The theological fallacy of a spiritual 'resurrection'

[Timtofly]

Lol, the only survivors/escapees that are going to populate a Pre-mil futuristic 1000 years, are going to be those who took "the mark of the Beast".

But then again, you do have a situation of double jeopardy with your interpretation.
(1.) There will be no one who took the "mark" that will be saved, and all who weren't change in an instant, upon Jesus' Glorious appearance
(2.) shall NOT escape His fiery presence.

That is not how Revelation 19 reads. All of Adam's flesh is killed at Armageddon. The beast and FP are cast into the LOF. Satan is then bound for 1,000 years. You deny this 1,000 years, because all you have is your scoffing.

It has not been 1,000 years since the Cross. It has been 1992 years. Daniel was told in Daniel 12 that it would be 3500 years before that GWT judgment. If you think Revelation is hard to figure out, Daniel 12 is even more jumbled up.

The half of time covers much of Daniel's 70 weeks, 490 years. We have come 2 times since the Cross, 1992 years. Are you able to prove that Daniel's last time just means an indefinite period called the 2 times? That Daniel really only meant 2.5 or 200.5 or some indefinite amount of time?

Of course you think that what I quoted and said has nothing to do with the Second Coming of Christ.
You conveniently ignored verses 8 and 9 in
2 Thessalonians 1 (< corrected).

I also corrected the typo in my previous post of my reference to 2 Thessalonians. It now correctly stands as chapter 1 verses 7-10.
Sorry about that.

We were not talking about the Second Coming.

We were talking about the 1,000 years after the Second Coming.

 

[Earburner]

More cut and paste avoidance. The truth must scare you. Think about switching to a doctrine that doesn't fear what scripture says about the rod of iron rule happening after the second coming.

The Pre-mil view of an "iron rod rule" says it begins after Christ's second coming. However, as an Amillennialist, I interpret it that the iron rod is symbolic of what happens to clay pots (earthen vessels), when they are struck by the sudden Glorious presence of Christ, with the Saints who were asleep in Christ, and all His Holy angels, upon His Second Coming.
Revelation 19
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite [strike] the nations: and He shall rule [tend, gather] them [as cattle] with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
[17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
[18] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
[19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army.
[20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

[21] And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I would place Amil as "scoffers". They deny a future millennium reign of Christ. They keep saying, "It ain't so". Many even laugh at such pre-mill, as they call it, "nonsense". That is a scoffer to me.

Are you calling Amils scoffers in the same sense that Peter was talking about in 2 Peter 3:3-4?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Pre-mil view of an "iron rod rule" says it begins after Christ's second coming. However, as an Amillennialist, I interpret it that the iron rod is symbolic of what happens to clay pots (earthen vessels), when they are struck by the sudden Glorious presence of Christ, with the Saints who were asleep in Christ, and all His Holy angels, upon His Second Coming.
Revelation 19
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite [strike] the nations: and He shall rule [tend, gather] them [as cattle] with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
[17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
[18] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
[19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army.
[20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

[21] And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Right. That clearly portrays Christ destroying His enemies, not ruling over them. The context of Him ruling over them is directly related to Him smiting them and treading them in the winepress of the wrath of God. That's a picture of destruction, not a picture of letting them survive and then ruling over them. This is obvious. All we have to is look at the OT reference that is being quoted. Psalm 2:8-9 talks about Him BREAKING them with His rod of iron. Again, a picture of destruction, not earthly rule.

Also, Premils ignore verses 17 and 18 that you quoted there. They speak of all unbelievers being destroyed at His return, not just some. And this lines up with other scripture that speaks of Him destroying all of His enemies at His return like Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Now you are just sidestepping the issue with copy and paste text. Typical Amillennial avoidance. I have proven the rod of iron rule does not begin until Christ returns. That proves Premillennialism is correct and avoiding that fact is a typical Amillennial response.

You ignore that Revelation 19:17-18 indicates that He will destroy ALL of His enemies when He returns. You ignore that Revelation 19:15 is referencing Psalm 2:8-9 which talks about Him BREAKING His enemies. That lines up with Him SMITING them and TREADING them in the winepress of God's wrath, as Revelation 19:15 also talks about.

 

[ewq1938]

You ignore that Revelation 19:17-18 indicates that He will destroy ALL of His enemies when He returns.

