The Soul.

[Ronald Nolette]

You're saying that you have a soul, the scriptures say humans are souls. So your body won't rejoin your soul. In the resurrection a human being will be recreated a human body which is a soul.

Only according to the Watchtower and those indoctrinated by them. Yes the Hebrew did not have a concept of a soul being the immaterial part of man until the time of David/Solomon. That is known as progressive revelation by God.

Jesus spoke of the soul in His true account of Lazarus and the rich man. I know the Watchtower says it is a story and come up with a convoluted explanantion which they cannot biblically prove. But to those who listen to the Spirit and understand grammar, they know this is a true account and not a parable.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Only according to the Watchtower and those indoctrinated by them. Yes the Hebrew did not have a concept of a soul being the immaterial part of man until the time of David/Solomon. That is known as progressive revelation by God.

Jesus spoke of the soul in His true account of Lazarus and the rich man. I know the Watchtower says it is a story and come up with a convoluted explanantion which they cannot biblically prove. But to those who listen to the Spirit and understand grammar, they know this is a true account and not a parable.

No, the scriptures, teach us that we are souls, not that we have souls. Just because you don't believe the scriptures doesn't mean they're going to change, for you.

When it comes to the Lazarus and the rich man parable, and yes we do say or teach it's a parable because whenever Jesus talk to the Jews, especially the Pharisees, Jesus talked to them in parables. So when it comes to the Lazarus and rich man story, we don't believe that all the righteous can literally fit into the literal bosom of Abraham, we don't believe that there's is literal water in Hades must less believe that a literal drop of water can comfort someone who is literally burning.

That this is a parable is acknowledged by scholars. For example, a subheading in the 1912 edition of Luther’s Bible states that this is a parable. And the Catholic Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, states that this is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.”

Jesus wasn't teaching lessons about life after death. So he wasn't teaching that some people suffer in a hellfire when they die and that Abraham and Lazarus were in heaven. Several facts show that this could not be the case.

• If the rich man were in a literal place of burning torment, would not the fire evaporate the water on Lazarus’ fingertip?
  
  
• Even if it were not evaporated, would a single drop of water bring the rich man lasting relief from his suffering in a literal fire?
  
  
• How could Abraham be alive in heaven, since Jesus clearly stated that up to the time Jesus related the parable, no one had gone to heaven?(John 3:13)
  The rich man symbolized the Jewish religious leaders, “who were money lovers.” (Luke 16:14) They listened as Jesus spoke, but they opposed his message. These religious leaders looked down on the common people.(John 7:49)
  
  Lazarus symbolized the common people who accepted Jesus’ message and who were despised by the Jewish religious leaders.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, the scriptures, teach us that we are souls, not that we have souls. Just because you don't believe the scriptures doesn't mean they're going to change, for you.

When it comes to the Lazarus and the rich man parable, and yes we do say or teach it's a parable because whenever Jesus talk to the Jews, especially the Pharisees, Jesus talked to them in parables. So when it comes to the Lazarus and rich man story, we don't believe that all the righteous can literally fit into the literal bosom of Abraham, we don't believe that there's is literal water in Hades must less believe that a literal drop of water can comfort someone who is literally burning.

That this is a parable is acknowledged by scholars. For example, a subheading in the 1912 edition of Luther’s Bible states that this is a parable. And the Catholic Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, states that this is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.”

Jesus wasn't teaching lessons about life after death. So he wasn't teaching that some people suffer in a hellfire when they die and that Abraham and Lazarus were in heaven. Several facts show that this could not be the case.

• If the rich man were in a literal place of burning torment, would not the fire evaporate the water on Lazarus’ fingertip?
  
  
• Even if it were not evaporated, would a single drop of water bring the rich man lasting relief from his suffering in a literal fire?
  
