The thief on the cross misconceptions

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Taken

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You guys are out to lunch. What are we saved from? Our past sins; and you aren't saved until they're removed. And how is that done according to the scriptures? It's not by belief or faith only, nor by repentance or confession only.

You are SAVED FROM being separated FROM God.
Your SINS are not “REMOVED” from your Flesh Body.
Your SINS are “FORGIVEN”.
Your BODY, must DIE before it can be CLEANSED, and risen in Glory.
Crucified with Jesus? Dead body. Jesus does the WASHING...and keeping..Your body set aside, called Sanctified.
We are thereafter called “IN” Christ, BECAUSE WE ARE USING His Risen Body....until our body is risen in Glory.
...
The mystery is, your body continues its mortal life....and that SIN in your mortal body....IS COVERED....Covered internally, BY THE LIGHT of the Holy Spirit IN the BODY. Sin is darkness. Shine a Light in darkness and the darkness is no longer seen, called OVERCOME. God does not SEE and does not REMEMBER sin that is COVERED with His Light.

Read the scriptures....Saved, born again, forgiven, sanctified, justified, covered, overcome, receipt of Gods Seed, circumcision of the heart, new heart, Spirit of God IN a man, sins no more.
 

Taken

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You guys are out to lunch. What are we saved from? Our past sins; and you aren't saved until they're removed. And how is that done according to the scriptures? It's not by belief or faith only, nor by repentance or confession only.


Of course it concerns PAST sins...Once Gods Spirit is IN a man...really?
What is His supreme power doing while IN YOU, and you continue to not Believe, which IS SIN against God.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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The article was not even able to produce one valid reason against the necessity of water baptism...the article was full of invalid, illogical arguments, replaced Biblical truth with unprovable theological biases, tried to rewrite Acts 2:38 till it's not even recognizable, cherry picks out some salvific verses while ignoring others, does not deal with how one can be saved apart from obedience to God, takes God's commands to be water baptized and tries to change that Divine command into a human devised work of merit.
 

n2thelight

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The article was not even able to produce one valid reason against the necessity of water baptism...the article was full of invalid, illogical arguments, replaced Biblical truth with unprovable theological biases, tried to rewrite Acts 2:38 till it's not even recognizable, cherry picks out some salvific verses while ignoring others, does not deal with how one can be saved apart from obedience to God, takes God's commands to be water baptized and tries to change that Divine command into a human devised work of merit.
Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus’ death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ’s death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus’ death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus’ payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus’ death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ’s death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus’ death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus’ payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.
--So obedience in doing God's will is a work of merit? Noah building the ark was a work of merit wherefore God owed Noah salvation from the flood? Naaman dipping 7 times in the Jordan was a work of merit wherefore God OWED it to him to heal him?

--Water baptism is a command from God yet you try and change that Divine command to being a directive of man thereby man is adding his "own good works" in being saved. How can water baptism be man ADDING to salvation when God has already commanded it?

--The fact water baptism is commanded by God makes it necessary to salvation if for no other reason for one is rejecting the gospel word by rejecting water baptism, Acts 2:41. You admit "baptism is an important step of obedience" yet on the other hand claim water baptism is "not necessary". Very contradicting. You are in essence claiming obedience to God's will is 'not necessary'. If one of God's commands as water baptism is "not necessary" then ALL of God's commands are 'not necessary'.

--Jn 3:16 does not teach 'faith alone'. The writer of the article you posted wrote:
"Many verses emphasize salvation by grace through faith without mentioning water baptism" and cherry picks verses that do not specifically mention baptism while ignoring verses that do require baptism along with repentance and confession. This cherry picking of verses is bad exegesis and follows no logic, it does not take in account the "sum" (Psa 139:17) of God's word but only taking pieces out of context. Just as every salvific verse does not specifically mention baptism, every salvific verse does not specifically mention grace, the blood of Christ, repentance or xonfession of Christ. Does that mean grace, the blood of Christ, repentance, confession of Christ are all not necessary to salvation also? If the writer of that article was consistent with his so called 'logic', then they would all be just as unncessary to salvation as water baptism for every salvific verse does not specifically mention them either.
 
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n2thelight

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--So obedience in doing God's will is a work of merit? Noah building the ark was a work of merit wherefore God owed Noah salvation from the flood? Naaman dipping 7 times in the Jordan was a work of merit wherefore God OWED it to him to heal him?

--Water baptism is a command from God yet you try and change that Divine command to being a directive of man thereby man is adding his "own good works" in being saved. How can water baptism be man ADDING to salvation when God has already commanded it?

