The thief on the cross misconceptions

[ScottA]

In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth, which is accompanied by amniotic water and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

Scripture must harmonize with scripture. For someone to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Yes, God has quite literally drawn a picture and given a living parable (--of which none are deprived), and you have given a great depiction of it. Even so, many do not see.

 

[Wrangler]

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures.

I am saddened how people are focused on doing the least they can do to expand the Kingdom of God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes, God has quite literally drawn a picture and given a living parable (--of which none are deprived), and you have given a great depiction of it. Even so, many do not see.

Jn 3:5---------------Spirit ++++++++++++++++ water >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enter the kingdom
1 Cor 12:13----SPirit ++++++++++++++++ baptized >>>>>>>>>>>> into one body
Eph 5:26---------the word ++++++++++++washing of water >>>>>>> cleansed
Tts 3:5-----------Holy Ghost ++++++++++washing of reg. >>>>>>>>> saved
1 Pet 1:22-----Spirit +++++++++++++++obey the truth >>>>>>>>>>> purified

When Jn 3:5 is harmonized with other 'born again' verses, it is clear that water refers to water baptism. There is nothing in the context of Jn 3 that water means anything other than literal water.


Jn 3--------born of water and of the Spirit>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom
Mt 7:21----doeth the will of the Father >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enter the kingdom

Since there is just one way to be saved/enter the kingdom, then there is a definite connection between born of water/water baptism and doing the will of the Father. Since born of water refers to water baptism and God has commanded water baptism, then those who are obedient in DOING God's will in submitting to water baptism will be the ones to enter the kingdom.


1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1 Pet 3:21
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Peter explains how the new birth takes place:

--not of corruptible seed means the physical birth has nothing to do with being born again

--but of incorruptible seed. The word of God is that incorruptible seed (Lk 8:11) by which one is born again. Those who obey God's instructions in the word by submitting to water baptism are then said to be begat through the word (James 1:18) begotten through the gospel (1 Cor 4:15) begotten through the word (1 Pet 1:23)

1 Pet 1:23
To be purified/saved/born again requires;

1) an OBEDIENCE to the truth. Man's role in the new birth is to be born of water, that is, to obey the truth, the word of God (Jn 17:17) in submitting to water baptism as instructed in the Spirit's word (Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47-48: Col 2:11-12; 1 Pet 3:21; etc).

2) the Spirit. The Spirit's role in the new birth is instructing men on how to be saved in His word. Hence those who OBEY that word are therefore begotten by the word as seen above. Man's role in the new birth is to be born of water, that is, to obey the truth, the word of God in submitting to water baptism as instructed in the SPirit's word.

Jn 3:5-------------Spirit ++++++++++++ water >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enter the kingdom
1 Pet 1:22 -----Spirit +++++++++++obey the truth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purified

1) truth can be obeyed
2) truth is the word of Christ, the gospel
3) obedience to the truth is required. Hence the new birth does not require an intellectual knowledge of certain facts about Christ but requires OBEDIENCE which is a response to a command as in Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47-48
4) therefore purification brought about by the new birth CANNOT take place apart from obedience to God's word, the truth.
5) this is why there is a definite connection between being born of water of Jn 3:5 and doing God's will of Mt 7:21:

Jn 3:5--------born of water and of the Spirit>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom
Mt 7:21-----doeth the will of the Father >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enter the kingdom

It therefore is impossible to be born again and be purified apart from obedience to the truth.

 

[ScottA]

When Jn 3:5 is harmonized with other 'born again' verses, it is clear that water refers to water baptism. There is nothing in the context of Jn 3 that water means anything other than literal water.

There is the error (enlarged above).

God is spirit. The words are spirit. On earth as it is in heaven--spirit. That they may be one as We are--spirit.

It would appear that you are not getting the message.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

There is the error (enlarged above).

God is spirit. The words are spirit. On earth as it is in heaven--spirit. That they may be one as We are--spirit.

It would appear that you are not getting the message.

God being a Spirit does not change nor has anything to do with the fact that man has a role in the new birth, that role being "obedience to the truth" in doing the Father's will in submitting to water baptism as God has commanded.
Spirit means literal Spirit in Jn 3:5 just as water means literal water for nothing in the context has water mean anything other than water...yet people try to import their theological bias into the verse and change literal water to mean something else to protect that bias.

 

[ScottA]

God being a Spirit does not change nor has anything to do with the fact that man has a role in the new birth, that role being "obedience to the truth" in doing the Father's will in submitting to water baptism as God has commanded.
Spirit means literal Spirit in Jn 3:5 just as water means literal water for nothing in the context has water mean anything other than water...yet people try to import their theological bias into the verse and change literal water to mean something else to protect that bias.