He destroys all of the army the beast brings to Armageddon. He doesn't go after the civilians of the beast's kingdom. You are ignoring the rule in Revelation 19 is future tense proving a future rule over the nations past Armageddon. That cannot be argued, only ignored and dodged by Amillennialism.

You ignore that Revelation 19:15 is referencing Psalm 2:8-9 which talks about Him BREAKING His enemies.

It's about breaking their organizations and governments etc, not individual slayings. Just as in here:

Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


RULE

G4165
poimaino
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.
Total KJV occurrences: 11

G4165
poimaino
Thayer Definition:
1) to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
1a) to rule, govern
1a1) of rulers
1a2) to furnish pasture for food
1a3) to nourish
1a4) to cherish one’s body, to serve the body
1a5) to supply the requisites for the soul’s need
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4166
Citing in TDNT: 6:485, 901

There is nothing violent about poimaino.


Barnes:

As the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers - The ironic here is that of the vessel of a potter - a fragile vessel of clay - struck with a rod of iron and broken into fragments. That is, as applied to the nations, there would be no power to oppose His rule; the enemies of his government would be destroyed. Instead of remaining firm and compacted together, they would be broken like the clay vessel of a potter when struck with a rod of iron.

The notion of breaking a nation or kingdom up so it is powerless is nothing new in scripture:

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


The kingdom of God which Christ rules will break up the existing kingdoms of the nations leaving the people powerless to rebel. This is when the reign of the rod of iron over these nations takes place for a thousand years.

There is another use of a vessel being destroyed and it is not about killing people but breaking up an organization of people who rebel against God:

Isa 30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
Isa 30:13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
Isa 30:14 And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

The metaphor of a vessel being broken is never about individuals being killed. God didn't kill every Jew. But their rebellion and sin against him caused the demise of their chosen status, even the covenant between them and God. Fast forward to the Millennium and again those who rebel against Christ shall have their wicked organizations broken up, leaving them powerless and unable to organize against Christ during this period of TIME of the reign/rule with a rod of iron. They live to be reigned over. When God allows satan to deceive them, then a brief and failed rebellion occurs and they are killed and judged and are no more forever.

That lines up with Him SMITING them and TREADING them in the winepress of God's wrath, as Revelation 19:15 also talks about.

Until you learn how to identify verb tenses, then all novice interpretations crumble. The smiting and treading are present tense while RULE is future tense.

 

[Timtofly]

Are you calling Amils scoffers in the same sense that Peter was talking about in 2 Peter 3:3-4?

Why would I do that? Most do it in their posting styles, including you. And you claim there was no new heaven and earth after the Flood:

"for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

If the shoe fits, wear it?

"For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

The heavens and earth changed at the Flood. Peter said the old world perished. It was a new heaven and earth after the Flood. There will be a new heaven and earth after the fire of the Second Coming. This current heaven and earth will change again at the Second Coming.

In Revelation 20:11 though that is a change in reality, creation itself. Current earth and heaven will cease to exist altogether, and be replaced like what happened in Genesis 1:1.

But this current reality itself will experience a different heaven and earth within current creation. That is what Peter claims they are scoffing at. Peter also points out that even after the fire change, we still wait for a new heaven and earth. Peter points out the two changes of creation itself, before the change in reality with a totally different creation altogether.

So yes, a scoffer is one who denies a new heaven and earth at both the Flood of Noah's day, and the Second Coming. The Coming of Jesus as Prince will bring a change in heaven and earth, and Jesus will reign from Jerusalem over this changed earth, for 1,000 years, just as Revelation 20 declares. Only John gives the exact length, but Peter implies more waiting, and Paul set the order in 1 Corinthians 15:23-28.

So while the church is this unobserved kingdom, because they are currently enjoying Paradise in permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Jesus is only reigning over the church. At the 7th Trumpet, months after the Second Coming, will it finally be declared a reign physically over all nations/kingdoms. Egypt will be one of the nations in the Millennium per Zechariah 14.

Jesus was reigning over the OT as well. But not Abraham's bosom. Yet most seem to agree the physical Jesus post the Cross was the time, all authority was given to the physical Jesus. I would go a step further, that the physical post resurrection Jesus could step out of creation into eternity, and then appear in time at any point, from the Garden with Adam and Eve. To visit Abraham. To stand in the fiery furnace with the 3 Hebrews.