--The fact water baptism is commanded by God makes it necessary to salvation if for no other reason for one is rejecting the gospel word by rejecting water baptism, Acts 2:41. You admit "baptism is an important step of obedience" yet on the other hand claim water baptism is "not necessary". Very contradicting. You are in essence claiming obedience to God's will is 'not necessary'. If one of God's commands as water baptism is "not necessary" then ALL of God's commands are 'not necessary'.

--Jn 3:16 does not teach 'faith alone'. The writer of the article you posted wrote:
"Many verses emphasize salvation by grace through faith without mentioning water baptism" and cherry picks verses that do not specifically mention baptism while ignoring verses that do require baptism along with repentance and confession. This cherry picking of verses is bad exegesis and follows no logic, it does not take in account the "sum" (Psa 139:17) of God's word but only taking pieces out of context. Just as every salvific verse does not specifically mention baptism, every salvific verse does not specifically mention grace, the blood of Christ, repentance or xonfession of Christ. Does that mean grace, the blood of Christ, repentance, confession of Christ are all not necessary to salvation also? If the writer of that article was consistent with his so called 'logic', then they would all be just as unncessary to salvation as water baptism for every salvific verse does not specifically mention them either.
Where in scripture does it say one is condemned if not baptized ?
 
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mailmandan

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Where in scripture does it say one is condemned if not baptized ?
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 
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DJT_47

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Where in scripture does it say one is condemned if not baptized ?
If you believe then you'll follow through with your belief and obey the commandments. If you don't believe then you'll do nothing. It doesn't have to specifically say but it doesn't have to either, it's simply logical and makes common sense. Also the scripture says "baptism doth now save us", 1 Peter 3:21.

Mark 16:15:16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

BAPTISM

Necessity or option?



Baptism is required in order to:

· Be saved

Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”

1st Peter 3:20/21 “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (3:21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Titus 3:5 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost”;

· Wash away/remit sins

· Contact the blod of Christ

· Be added to the Lord’s body which is the church

· Be buried/planted with Him in the likeness of his death thus enabling like resurrection

· Get “into” Him, put on Christ, and become a child of God

· Receive blessings in Him

Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”.

Acts 2:41 “Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls”.

Acts 2:47 “Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”

Acts 22:16 “And now why tarriest thou? arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord”

Rom 6:3 “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death”?

Rom 6:4 “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life”.

Gal 3:26/27 “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ”.

1st Cor 12:13 “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Rom 6:5 “For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection”:

Rev 1:5 “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood”-----

Heb 10:22 “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of Faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water”.

Col 2:12 “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead”.

Steps to becoming a Christian

· (1) Hearing the word/gospel (Rom. 1:16, Mk. 16:15, Rom. 10: 14 thru 17, 1 Cor. 1:21 thru 24, Mat 7:24)

· (2) Believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Mk. 16:16, Heb. 11:6, John 12:46)

· (3) Confessing this before men (Rom. 10:9, 10, Rom. 10:13, Acts 8:37, Mat 10:32)

· (4) Repenting of your sins (Acts 2:38, Luke 13:3, 5, 14:47)

· (5) Being baptized (immersed in water) for the remission (forgiveness) of your sins after which, you are added to the Church (above referenced). (Acts 2:38-41, 47)
 
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ScottA

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The thief on the cross misconceptions

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Post Thu Oct 20, 2022 5:10 pm
I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


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Sorry to be just popping in after not reading all 4 pages of the thread...but you make a good point on the two testaments, and yet that is not the point.

You have essentially brought up two separate issues: That of Two Testaments and two sets of terms, as well as the issue of Baptism. I suspect that the main issue that you meant to address is that of Baptism being required. It is, and yet you did not give the terms. It was John the Baptist who stated the terms, saying "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Matthew 3:11

Water baptism then was and is only until "He who is coming" comes, even including the present day practice of water baptism. Then He comes, of which water is no part, but rather "the Holy Spirit and fire"...which ultimately is the only requirement, for "It is the Spirit who gives life." Of which there is nothing more to be said.​
 

DJT_47

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Water baptism into Christ is required under the NT. My point was not that water baptism isn't required but just not under the OT as a requirement for salvation. It's a moot point and shouldn't enter the discussion as pertains to the thief on the cross which is the point I was making and correcting those that continuely bring it up as substantiation for their erroneous belief that baptism isn't necessary.
 