That is not the problem. You are missing the point and the purpose of all scripture. The future of God's people is "not of this world" or liquid water...nor a temple made with hands, etc.. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The problem is rather people preferring to and holding onto their worldly and fleshly "theological bias" with regard to God and His word, whose kingdom is not of this world.

Get with the program. Or not.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

That is not the problem. You are missing the point and the purpose of all scripture. The future of God's people is "not of this world" or liquid water...nor a temple made with hands, etc.. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The problem is rather people preferring to and holding onto their worldly and fleshly "theological bias" with regard to God and His word, whose kingdom is not of this world.

Get with the program. Or not.

The fact water baptism is commanded is found in the Bible and the fact water baptism saves is found in the BIble and these facts are not negated with God being a Spirit. All that is happening here is you are avoiding the fact that man has a role in the new birth and is not completely passive. Man cannot be born again apart from "obedience to the truth" in doing the Father's will by obediently submitting to water baptism to be born again.

It is only when a person submits to water baptism where one is literally "buried" in a watery grave then "risen" from that watery grave does a spiritual circumcision made "without hands" take place where God removes the body of sin (Col 2:11-12) Yet this spiritual work of God in removing the body of sin does not take place apart from liquid, literal water. You are making things up out of thin air to avoid the facts.

 

[ScottA]

The fact water baptism is commanded is found in the Bible and the fact water baptism saves is found in the BIble and these facts are not negated with God being a Spirit. All that is happening here is you are avoiding the fact that man has a role in the new birth and is not completely passive. Man cannot be born again apart from "obedience to the truth" in doing the Father's will by obediently submitting to water baptism to be born again.

It is only when a person submits to water baptism where one is literally "buried" in a watery grave then "risen" from that watery grave does a spiritual circumcision made "without hands" take place where God removes the body of sin (Col 2:11-12) Yet this spiritual work of God in removing the body of sin does not take place apart from liquid, literal water. You are making things up out of thin air to avoid the facts.

Ernest, sorry for appearing to be harsh, but again, you are under the wrong impression and making assumptions in error. Let's start here:

• In God's reality (the only reality) it is not that "these facts are not negated with God being a Spirit", but that EVERYTHING of this world is negated with God being spirit. The things of this world are only a "dim" view pointing to what is true with God. As such, "the world is passing away." And to cling to the elements hereof, is to pass away with it.

All of the law and commandments are like the Sabbath: Men are not for the commandments, but the commandments are for men.

• "What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made." Likewise the commandments. Thus, when Jesus has come "in to" a person hearing Him standing "at the door knocking and opens it" as He promised, the commandment(s) are not taken away, but "fulfilled" just as He also said. But why then did He give commandments to those who had already been washed clean? Because, they were also commanded to take His words to the ends of the earth and every seceding generation--to show the sign as it was first shown to them. Thus, it still remains a [sign] unto this day.

And where could you possibly have come up with the notion that "water" baptism represents Christ descending into the "earth" ("grave"), if not from an error of your own conjecture or the teachings of other men?

• No such thing is written in the word of God. Such a belief is not a "spiritual work of God" at all, but rather believing that the natural things of this world are spiritual, when they are not. As it is written: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" and "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ."

There is nothing "literal" about "liquid water", for it too was merely "created" and is passing away just as the body of flesh is passing away.

• That is what is meant by being "born of water." Therefore I told you "it is not life, but death" because having been born of the flesh and of water, "you shall surely die."

Now, I realize these things are all news to you and against everything that you have believed was true. But just as it was foretold that lies would be believed causing strong delusion, it was also foretold that we would be lead unto all truth at the sounding of the seventh angel. This is that time. Be blessed!

 

[The Learner]

oh ok, don't get what is going on here.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest, sorry for appearing to be harsh, but again, you are under the wrong impression and making assumptions in error. Let's start here:

• In God's reality (the only reality) it is not that "these facts are not negated with God being a Spirit", but that EVERYTHING of this world is negated with God being spirit. The things of this world are only a "dim" view pointing to what is true with God. As such, "the world is passing away." And to cling to the elements hereof, is to pass away with it.

All of the law and commandments are like the Sabbath: Men are not for the commandments, but the commandments are for men.

• "What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made." Likewise the commandments. Thus, when Jesus has come "in to" a person hearing Him standing "at the door knocking and opens it" as He promised, the commandment(s) are not taken away, but "fulfilled" just as He also said. But why then did He give commandments to those who had already been washed clean? Because, they were also commanded to take His words to the ends of the earth and every seceding generation--to show the sign as it was first shown to them. Thus, it still remains a [sign] unto this day.