  
• How could Abraham be alive in heaven, since Jesus clearly stated that up to the time Jesus related the parable, no one had gone to heaven?(John 3:13)
  The rich man symbolized the Jewish religious leaders, “who were money lovers.” (Luke 16:14) They listened as Jesus spoke, but they opposed his message. These religious leaders looked down on the common people.(John 7:49)
  
  Lazarus symbolized the common people who accepted Jesus’ message and who were despised by the Jewish religious leaders.

Wow! for an organization that shuns non-witness scholars, yo uquotin gthem is kind of hypocritical. I don't care how many scholars say it is a parable.

This would be the only parable where Jesus mentioned people by name.
This would be the only parable where comparative language is not used . Words such as: "such as", "like", "likened unto", "is as", 'compared to"
etc.
this would be the only parable Jesus started by saying "there was a man"! In other words you make jesus to be a liar for there wasn't a man.
Paradise was not in heaven but in hell or the grave/land of the dead. The. Jews knew this, Jesus knoew this. There were three compartments of hell /grave/sheol/hades: Abrahams bosom, place of torments, tartarus.

Once again, either there was a man or there wasn't.

But as for evaporation? what does the water stand for?
What is the impassable gulf? Are you saying that Jewish religious leader4s could not pass over to the good side? So Nicodemus, and Joseph were lost because they were religious leaders?
Does that mean the scores of rabbis, Jewish religious leaders also who accepted Jesus were lost also because of that impassable gulf?
What does Abrham signify?
How about real rich people? were they lost as well?
what does fared sumptuously mean?
What does dogs licking Lazarus (the common people) mean?
What does angels carrying Lazarus to Abrahams bosom when he died mean if there is no life when the body dies?

Jesus believed in the immortality of the human soul.

But as for the water evaporating? If you die still rejecting that Jesus physically rose form the dead, you will be able to ask the rich man yourself!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Roland Nolette said,
But as for evaporation? what does the water stand for?
What is the impassable gulf? Are you saying that Jewish religious leader4s could not pass over to the good side? So Nicodemus, and Joseph were lost because they were religious leaders?
Does that mean the scores of rabbis, Jewish religious leaders also who accepted Jesus were lost also because of that impassable gulf?
What does Abraham signify?
How about real rich people? were they lost as well?
what does fared sumptuously mean?
What does dogs licking Lazarus (the common people) mean?
What does angels carrying Lazarus to Abrahams bosom when he died mean if there is no life when the body dies?[/QUOTE\]

Are you asking questions like, "what does the water stand for, What is the impassable gulf, What does Abraham signify," to mean we are to take this story symbolically? Because you've been telling me we are to take this as a real historical event that literally happened. Which means the water has to be taken literally, so does the gulf, and Abraham bosom. Are you saying that hell which you say has three compartments grave/Sheol/Hades is Abraham bosom. Because that means you're taking this symbolically. So how do you view what Jesus said about Lazarus and the rich man, was it something that happened in history past and to be taken literally or is it to be taken symbolically. Which is it Robert.

Also nowhere in scripture does it say that paradise is in hell. You saying that hell has three compartments you're going by the pagan place called Hades that was ruled over by the God Hades, which had several compartments. The Hebrew word Sheol was simply the place of the dead or common grave of mankind, and when the Hebrew language was being translated into the Greek language the Hebrew word Sheol was translated Hades, so Sheol and Hades was the same place not different compartments in hell. Hell was the English word that translated Hades. So Hell, Hades, and Sheol are the same place which is the common grave of mankind.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Jesus has shared the following information about the soul:

What distinguishes animal-man from animal-brute?


Where do souls come from? The soul of each man?


Who is God?


Why did God give man a soul?


When does one receive their soul?


What is a soul?


Where is our soul?


What does a soul in Grace possess?


What is it that removes Grace?