ScottA

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Water baptism into Christ is required under the NT. My point was not that water baptism isn't required but just not under the OT as a requirement for salvation. It's a moot point and shouldn't enter the discussion as pertains to the thief on the cross which is the point I was making and correcting those that continuely bring it up as substantiation for their erroneous belief that baptism isn't necessary.
Please use the "Reply" feature when replying or no one will know you responded or to whom. It's very helpful.

There is no biblical requirement for "water" baptism.

The passages that speak of baptism do not specify "water." However, the scriptures do specify baptism by the "Spirit." But I do get your point about the Old Testament--yes, it is a moot point.
 
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DJT_47

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Please use the "Reply" feature when replying or no one will know you responded or to whom. It's very helpful.

There is no biblical requirement for "water" baptism.

The passages that speak of baptism do not specify "water." However, the scriptures do specify baptism by the "Spirit." But I do get your point about the Old Testament--yes, it is a moot point.
You are wrong. First of all, the passage you're referring to, 1 Cor 12:13, that was noted in my previous post copied from the kjv which I typically read, says "by one spirit", is a poor translation. See the interlinear wherein it states "in one spirit".

Also, the one baptism is water baptism and is the one baptism meant in "one Lord, one faith, one baptism", Eph 4:5. You can begin the study of it starting with the accounts of John the Baptist who baptized in the Jordan. This is the same baptism meant by the Lord in Mark16:15-16, and is also the same one in Acts 2:38 as well as the one meant in the various passages listed in the aforementioned previous post of mine.
 

ScottA

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You are wrong. First of all, the passage you're referring to, 1 Cor 12:13, that was noted in my previous post copied from the kjv which I typically read, says "by one spirit", is a poor translation. See the interlinear wherein it states "in one spirit".

Also, the one baptism is water baptism and is the one baptism meant in "one Lord, one faith, one baptism", Eph 4:5. You can begin the study of it starting with the accounts of John the Baptist who baptized in the Jordan. This is the same baptism meant by the Lord in Mark16:15-16, and is also the same one in Acts 2:38 as well as the one meant in the various passages listed in the aforementioned previous post of mine.
I see still waters run deep.

No, but you have chosen being born of water rather than being born [again] of the spirit of God, as a form of religious practice that only points to the baptism of Jesus which is "with the Holy Spirit and with fire." However, "It is the Spirit who gives life" and this is the "one baptism"--not the water.
 

DJT_47

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I see still waters run deep.

No, but you have chosen being born of water rather than being born [again] of the spirit of God, as a form of religious practice that only points to the baptism of Jesus which is "with the Holy Spirit and with fire." However, "It is the Spirit who gives life" and this is the "one baptism"--not the water.
Being born of water leads you to the spirit. It's by baptism, also as stated in Acts 2:38, that you receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by which you are truly born.
 

ScottA

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Being born of water leads you to the spirit. It's by baptism, also as stated in Acts 2:38, that you receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by which you are truly born.
You are making the sign a religious practice. It has no power--it is just a sign that was to point to the life given by the Spirit.

It is as Jesus said, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Read it again carefully and notice that He clarifies the meaning, to say that being born of water is to be born of the "flesh", which is not life, but death. That baptism is to be separated from God--to die. Therefore, one must also be born [again] of the spirit of God, for it is only "the Spirit who gives life." Thus, it is only the spiritual baptism that is the One baptism that gives life.
 
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DJT_47

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You are making the sign a religious practice. It has no power--it is just a sign that was to point to the life given by the Spirit.

It is as Jesus said, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Read it again carefully and notice that He clarifies the meaning, to say that being born of water is to be born of the "flesh", which is not life, but death. That baptism is to be separated from God--to die. Therefore, one must also be born [again] of the spirit of God, for it is only "the Spirit who gives life." Thus, it is only the spiritual baptism that is the One baptism that gives life.
You make no sense and apparently choose to ignor the plain and concise language of the bible. Believe what you like. Goodbye
 

mailmandan

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You are making the sign a religious practice. It has no power--it is just a sign that was to point to the life given by the Spirit.

It is as Jesus said, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Read it again carefully and notice that He clarifies the meaning, to say that being born of water is to be born of the "flesh", which is not life, but death. That baptism is to be separated from God--to die. Therefore, one must also be born [again] of the spirit of God, for it is only "the Spirit who gives life." Thus, it is only the spiritual baptism that is the One baptism that gives life.
In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth, which is accompanied by amniotic water and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

Scripture must harmonize with scripture. For someone to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.