And where could you possibly have come up with the notion that "water" baptism represents Christ descending into the "earth" ("grave"), if not from an error of your own conjecture or the teachings of other men?

• No such thing is written in the word of God. Such a belief is not a "spiritual work of God" at all, but rather believing that the natural things of this world are spiritual, when they are not. As it is written: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" and "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ."

There is nothing "literal" about "liquid water", for it too was merely "created" and is passing away just as the body of flesh is passing away.

• That is what is meant by being "born of water." Therefore I told you "it is not life, but death" because having been born of the flesh and of water, "you shall surely die."

Now, I realize these things are all news to you and against everything that you have believed was true. But just as it was foretold that lies would be believed causing strong delusion, it was also foretold that we would be lead unto all truth at the sounding of the seventh angel. This is that time. Be blessed!

This makes no sense. You are making things up out of thin air. Everything you posted above has no Biblical basis whatsoever. You do not give one book, chapter or verse to back up anything you posted. The fact God is a Spirit does not negate in anyway the necessity of water baptism.

You posted:
"And where could you possibly have come up with the notion that "water" baptism represents Christ descending into the "earth" ("grave"), if not from an error of your own conjecture or the teachings of other men?"

What I have actually posted many times is 2 Thess 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

--the verse proves salvation is impossible apart from obedience to the gospel
--the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ, 1 Cor 15:1-4
--when one is water baptized one DIES to sin, the old man of sin DIES, is BURIED in a watery grave then RAISED UP FROM that watery grave to walk in newness of life Rom 6:3-5. There is no obeying the gospel, no death burial and resurrection is faith onlyism, in saying a sinner's prayer, in any kind of "spirit" baptism, etc.
--therefore one has not obeyed the gospel, one is rejecting the gospel as long as one rejects water baptism. Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:" which logically infers those that rejected the gospel word were the one who rejected being water baptized. Therefore being water baptized is receiving the gospel word (Acts 8:12-14; Acts 10:47-48 - Acts 11:1), not being water baptized is rejecting the gospel word.

Proper interpretaion REQUIRES a word be accepted at its literal face value unless something in the context proves the word to be used in some figurative sense. There is NOTHING, NOT ONE THING in the context of Jn 3:5 that "water" means anything other than literal water or that "Spirit" means anything other than literal Spirit. It is those who have allowed themselves to be deceived faith onlyism who cannot take the verse at face vailue therefore because of nothing more than THEOLOGICAL BIAS and NOTHING in the context of Jn 3:5 they must make Jn 3:5 conform their bias.

 

[David in NJ]

In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth, which is accompanied by amniotic water and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

Scripture must harmonize with scripture. For someone to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

All of which you stated is = 'YEAH and AMEN'

Truth(your conclusion) = "Scripture must harmonize with scripture. For someone to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted."

TY

 

[David in NJ]

oh ok, don't get what is going on here.

a few confused water minded people who are attempting to throw water on Holy Spirit Fire

they struggle with the fact it has no effect

 

[Dropship]

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true..

I haven't been baptised because it simply never crossed my mind, so will i be going to hell?

 

[David in NJ]

@rwb @Taken @Johann

the Thief on cross next to NT Salvation would make for a GREAT Movie

Focusing on the lives of the Thief intermingled with Jesus forgiving people (adultress caught in the act and others) leading up to how the Theif was condemned, side by side with how Jesus was condemned, and NO DOUBT the thief had been hearing of Jesus as we get closer to the Day of Judgment = Golgatha.

ALSO - i would absolutely leave out that the Thief was ever water baptized for these reasons:

#1.) MAGNIFY the Lord Jesus Christ
#2.) BIG PICTURE Salvation Message = not of works = focus on God moving this man's heart/life leading to Faith/Salavtion
#3.) No record in Scripture of the Thief being water baptized
#4) i love sticking it to religion (and so does everyone who is saved from it)

What a powerful Outreach Movie to be shown in schools, universities, homes, outdoor showings and prisons.
Peace

 

[David in NJ]

I haven't been baptised because it simply never crossed my mind, so will i be going to hell?

i was fully Saved about a year before i was baptised in water

By Far, the BEST Baptism is found in Gospel of John and Acts

 

[ScottA]

This makes no sense. You are making things up out of thin air. Everything you posted above has no Biblical basis whatsoever. You do not give one book, chapter or verse to back up anything you posted. The fact God is a Spirit does not negate in anyway the necessity of water baptism.

You posted:
"And where could you possibly have come up with the notion that "water" baptism represents Christ descending into the "earth" ("grave"), if not from an error of your own conjecture or the teachings of other men?"