— The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. I-V

Many people, when reasoning on the scriptures, have been taught to believe that human beings were given a soul, but the scriptures don't say this. God was very clear when he tells us how he created the first man at Genesis 2:7, that he didn't give man a soul. Genesis 2:7 is very clear which says, God took dust from the ground and formed that dust into a flesh and blood human body, then God blew the breath of life(spirit) into that flesh and blood human body, and that flesh and blood human body became a living soul or living person. So this scripture is very clear how God made the first man, he didn't give him a soul, instead scripture says man became a soul. The flesh and blood human body can never be excluded when discussing the word soul that's in the scriptures. Men and women are souls or all human beings are souls. The scriptures don't say a man/woman was given a soul or that human beings were given a soul. Animals like human beings are souls, animals are not given souls. Genesis 2:7 makes it clear that the soul doesn't separate from his/her body but instead his/her flesh and blood human body is a soul. When that breath of life(spirit) leaves the flesh and blood human body then that flesh and blood human body is a dead soul, when the breath of life is in the flesh and blood human body then the flesh and blood human body is a living soul. So whether you're taking about a lifeless flesh and blood human body or a flesh and blood human body that's still living, that flesh and blood human body is a soul.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Now this is a very interesting comment brother. A living being is indeed a combination of these three things. A being that breathes air. What then is the writer talking about in Matthew 10:28? Bless you!

The Bible does not indicate that all the dead will be resurrected. Jesus implied this when he spoke of “those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things and the resurrection from the dead.” (Lu 20:35) The possibility of eternal destruction for some is also indicated by Jesus’ words at Matthew 10:28: “Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” Regarding this text, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (edited by C. Brown, 1978, Vol. 3, p. 304) states: “Matt. 10:28 teaches not the potential immortality of the soul but the irreversibility of divine judgment on the unrepentant.” Also, Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (revised by F. W. Gingrich and F. Danker, 1979, p. 95) gives the meaning “eternal death” with reference to the Greek phrase in Matthew 10:28 translated “destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” Thus, being consigned to Gehenna refers to utter destruction from which no resurrection is possible.

Since God’s servants have the hope of a resurrection in the event of death, they have the hope of living again as “souls,” or living creatures. For that reason Jesus could say that “whoever loses his soul [his life as a creature] for the sake of me and the good news will save it. Really, of what benefit is it for a man to gain the whole world and to forfeit his soul? What, really, would a man give in exchange for his soul?” (Mark 8:35-37) Similarly, he stated: “He that is fond of his soul destroys it, but he that hates his soul in this world will safeguard it for everlasting life.” (John 12:25) These texts, and others like them, show the correct understanding of Jesus’ words at Matthew 10:28: “Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” While men can kill the body, they cannot kill the person for all time, inasmuch as he lives in God’s purpose (compare Luke 20:37, 38) and God can and will restore such faithful one to life as a creature by means of a resurrection. For God’s servants, the loss of their “soul,” or life as a creature, is only temporary, not permanent.(Revelation 12:11)

Matthew 10:28 states that God “can destroy both soul [psy·khenʹ] and body in Gehenna.” This shows that psy·kheʹ does not refer to something immortal or indestructible. There is, in fact, not one case in the entire Scriptures, Hebrew and Greek, in which the words neʹphesh or psy·kheʹ are modified by terms such as immortal, indestructible, imperishable, deathless, or the like.
On the other hand, there are scores of texts in the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures that speak of the neʹphesh or psy·kheʹ (soul) as mortal and subject to death (Genesis 19:19, 20; Number 23:10; Joshua 2:13, 14; Judges 5:18; 16:16, 30; 1Kings 20:31, 32; Psalm 22:29; Ezekiel 18:4, 20; Matthew 2:20; 26:38; Mark 3:4; Hebrew 10:39; James 5:20); as dying, being “cut off” or destroyed (Genesis 17:14; Exodus 12:15; Leveticus 7:20; 23:29; Joshua 10:28-39; Psalm 78:50; Ezekiel 13:19; 22:27; Acts 3:23; Revelation 8:9; 16:3), whether by sword (Joshua 10:37; Ezekiel 33:6) or by suffocation (Job 7:15), or being in danger of death due to drowning (Jonah 2:5); and also as going down into the pit or into Sheol (Job 33:22; Psalm 89:48) or being delivered therefrom (Psalm 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; Proverbs 23:14).