Not sure why that is any harder to believe than a pre-incarnate body. Where did that body come from, if the Resurrection body can do the same thing? But then again, you all scoffers will just call my post nonsense and laugh with each other about it.

 

[Earburner]

It has not been 1,000 years since the Cross. It has been 1992 years. Daniel was told in Daniel 12 that it would be 3500 years before that GWT judgment. If you think Revelation is hard to figure out, Daniel 12 is even more jumbled up.

.
Daniel 12 is not hard to understand, when one understands that in type and anti-type, it is about Jesus. However, the literal prophecy itself is literally concerning Israel only, upto the first appearance of the Messiah and Pentecost.
Daniel 12[11] And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety [1290] days.
[12] Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty [1335] days.
See the Jewish historical account in
1 Maccabees 1 for a brief outline of the situation between Judas Maccabeus [the prince of the Jews at that time] and the "little horn" Antiochus Epiphanes IV. That historical record is all about the desolation of the literal temple building, and it's restoration through Judas Maccabeus.
The 1290 days to the 1335 days is about that fulfilled event, however in type and anti-type, Jesus used it about Himself, and what the Jews were going to do TO HIM!! The waiting of the disciples in Jesus' time, was for the Giving of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, for OUR restoration back to God. Acts 1:4
From Jesus death to the days of Pentecost is 1335 minus 1290 days= 45 days. The disciples, except for one, came to the 1335 days (Pentecost) and truly were "blessed". Acts 2:1-4

1. To whom is the prophecy of Daniel directed to?
Ans. Daniel 9:24 "thy people", being "the holy people" at that time, aka the Jews.
2. Whose Sacrifice was it, that took away [replaced] the daily sacrifice?
Ans. God's sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world.
3. Who actually committed the abomination that maketh desolate?
Ans. The Jews. Proverbs 6[16] These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
[17] A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,.......

Daniel 12[11] And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
[12] Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
> Many Christians today forget, or are ignorant of the fact that the nation of Israel, as God's chosen people for their time, was to come to their time of an "end", of which it did. Matthew 21:43.

 

[Timtofly]

.
Daniel 12 is not hard to understand, when one understands that in type and anti-type, it is about Jesus. However, the literal prophecy itself is literally concerning Israel only, upto the first appearance of the Messiah and Pentecost.
Daniel 12[11] And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety [1290] days.
[12] Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty [1335] days.
See the Jewish historical account in
1 Maccabees 1 for a brief outline of the situation between Judas Maccabeus [the prince of the Jews at that time] and the "little horn" Antiochus Epiphanes IV. That historical record is all about the desolation of the literal temple building, and it's restoration through Judas Maccabeus.
The 1290 days to the 1335 days is about that fulfilled event, however in type and anti-type, Jesus used it about Himself, and what the Jews were going to do TO HIM!! The waiting of the disciples in Jesus' time, was for the Giving of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, for OUR restoration back to God. Acts 1:4
From Jesus death to the days of Pentecost is 1335 minus 1290 days= 45 days. The disciples, except for one, came to the 1335 days (Pentecost) and truly were "blessed". Acts 2:1-4

1. To whom is the prophecy of Daniel directed to?
Ans. Daniel 9:24 "thy people", being "the holy people" at that time, aka the Jews.
2. Whose Sacrifice was it, that took away [replaced] the daily sacrifice?
Ans. God's sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world.
3. Who actually committed the abomination that maketh desolate?
Ans. The Jews. Proverbs 6[16] These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
[17] A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,.......

Daniel 12[11] And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
[12] Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
> Many Christians today forget, or are ignorant of the fact that the nation of Israel, as God's chosen people for their time, was to come to their time of an "end", of which it did. Matthew 21:43.

So you are saying it is in reverse order. The chapter starts out in our future, and ends up back in the days of Antiochus Epiphanes?

I think the OD is the same way, it starts out at the end and works backwards in time.

Luke was written after 70AD as an historical recognition of certain events.

 

[Davy]

Scripture clearly teaches the heavens and earth will be "Dissolved" by fire to the very "Elements"

Davy you aren't going to change the very clear words of God below, simple, clear, easy to understand

The believer is clearly instructed to look for new heavens and earth, the new creation Revelation 21:1-5

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The Greek for "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10...


