Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Peter never said those scoffers were unbelievers. Even John claims there are antichrist among believers. Not every negative Scripture points to unbelievers.
The theological fallacy of a spiritual 'resurrection'
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Earburner
Well-Known Member
Why, in all of scripture, is it always revealed that it's a terrible thing, for our unprotected, "uncovered"* flesh, to be in God the Father's literal presence?
Ans. Hebrews 12:18-29
God the Father does not, and cannot change who He Himself is, and makes no excuse for it. It's we who must be "changed", and for us who NOW believe, that shall be done "in the twinkling of an eye".
[29] For our God is a consuming fire.
*Note: 1 Corinthians 15:50-53
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
It is not the physical that is the problem.
It is sin that is the problem.
Two totally different types of flesh. One from Adam. The other from God.
Jesus was not a ghost. Jesus had a physical mother, who was also not a ghost.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Interestingly enough, you forgot Jesus' Father Who is a Spirit (Holy Ghost).
So then, if Jesus was not a "ghost", but just only new and immortal flesh, how did He enter into the room where the disciples were assembled?
John.20[19] Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
We were talking about humans. I never said Jesus stopped being 100% God.
You were disparaging the physical, not what God consists of.
Speaking of which. Should God just be relegated as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
IMO, the Trinity is just a manifestation of God in this current creation. We may never know what God is outside of creation.
Many tend to think spiritual is outside of creation. That is not reality. The physical and spiritual are equally both part of creation. One is not separate from creation.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Notice Truth7t7 has BYPASSED ALL THOSE PREVIOUS Zechariah 14 Scriptures that show the EXISTING EARTH is STILL THERE AFTER Christ's feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives, being His faithful Church with Him...
Zech 14:3-9
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
KJV
What such falseness that Truth7t7 moniker name chosen is! He has NO DESIRE to actually stay with God's Truth! I'd be very careful with listening to such a person who has his own agenda, and that of the false doctrine of men called Amillennialism. I mean, just what KIND of person would go all the way past the above Zechariah 14 Scripture that clearly shows the earth STILL EXISTING after Christ's future return, just to try and use that one Zechariah 14:12 verse?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Please be serious. You are suggesting that believers would scoff at the second coming of Christ? That's nonsense. I'm talking about true believers here. Christians. Saved people. They would never scoff at His second coming.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
No they are scoffing that the Flood of Noah's day was not global. That nothing has happened to change heaven and earth. Some laugh at and call the future millennium nonsense.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as an unsaved person, who is of God's Spirit, or has God's Spirit. All of such are equal to "animal life" as a living soul (nephesh), and therefore have no eternal existence of any kind.
No one born through Adam automatically inherits eternal life, just because they were born of flesh.
When you are talking about two different kinds of human flesh, you just invited the immortality of Jesus' resurrection into the mix.
Our flesh is only temporarily alive.
Because of our need to breathe oxygenated air for our blood supply, Oxygen is delivered to every individual living cell within us, thus making us alive, but only mortal.
Jesus' flesh is now Eternally alive, because of His Holy Spirit, thus making Him immortal. He has no need of a blood supply, and therefore
quite literally has become a New Creation, a New creature. Romans 6:1-9, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
[5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
However, for ALL who are not born again of His Holy Spirit now, they remain to be NONE of His.
John 3:3-8, 18, Romans 8:8-9.
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Earburner
Well-Known Member
Please answer this question for yourself:
WHEN and how did "Living waters" already GO OUT from Jerusalem?
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Truth7t7
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I disagree with your suggestion that Jesus was a spirit/ghost after the resurrection
Truth7t7
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Zechariah 14 showstopper eternal new heavens and earth, where the river of life is present and seen in Zechariah 14:8
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
And you just added human opinion to God's Word.
Adam had a physical body that was permanent and incorruptible before he disobeyed God. Adam was a son of God created on the 6th day. There were thousands of sons of God with permanent incorruptible physical bodies before the Flood. They were not God in that they could not die. They just did not die, unless God took their life away.
