.

Right. I might add that any sensible person would render a just verdict by "discriminating" between the good and the bad. If there is such a thing as a just war at all, then one would identify one nation as the "good" and the other nation as the "bad." If there is an aggressor nation, it must be distinguished. As such, it is "discriminately identified."

If a particular race is acting as a whole in the "good" camp, then it is not "racist" to discriminately identify the race that is acting "good" and in good faith. When Israel was chosen, they chose initially to live in accord with God's Law. It was God's Law and adherence to it that made their "race" good, and different from pagan races. It was *not* "racism!"

The charge of "racism" is a distraction from the point that the Just Judge of Heaven may decide to select a large group of people to become recipients of His promises. But God has already determined that not just Israel can become the recipient of His promises, but there can be many other nations that are recipients of the same or similar promises. This is equity--not racism!