The thief on the cross misconceptions

[Ernest T. Bass]

Do you not understand God's use of signs? I believe you do, but simply have not considered it or applied it here.

The "necessity" of water baptism is as a sign (for teaching by example), but the "requirement" is rather the baptism of Christ by the Holy Spirit. The two are different. Such is the difference between all signs as compared with what they are actually a sign of.

Remember what is written of John the Baptist and why he did what he did: "Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight.” That is all that water baptism is--it is a preparation for "the way of the Lord", which is His baptism by the Holy Spirit.

The Bible does not define water baptism as a 'sign' and nothing more. Water baptism is the means God has chosen to saved men.

There is no baptism of the Holy Spirit today for the one baptism (Eph 4:5) in effect today is water baptism. Nowhere was anyone commanded to be baptized by the Holy Spirit nor does any verse say baptism by the HS saves. If one is "required" to be baptized by the HS yet one has not rreceived that baptism, then the HS is culpable for one failing to meet that requirement. No man can command the HS to baptize him. Since water baptism is commanded then man is culpable for not following that command.

John's baptism was for the remission of sins not just preparation for the way of the Lord. Again, the purpose of water baptism of the NT gospel is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) hence water baptism saves (1 Pet 3:21).

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

But if baptism is absolutely essential for salvation why isn't it one of the 10 Commandments?..

View attachment 29382

Water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins was not available under the NT law for Christ had not yet shed His blood that remits sins (Heb 9:22). All they had under the OT law was the blood of bulls and goats that could not remit sins..For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (Heb 10:4), I see that repentance (Lk 13:3; Rom 2:4-5) or confession (Mt 10:32-33; Rom 10:9-10) are not in the ten commandments but that does not make them unnecessary to salvation either.

 

[ScottA]

The Bible does not define water baptism as a 'sign' and nothing more. Water baptism is the means God has chosen to saved men.

There is no baptism of the Holy Spirit today for the one baptism (Eph 4:5) in effect today is water baptism. Nowhere was anyone commanded to be baptized by the Holy Spirit nor does any verse say baptism by the HS saves. If one is "required" to be baptized by the HS yet one has not rreceived that baptism, then the HS is culpable for one failing to meet that requirement. No man can command the HS to baptize him. Since water baptism is commanded then man is culpable for not following that command.

John's baptism was for the remission of sins not just preparation for the way of the Lord. Again, the purpose of water baptism of the NT gospel is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) hence water baptism saves (1 Pet 3:21).

You gave yourself away in the first sentence.

It is true (as you say)...kind of, that "The Bible does not define water baptism as a 'sign"...but only because the words are not literary, but are spirit. And therefore, you missed the real information. And if you do not believe that much of scripture is parable and metaphor in nature as it is declared to be--then keep doing what you are doing. On the other hand, if you believe that there is more meaning to the words of the scriptures than of the words themselves...then you may want to "hear what the spirit says to the churches."

That's what I have been talking about. Your choice.

 

[The Learner]

start at

• #117

 

[The Learner]

start at

• #116

 

[Dropship]

Incidentally why did Jesus go to John to be baptised?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You gave yourself away in the first sentence.

It is true (as you say)...kind of, that "The Bible does not define water baptism as a 'sign"...but only because the words are not literary, but are spirit. And therefore, you missed the real information. And if you do not believe that much of scripture is parable and metaphor in nature as it is declared to be--then keep doing what you are doing. On the other hand, if you believe that there is more meaning to the words of the scriptures than of the words themselves...then you may want to "hear what the spirit says to the churches."

That's what I have been talking about. Your choice.

Those that deny the Bible's teaching on the necessity of water baptism define water baptism in ways the Bible does not in an attempt to undermine its necessity. God commands men to be water baptized therefore being water baptized is sunmitting in obedience to God's will yet some on this forum try to define obedience as a work of merit then falsely claim water baptism is a work of man done to merit salvation. The BIble teaches the purpose of water baptism is in order to be saved yet some try and define water baptism as merely a sign of one already is saved, again, giving it a definition the Bible does not.
You are trying to take water baptism where one is literally buried in a watery grave and then raised up from that watery grave (Rom 6:3-5) and reduce it to nothing more than something "spiritual" and not a literal burial and resurrection. The eunuch and Philllip went down into literal water and Phillip literally baptized him. This is literal water and a literal burial into literal water and resurrection from literal water. All you have posted so far have no Bible basis but you are making ideas up OUT OF THIN AIR in an attempt to get around the necessitry of water baptism.