NT:4747
stoicheion (stoy-khi'-on); neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of NT:4748; something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively):

KJV - element, principle, rudiment.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

That Greek word for "elements" is NOT actually pointing to earthly material elements like the Atomic Table of earth element chart. It is pointing to an ORDERLY ARRANGEMENT, like a WORLD EARTH AGE.

Did the previous destruction of the flood of Noah's day completely destroy this earth? No. And God simply promised He would not destroy the earth again using water.

How ELSE can we KNOW brethren, that Peter doesn't mean the earth will be completely destroyed, like turned into an asteroid belt? EASY! It is because in Zechariah 14 for Christ's FUTURE RETURN, His feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, ON EARTH, bringing ALL His saints with Him, and a great valley will be formed there...

Zech 14:1-5
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.

4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
KJV

Now how... in the world is all that going to happen on the day of Christ's future return to Jerusalem when He comes to gather us, if the earth is to be turned into an asteroid belt and is no more????

It must mean then, that ONLY the SURFACE OF THIS EARTH is going to be wiped clean by God's consuming fire on that day! OK, there's been two previous world-wide destructions by God upon this earth, and He didn't destroy the whole earth then either, did He?

 

[Earburner]

Right. That clearly portrays Christ destroying His enemies, not ruling over them. The context of Him ruling over them is directly related to Him smiting them and treading them in the winepress of the wrath of God. That's a picture of destruction, not a picture of letting them survive and then ruling over them. This is obvious. All we have to is look at the OT reference that is being quoted. Psalm 2:8-9 talks about Him BREAKING them with His rod of iron. Again, a picture of destruction, not earthly rule.

Also, Premils ignore verses 17 and 18 that you quoted there. They speak of all unbelievers being destroyed at His return, not just some. And this lines up with other scripture that speaks of Him destroying all of His enemies at His return like Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Agreed!
As the saying goes: "You just can't make this stuff up".
But apparently, they have!
Pre-mils support a double jeopardy situation against their own teaching, being that of a future 1000 years of Christ's rule on earth, after Jesus' 2nd coming.
1. Pre-mils believe that those who took the "mark of the Beast" will be spared for a second chance.
2. Even though scripture says that all unbelievers shall not escape God's wrath (1 Thes. 5:3), Pre-mils explain that those who hid themselves in the dens and the rocks, will come out, and inadvertently help those who have the "mark of the Beast", to re-populate the earth. As a result, for those who out-smarted God the first time, God will definitely make sure He doesn't miss anyone the next time, which is what they view as being Gog and Magog.
You might say that He won't make that mistake again (as if God ever makes mistakes).

 

[Davy]

Agreed!
As the saying goes: "You just can't make this stuff up".
But apparently, they have!
Pre-mils support a double jeopardy situation against their own teaching, being that of a future 1000 years of Christ's rule on earth, after Jesus' 2nd coming.
1. Pre-mils believe that those who took the "mark of the Beast" will be spared for a second chance.
2. Even though scripture says that all unbelievers shall not escape God's wrath (1 Thes. 5:3), Pre-mils explain that those who hid themselves in the dens and the rocks, will come out, and inadvertently help those who have the "mark of the Beast", to re-populate the earth. As a result, for those who out-smarted God the first time, God will definitely make sure He doesn't miss anyone the next time.

No, all that did not come from simple belief on the Pre-Mill position. (Even I don't know where all that comes from; I think you're making most of that up.)

I am Pre-mill, which all that means is belief like The Bible reveals with Christ's future thousand years reign beginning at His future return.

And I believe in a Post-trib coming by Christ, because that is what God's Word declares. So being Pre-Mill does NOT necessarily mean believing on a false Pre-trib Rapture either.

So why don't you do more study and get your story straight.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Greek for "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10...


NT:4747
stoicheion (stoy-khi'-on); neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of NT:4748; something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively):

KJV - element, principle, rudiment.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

That Greek word for "elements" is NOT actually pointing to earthly material elements like the Atomic Table of earth element chart. It is pointing to an ORDERLY ARRANGEMENT, like a WORLD EARTH AGE.

Did the previous destruction of the flood of Noah's day completely destroy this earth? No. And God simply promised He would not destroy the earth again using water.