Plain simple fact is, Genesis 2:7 is stating that God took dust from the ground and formed that dust into a flesh and blood human body then blew the breath of life(neshamath hhayim) into that flesh and blood human body(Basar=flesh) and that flesh and blood human body(Basar=flesh) became a living soul or living person. So anyone who says that breath of life(neshamath hhayim)separately, on it's own without it being in a flesh and blood human body(Basar= flesh) is a living soul or living person, is contradicting Genesis 2:7. Scripture does contradict Scripture, it's only the way a person may reason on Scripture/scriptures that may make it look like scripture contradict Scripture, but Scripture itself doesn't contradict Scripture. There is no scripture that's going to contradict Genesis 2:7.

 

[BeyondET]

Many people, when reasoning on the scriptures, have been taught to believe that human beings were given a soul, but the scriptures don't say this. God was very clear when he tells us how he created the first man at Genesis 2:7, that he didn't give man a soul. Genesis 2:7 is very clear which says, God took dust from the ground and formed that dust into a flesh and blood human body, then God blew the breath of life(spirit) into that flesh and blood human body, and that flesh and blood human body became a living soul or living person. So this scripture is very clear how God made the first man, he didn't give him a soul, instead scripture says man became a soul. The flesh and blood human body can never be excluded when discussing the word soul that's in the scriptures. Men and women are souls or all human beings are souls. The scriptures don't say a man/woman was given a soul or that human beings were given a soul. Animals like human beings are souls, animals are not given souls. Genesis 2:7 makes it clear that the soul doesn't separate from his/her body but instead his/her flesh and blood human body is a soul. When that breath of life(spirit) leaves the flesh and blood human body then that flesh and blood human body is a dead soul, when the breath of life is in the flesh and blood human body then the flesh and blood human body is a living soul. So whether you're taking about a lifeless flesh and blood human body or a flesh and blood human body that's still living, that flesh and blood human body is a soul.

The human body stays alive after death for several days, the immune system will fight death for awhile, stem cells flood the body with enzymes and molecules to try and repair organs, skin and bone stay alive the longest.

 

[BeyondET]

The Bible does not indicate that all the dead will be resurrected. Jesus implied this when he spoke of “those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things and the resurrection from the dead.” (Lu 20:35) The possibility of eternal destruction for some is also indicated by Jesus’ words at Matthew 10:28: “Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” Regarding this text, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (edited by C. Brown, 1978, Vol. 3, p. 304) states: “Matt. 10:28 teaches not the potential immortality of the soul but the irreversibility of divine judgment on the unrepentant.” Also, Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (revised by F. W. Gingrich and F. Danker, 1979, p. 95) gives the meaning “eternal death” with reference to the Greek phrase in Matthew 10:28 translated “destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” Thus, being consigned to Gehenna refers to utter destruction from which no resurrection is possible.

Since God’s servants have the hope of a resurrection in the event of death, they have the hope of living again as “souls,” or living creatures. For that reason Jesus could say that “whoever loses his soul [his life as a creature] for the sake of me and the good news will save it. Really, of what benefit is it for a man to gain the whole world and to forfeit his soul? What, really, would a man give in exchange for his soul?” (Mark 8:35-37) Similarly, he stated: “He that is fond of his soul destroys it, but he that hates his soul in this world will safeguard it for everlasting life.” (John 12:25) These texts, and others like them, show the correct understanding of Jesus’ words at Matthew 10:28: “Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” While men can kill the body, they cannot kill the person for all time, inasmuch as he lives in God’s purpose (compare Luke 20:37, 38) and God can and will restore such faithful one to life as a creature by means of a resurrection. For God’s servants, the loss of their “soul,” or life as a creature, is only temporary, not permanent.(Revelation 12:11)