 

[ScottA]

Those that deny the Bible's teaching on the necessity of water baptism define water baptism in ways the Bible does not in an attempt to undermine its necessity. God commands men to be water baptized therefore being water baptized is sunmitting in obedience to God's will yet some on this forum try to define obedience as a work of merit then falsely claim water baptism is a work of man done to merit salvation. The BIble teaches the purpose of water baptism is in order to be saved yet some try and define water baptism as merely a sign of one already is saved, again, giving it a definition the Bible does not.
You are trying to take water baptism where one is literally buried in a watery grave and then raised up from that watery grave (Rom 6:3-5) and reduce it to nothing more than something "spiritual" and not a literal burial and resurrection. The eunuch and Philllip went down into literal water and Phillip literally baptized him. This is literal water and a literal burial into literal water and resurrection from literal water. All you have posted so far have no Bible basis but you are making ideas up OUT OF THIN AIR in an attempt to get around the necessitry of water baptism.

And there you go again back to your temple made of stone, debasing the spirit, preferring the example words over their spiritual meaning, while worshiping created things and enjoying the thick air. So be it.

Yes, what I have told you is from beyond the water and the air and him who rules over it for a time, and for the record, you have rejected it. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[David in NJ]

Do you not understand God's use of signs? I believe you do, but simply have not considered it or applied it here.

The "necessity" of water baptism is as a sign (for teaching by example), but the "requirement" is rather the baptism of Christ by the Holy Spirit. The two are different. Such is the difference between all signs as compared with what they are actually a sign of.

Remember what is written of John the Baptist and why he did what he did: "Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight.” That is all that water baptism is--it is a preparation for "the way of the Lord", which is His baptism by the Holy Spirit.

"And while they were gathered together, He commanded them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."


HalleluYAH HalleluYAH HalleluYAH

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

And there you go again back to your temple made of stone, debasing the spirit, preferring the example words over their spiritual meaning, while worshiping created things and enjoying the thick air. So be it.

Yes, what I have told you is from beyond the water and the air and him who rules over it for a time, and for the record, you have rejected it. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I'll debate/discuss with you what the BIble says about baptism but not debate the things you keep making up out of thin air. You CONTINUE to define baptism in a way the Bible does not. When will you admit what the BIble says when it says water baptism saves and therefore salvation is impossible apart from water baptism? Acts 8 with the eunuch, Acts 10 with the Gentiles, water baptism involved a literal immersion in literal water...not a spiritual baptism, not a sign one is already saved.

 

[ScottA]

I'll debate/discuss with you what the BIble says about baptism but not debate the things you keep making up out of thin air. You CONTINUE to define baptism in a way the Bible does not. When will you admit what the BIble says when it says water baptism saves and therefore salvation is impossible apart from water baptism? Acts 8 with the eunuch, Acts 10 with the Gentiles, water baptism involved a literal immersion in literal water...not a spiritual baptism, not a sign one is already saved.

I have been explaining Baptism according to just what is written, but thinking as men think you have not understood.

1 Peter 3:21
There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.​

Perhaps you would rather hear it from another:

"And while they were gathered together, He commanded them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."


HalleluYAH HalleluYAH HalleluYAH

 

[DJT_47]

"And while they were gathered together, He commanded them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."


HalleluYAH HalleluYAH HalleluYAH

And that was the statement made by Jesus to the APOSTLES in Luke 24:49. And THEY did receive power from on high as recorded in Acts 2. The power was meant for THEM, and was manifested through THEM in the form of the gifts of the Spirit, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10,
by the laying on of THEIR hands.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I have been explaining Baptism according to just what is written, but thinking as men think you have not understood.

1 Peter 3:21​

There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.​

Perhaps you would rather hear it from another:

----in 1 Pet 3:20-21 Peter says baptism saves. Regardless of what the resto f the verse or context of the BIble says, NOTHING changes the fact that baptism saves, baptism therefore is the means by which God has chosen to save men.

---
v20....saved by water (flood)
v21....saved by water (baptism)

Peter is making an OT type to NT antitype comparison. Therefore the kind of baptism Peter is spaeking about is WATER baptism that saves. The earth was not figuratively flooded with Spirit but literally flooded with water......water means literal water as it doews in John 3:5.

---
not putting away the filth of the flesh. Filth of the flesh is cleaned away with water, not spirit. Water baptism of the NT is not just some ceremonial cleansing of the flesh as under the OT.

Hence the context here is about literal water and not the Holy Spirit. God is making a parallel between flood water that saved Noah and water baptism by which we are today saved. This cannot therefore be some Spirit baptism for God is not making a parallel between an event that involved more water than any other event in history with the Holy Spirit.