How ELSE can we KNOW brethren, that Peter doesn't mean the earth will be completely destroyed, like turned into an asteroid belt? EASY! It is because in Zechariah 14 for Christ's FUTURE RETURN, His feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, ON EARTH, bringing ALL His saints with Him, and a great valley will be formed there...

Zech 14:1-5
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.

4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
KJV

Now how... in the world is all that going to happen on the day of Christ's future return to Jerusalem when He comes to gather us, if the earth is to be turned into an asteroid belt and is no more????

It must mean then, that ONLY the SURFACE OF THIS EARTH is going to be wiped clean by God's consuming fire on that day! OK, there's been two previous world-wide destructions by God upon this earth, and He didn't destroy the whole earth then either, did He?

Davy It's Not Going To Be A Boy Scout Camp Fire As You Continue To Suggest

No Mortal Human Body Survives After The Second Coming (The End), Only The Righteous Are Left In The Eternal Kingdom, In Glorified Body's

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

 

[ewq1938]

Agreed!
As the saying goes: "You just can't make this stuff up".
But apparently, they have!
Pre-mils support a double jeopardy situation against their own teaching, being that of a future 1000 years of Christ's rule on earth, after Jesus' 2nd coming.

That's what the bible presents as opposed to the imaginary timeline Amillennialism has invented.

1. Pre-mils believe that those who took the "mark of the Beast" will be spared for a second chance.

Not all take the mark. Revelation 2 and 19-20 shows there will be a rule over the nations after Armageddon. Nothing can change that fact. You Amills run and hide from the fact that RULE is in the future tense. Please continue to ignore that, it shows everyone reading who avoids the biblical truth and who does not.

This proves Premillennialism to be correct as all the facts do.

2. Even though scripture says that all unbelievers shall not escape God's wrath (1 Thes. 5:3), Pre-mils explain that those who hid themselves in the dens and the rocks, will come out, and inadvertently help those who have the "mark of the Beast", to re-populate the earth.

Premillennialism doesn't teach this. This is Amillennialism misrepresenting Premillennialism.


Amillennialism teaches in Revelation 19 the sword Christ kills with is actually fire and the army he kills really is him going all over the world killing everyone. Complete nonsense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why would I do that? Most do it in their posting styles, including you. And you claim there was no new heaven and earth after the Flood:

Was my question too difficult for you to answer? Again, are you calling Amils scoffers in the same sense that Peter was talking about in 2 Peter 3:3-4? Yes or no, please.

"for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

If the shoe fits, wear it?

What do you mean by this? I know you don't like the way I talk to you because of how I point out your nonsense, but one thing I would never do is accuse you of being an unbeliever or being unsaved, which is what you are implying if you are saying I'm like the scoffers that Peter wrote about.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He destroys all of the army the beast brings to Armageddon. He doesn't go after the civilians of the beast's kingdom. You are ignoring the rule in Revelation 19 is future tense proving a future rule over the nations past Armageddon. That cannot be argued, only ignored and dodged by Amillennialism.

What you have ignored repeatedly is that it describes the destruction of more than just the army.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Is that part about "ALL PEOPLE" on earth being destroyed at Christ's second coming in your Bible? That lines up with other scripture like Matthew 24:37-39 where Jesus said that just as all unbelievers were destroyed in the flood, that's how it will be at His second coming as well. And it lines up with 2 Thess 1:7-10 where Paul indicated that Jesus will be destroying all those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel of Christ. And it lines up with 2 Peter 3:10-12 where Peter indicated that the earth will be burned up when Christ returns. Obviously, no one can escape that, which is exactly what Paul indicated in 1 Thess 5:2-3.

It's about breaking their organizations and governments etc, not individual slayings. Just as in here:

Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


RULE

G4165
poimaino
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.
Total KJV occurrences: 11

G4165
poimaino
Thayer Definition:
1) to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
1a) to rule, govern
1a1) of rulers
1a2) to furnish pasture for food
1a3) to nourish
1a4) to cherish one’s body, to serve the body
1a5) to supply the requisites for the soul’s need
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4166
Citing in TDNT: 6:485, 901

There is nothing violent about poimaino.


Barnes:




The notion of breaking a nation or kingdom up so it is powerless is nothing new in scripture:

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


The kingdom of God which Christ rules will break up the existing kingdoms of the nations leaving the people powerless to rebel. This is when the reign of the rod of iron over these nations takes place for a thousand years.