What I have actually posted many times is 2 Thess 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

--the verse proves salvation is impossible apart from obedience to the gospel
--the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ, 1 Cor 15:1-4
--when one is water baptized one DIES to sin, the old man of sin DIES, is BURIED in a watery grave then RAISED UP FROM that watery grave to walk in newness of life Rom 6:3-5. There is no obeying the gospel, no death burial and resurrection is faith onlyism, in saying a sinner's prayer, in any kind of "spirit" baptism, etc.
--therefore one has not obeyed the gospel, one is rejecting the gospel as long as one rejects water baptism. Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:" which logically infers those that rejected the gospel word were the one who rejected being water baptized. Therefore being water baptized is receiving the gospel word (Acts 8:12-14; Acts 10:47-48 - Acts 11:1), not being water baptized is rejecting the gospel word.

Proper interpretaion REQUIRES a word be accepted at its literal face value unless something in the context proves the word to be used in some figurative sense. There is NOTHING, NOT ONE THING in the context of Jn 3:5 that "water" means anything other than literal water or that "Spirit" means anything other than literal Spirit. It is those who have allowed themselves to be deceived faith onlyism who cannot take the verse at face vailue therefore because of nothing more than THEOLOGICAL BIAS and NOTHING in the context of Jn 3:5 they must make Jn 3:5 conform their bias.

I gave the "Biblical basis", you rejected it.

Enjoy then the things of this world which are only short lived.

 

[Dropship]

Some years ago I was sitting on a bench near Leicester's Town Hall square where a big baptist meeting was being held, and baptists were handing out leaflets to passersby, so I asked some of them "I love Jesus but haven't been baptised, so will I be going to hell?", but they couldn't or wouldn't give me a straight answer, so they called their Main Man over and I asked him the exact same question and he replied with a smile "No, you won't be going to hell", and my respect for baptists went up a few notches..

 

[rwb]

Some years ago I was sitting on a bench near Leicester's Town Hall square where a big baptist meeting was being held, and baptists were handing out leaflets to passersby, so I asked some of them "I love Jesus but haven't been baptised, so will I be going to hell?", but they couldn't or wouldn't give me a straight answer, so they called their Main Man over and I asked him the exact same question and he replied with a smile "No, you won't be going to hell", and my respect for baptists went up a few notches..

Water baptism saves none, nor does the lack of being water baptized condemn anyone. People often don't realize that Christ gave us the SIGN using water baptism as a means of showing the world that His Church while on earth is separate from the world of unbelief. Water baptism is a sign which points to the true baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves. And the sign symbolizes belonging outwardly to the fellowship of believers, the Church. Because there is only one body of Christ, and baptism is to simply acknowledge that the body together; i.e. the Church on earth is an outward picture/symbolism of the spiritual Church in heaven.

 

[Dropship]

If water-baptism makes some people feel closer to God that's fine, but there's a danger it'll make them think "I'm saved now, so satan won't get me", and as a result they'll drop their guard against him, thinking they're invulnerable.
This verse shows that water-baptism guarantees nothing-
"..they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." (Acts 8:15-16)

And this verse shows that the holy spirit can come without water-baptism-
"The Caesareans have received the holy spirit, so let us baptise them" (Acts 10:47)

And Paul downplayed the importance of water-baptism-
"Jesus sent me not to baptise, but to preach the gospel" (1 Cor 1:17)

 

[rwb]

If water-baptism makes some people feel closer to God that's fine, but there's a danger it'll make them think "I'm saved now, so satan won't get me", and as a result they'll drop their guard against him, thinking they're invulnerable.
This verse shows that water-baptism guarantees nothing-
"..they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." (Acts 8:15-16)

And this verse shows that the holy spirit can come without water-baptism-
"The Caesareans have received the holy spirit, so let us baptise them" (Acts 10:47)

And Paul downplayed the importance of water-baptism-
"Jesus sent me not to baptise, but to preach the gospel" (1 Cor 1:17)

Yes, I agree! Especially in Catholicism, those who rush to baptize infants fearing they might die and be condemned to eternal damnation without being sprinkled with holy water. That's why it's important for Christians to correct this error. We don't correct error by teaching that water baptism is an outward sign of an inward conversion. That's not much different than what Catholics believe. Though this may be speaking truth, it is not consistently true. These erroneous teachings have become so prevalent in Churches that the real meaning for the sign is lost. Water baptism, like the sign of circumcision of Old is to identify whosoever is among the Covenant body of believers. This sign gift is for the called out of this world ones, who will demonstrate through changed lives that they are not only members of Christ's Covenant body outwardly, but also spiritual members of His body inwardly.