Matthew 10:28 states that God “can destroy both soul [psy·khenʹ] and body in Gehenna.” This shows that psy·kheʹ does not refer to something immortal or indestructible. There is, in fact, not one case in the entire Scriptures, Hebrew and Greek, in which the words neʹphesh or psy·kheʹ are modified by terms such as immortal, indestructible, imperishable, deathless, or the like.
On the other hand, there are scores of texts in the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures that speak of the neʹphesh or psy·kheʹ (soul) as mortal and subject to death (Genesis 19:19, 20; Number 23:10; Joshua 2:13, 14; Judges 5:18; 16:16, 30; 1Kings 20:31, 32; Psalm 22:29; Ezekiel 18:4, 20; Matthew 2:20; 26:38; Mark 3:4; Hebrew 10:39; James 5:20); as dying, being “cut off” or destroyed (Genesis 17:14; Exodus 12:15; Leveticus 7:20; 23:29; Joshua 10:28-39; Psalm 78:50; Ezekiel 13:19; 22:27; Acts 3:23; Revelation 8:9; 16:3), whether by sword (Joshua 10:37; Ezekiel 33:6) or by suffocation (Job 7:15), or being in danger of death due to drowning (Jonah 2:5); and also as going down into the pit or into Sheol (Job 33:22; Psalm 89:48) or being delivered therefrom (Psalm 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; Proverbs 23:14).

Plain simple fact is, Genesis 2:7 is stating that God took dust from the ground and formed that dust into a flesh and blood human body then blew the breath of life(neshamath hhayim) into that flesh and blood human body(Basar=flesh) and that flesh and blood human body(Basar=flesh) became a living soul or living person. So anyone who says that breath of life(neshamath hhayim)separately, on it's own without it being in a flesh and blood human body(Basar= flesh) is a living soul or living person, is contradicting Genesis 2:7. Scripture does contradict Scripture, it's only the way a person may reason on Scripture/scriptures that may make it look like scripture contradict Scripture, but Scripture itself doesn't contradict Scripture. There is no scripture that's going to contradict Genesis 2:7.

The vessel man was fully formed with nostrils, ears and eyes whole body before the breath was induced. Thus became.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The human body stays alive after death for several days, the immune system will fight death for awhile, stem cells flood the body with enzymes and molecules to try and repair organs, skin and bone stay alive the longest.

I know that there are cells in the human body that live longer than other cells when the human heart stops beating and the human stops breathing. But most doctors will tell us that unless the human body is in some kind of cold environment the brain cells will die in about 3-7 minutes. After this the human will be brain dead. So even if you are able to get the heart beating and lungs taking in oxygen after this time period the person will be a vegetable.

 

[BeyondET]

I know that there are cells in the human body that live longer than other cells when the human heart stops beating and the human stops breathing. But most doctors will tell us that unless the human body is in some kind of cold environment the brain cells will die in about 3-7 minutes. After this the human will be brain dead. So even if you are able to get the heart beating and lungs taking in oxygen after this time period the person will be a vegetable.

The body's immune will fight death for awhile but indeed its to no avail. bones and skin stay active on the cell level for up to 7 days.

Brain cells start dying in a couple minutes. Heart for about a hour and the others follow suit. Last being skin and bone

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The vessel man was fully formed with nostrils, ears and eyes whole body before the breath was induced. Thus became.

The flesh and blood human body that God formed from the dust of the ground didn't become a living soul or living person until after God blew the breath of life(spirit) into that flesh and blood human body.

 

[BeyondET]

The flesh and blood human body that God formed from the dust of the ground didn't become a living soul or living person until after God blew the breath of life(spirit) into that flesh and blood human body.

Indeed and the body had fully created nostrils before that event which means rather it was just a split second after or minutes or hours. It was after the full completion of the vessel.