There is another use of a vessel being destroyed and it is not about killing people but breaking up an organization of people who rebel against God:

Isa 30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
Isa 30:13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
Isa 30:14 And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

The metaphor of a vessel being broken is never about individuals being killed. God didn't kill every Jew. But their rebellion and sin against him caused the demise of their chosen status, even the covenant between them and God. Fast forward to the Millennium and again those who rebel against Christ shall have their wicked organizations broken up, leaving them powerless and unable to organize against Christ during this period of TIME of the reign/rule with a rod of iron. They live to be reigned over. When God allows satan to deceive them, then a brief and failed rebellion occurs and they are killed and judged and are no more forever.

The context of Revelation 19:11-21 is clearly all about destruction, but you go head and just ignore that if you want. That's on you.

Until you learn how to identify verb tenses, then all novice interpretations crumble. The smiting and treading are present tense while RULE is future tense.

How exactly will He rule over those who He has just killed? Not one of His enemies will be spared, according to scripture. So, what mortals exactly will He rule over and why exactly would they be spared from His vengeance?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, all that did not come from simple belief on the Pre-Mill position. (Even I don't know where all that comes from; I think you're making most of that up.)

I am Pre-mill, which all that means is belief like The Bible reveals with Christ's future thousand years reign beginning at His future return.

And I believe in a Post-trib coming by Christ, because that is what God's Word declares. So being Pre-Mill does NOT necessarily mean believing on a false Pre-trib Rapture either.

So why don't you do more study and get your story straight.

Davy, can you tell us exactly who you believe will populate the earth during a supposed future thousand year reign of Christ on earth?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Agreed!
As the saying goes: "You just can't make this stuff up".
But apparently, they have!
Pre-mils support a double jeopardy situation against their own teaching, being that of a future 1000 years of Christ's rule on earth, after Jesus' 2nd coming.
1. Pre-mils believe that those who took the "mark of the Beast" will be spared for a second chance.
2. Even though scripture says that all unbelievers shall not escape God's wrath (1 Thes. 5:3), Pre-mils explain that those who hid themselves in the dens and the rocks, will come out, and inadvertently help those who have the "mark of the Beast", to re-populate the earth. As a result, for those who out-smarted God the first time, God will definitely make sure He doesn't miss anyone the next time, which is what they view as being Gog and Magog.
You might say that He won't make that mistake again (as if God ever makes mistakes).

Many times in the past I have asked Premils what would make it so that one unbeliever's life would be spared when Christ returns while another unbeliever's life will not? Most of the time they don't even try to answer that question, but when they have their responses have been less than convincing. Paul wrote that Jesus will be taking vengeance on all those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel of Christ when He returns (2 Thess 1:7-10). What unbelievers doesn't fit that description? None. Yet, somehow, Premils have concluded that some who don't know God and don't obey the gospel will somehow be spared.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amillennialism teaches in Revelation 19 the sword Christ kills with is actually fire and the army he kills really is him going all over the world killing everyone. Complete nonsense.

No, complete nonsense is when someone like you thinks that a symbolic sword (you acknowledge that it's symbolic) can somehow be used in a literal, physical way to kill people. You can't get any more nonsensical than that.

 

[Earburner]

So you are saying it is in reverse order. The chapter starts out in our future, and ends up back in the days of Antiochus Epiphanes?

I think the OD is the same way, it starts out at the end and works backwards in time.

Luke was written after 70AD as an historical recognition of certain events.

It's not so much in a reverse order, but rather we should not read prophetic scripture verbatim, in a chronological order.
Dan.12
[1] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
> Michael is symbolic of Jesus

and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
> In what book are "thy (Daniel's) people" found written in?
Ans. The "book of Remembrance". Malachi 3:16

[2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 27:50-53
> On the Day of Pentecost, God did not forget the dead of Israel who died in faith, but had not yet received "the Promise". Though dead, they also were given the Gift of the Holy Spirit, symbolized as "white robes", and are now asleep in Jesus.
> Revelation 6[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar* the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren [Christians], that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

[3] And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
> the Holy Spirit being also given to those who are alive in the flesh, ever since Pentecost.

* Note: An "altar" is a monument of some sort, for the remembrance of a place, an event or a person.