Adam physically died the instant he disobeyed God, because that is what God declared. Now we are born with Adam's dead corruptible physical body. Death and corruption cannot enter Paradise. A permanent incorruptible physical body can enter Paradise because sin is not present in a permanent incorruptible physical body.
Jesus never sinned nor had a corruptible physical body. He was not of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. He was the perfect Lamb of God. Jesus was 100% human and 100% God, not half and half. Jesus never disobeyed God, so never had to die physically like Adam did when he disobeyed God.
The Cross was not Jesus disobeying God. God was the Lamb as much as physical Jesus was the Lamb. That is the point no one seems to understand around here. The thief went to Paradise with God that day, because that is what God told the thief on the Cross. God removed the ban from Paradise the same time He rent the temple veil from top to bottom.
No more sacrifices for sin, and no more cut off from the tree of life. Adam's punishment was overturned, but is only experienced for those currently in Paradise who have entered that kingdom that cannot be observed from earth.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I never said that the flood wasn't global. But, as far as what the last days scoffers Peter referenced are scoffing at, they not only scoff at the flood, but they ALSO scoff at the second coming because they don't believe it will happen.
2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”
Notice they ask "Where is this 'coming" he promised?". So, they are scoffing at the idea of His second coming. So, I ask you again, are you saying I am like these scoffers that Peter referenced? Believers look forward to His second coming, they don't scoff at it.
Remember, you said "Peter never said those scoffers were unbelievers". So, you're saying believers would scoff and ask "Where is this coming he promised?"?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Do you think the Second Coming happens at a certain time, because that is all the same thing.
Seems to me that believers don't agree on the coming or even the Millennium Reign. That is all part of the Second Coming whether or not you call it nonsense. Being a scoffer is making light of other people's beliefs concerning the Second Coming.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I don't know when it will be. Jesus Himself said that no one knows the day or hour. Why did you ask me this? And what did you mean when you said "that is all the same thing"?
I'm talking about the context of the scoffers in 2 Peter 3:3-4. The context of the scoffers in that passage has absolutely nothing to do with believers disagreeing on the timing and details related to His second coming. Instead, it has to do with those who don't think He's coming at all and how they scoff at the idea of Him coming again.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
"And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."
They did not state that there was no Second Coming.
DavidTaylor
Member
Acts 26:23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
This is an important verse.
It is the only verse besides Rev 20, that mentions the “proto anastasis” aka the first resurrection.
Acts 26:23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the (first resurrection aka proto anastasis), would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
Understanding this, allows us to see that Jesus Himself is the proto anastasis.
Jesus Himself is the first resurrection.
Knowing this, we can better understand John’s intent to be:
“Blessed and holy is he that hath part in (Jesus Christ the proto anastasis): on such the second death hath no power” Rev 20:6
This makes Jesus’s statement in John’s gospel very clear and harmonizing.
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” John 11:25
This is an important verse.
It is the only verse besides Rev 20, that mentions the “proto anastasis” aka the first resurrection.
Acts 26:23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the (first resurrection aka proto anastasis), would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
Understanding this, allows us to see that Jesus Himself is the proto anastasis.
Jesus Himself is the first resurrection.
Knowing this, we can better understand John’s intent to be:
“Blessed and holy is he that hath part in (Jesus Christ the proto anastasis): on such the second death hath no power” Rev 20:6
This makes Jesus’s statement in John’s gospel very clear and harmonizing.
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” John 11:25
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
No one argues there was not a first physical resurrection. No one argues that only in Christ under the Atonement Covenant, can one even experience the first resurrection.
The point is: most here deny a physical resurrection at all. They think physical means carnal. Obviously the first physical resurrection removes Adam's dead corruptible flesh, for a permanent incorruptible physical body made by God. 2 Corinthians 5:1.
DavidTaylor
Member
I haven’t met anyone yet, denying the future bodily resurrection of mankind that occurs on the last hour of the last day.
That body won’t be carnal though, it will be free of the curse of sin and death, incorruptible and imperishable.
I will keep a watch out though.
That body won’t be carnal though, it will be free of the curse of sin and death, incorruptible and imperishable.
I will keep a watch out though.
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