----
but an appeal to God for a good conscience - an appeal means an ernest seeking, an intense desire, longing for something. Hence water baptism is HOW one goes about obtianing that good conscience. Those lost Jews in Acts 2 were convicted of their sins by Peter of crucifying the Messiah. It pricked them in their heart hence they asked 'what must we do'. They made an appeal, an earnest seeking, an intense desire to have something done about their sins. Peter commanded them to repent and be baptized for remission of sins. Therefore water baptism is how they would have their sin remitted in order to have a clear conscience before God. Water baptism therefore is what stands between the lost and the saved as the flood waters seperated the saved, Noah & his family, from the lost.

==========================

As DJT_47 already points out, Jesus was speaking to His apostles...context matters. It was just the Apostles in Acts 2 who had the HS come upon them with power.

Acts 1:1-8 was the fulfillment of Matt 3:11 that says
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

--neither of the pronouns "you" refer to anyone today. The second pronoun 'you' does not refer to anyone today just as the first use of the pronoun 'you' does not refer to anyone today. People try and make themselves the second 'you' with no contextual foundation.

Context matters:
in the context John is speaking, he is speaking to Pharisees that came to where he was water baptizing (v7) and John says to them "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance".

Why would John say to those Pharisees that I baptize YOU with water when he had not for the Pharisees rejected John's baptism (Luke 7:30)?

It becomes apparent that John is using both pronouns "you"in a generic sense** to announce the kind of baptism he baptized with and the kinds of baptisms Christ would baptize with. Therefore neither pronoun "you" refers to anyone John was speaking to nor do they refer to anyone today. So from the immediate context of Matt 3:11 we cannot know who the YOU is that will be baptized with the HS. But we see the fulfillment of Mt 3:11 in Acts 1:1-5 when Jesus was speaking to His Apostles. Jesus even references what John says in Matt 3:11 in Acts 1:5. Now we know that the second pronoun YOU of Matt 3:11 refers to the Apostles as seen by the fulfillment of Matt 3:11 in Acts 1:1-8. There is no way contextually from Mt 3:11 nor from the fulfillment of Mt 3:11 that the second pronoun YOU refers to anyone today receiving baptism with the Holy Ghost.

**there is an old saying that goes; "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink".
Both pronouns 'you' are used in a generic sense, they do not refer to anyone specifically but are used to make a point.

 

[ScottA]

----in 1 Pet 3:20-21 Peter says baptism saves. Regardless of what the resto f the verse or context of the BIble says, NOTHING changes the fact that baptism saves, baptism therefore is the means by which God has chosen to save men.

---
v20....saved by water (flood)
v21....saved by water (baptism)

Peter is making an OT type to NT antitype comparison. Therefore the kind of baptism Peter is spaeking about is WATER baptism that saves. The earth was not figuratively flooded with Spirit but literally flooded with water......water means literal water as it doews in John 3:5.

---
not putting away the filth of the flesh. Filth of the flesh is cleaned away with water, not spirit. Water baptism of the NT is not just some ceremonial cleansing of the flesh as under the OT.

Hence the context here is about literal water and not the Holy Spirit. God is making a parallel between flood water that saved Noah and water baptism by which we are today saved. This cannot therefore be some Spirit baptism for God is not making a parallel between an event that involved more water than any other event in history with the Holy Spirit.

----
but an appeal to God for a good conscience - an appeal means an ernest seeking, an intense desire, longing for something. Hence water baptism is HOW one goes about obtianing that good conscience. Those lost Jews in Acts 2 were convicted of their sins by Peter of crucifying the Messiah. It pricked them in their heart hence they asked 'what must we do'. They made an appeal, an earnest seeking, an intense desire to have something done about their sins. Peter commanded them to repent and be baptized for remission of sins. Therefore water baptism is how they would have their sin remitted in order to have a clear conscience before God. Water baptism therefore is what stands between the lost and the saved as the flood waters seperated the saved, Noah & his family, from the lost.

==========================

As DJT_47 already points out, Jesus was speaking to His apostles...context matters. It was just the Apostles in Acts 2 who had the HS come upon them with power.

Acts 1:1-8 was the fulfillment of Matt 3:11 that says
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

--neither of the pronouns "you" refer to anyone today. The second pronoun 'you' does not refer to anyone today just as the first use of the pronoun 'you' does not refer to anyone today. People try and make themselves the second 'you' with no contextual foundation.

Context matters:
in the context John is speaking, he is speaking to Pharisees that came to where he was water baptizing (v7) and John says to them "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance".

Why would John say to those Pharisees that I baptize YOU with water when he had not for the Pharisees rejected John's baptism (Luke 7:30)?

It becomes apparent that John is using both pronouns "you"in a generic sense** to announce the kind of baptism he baptized with and the kinds of baptisms Christ would baptize with. Therefore neither pronoun "you" refers to anyone John was speaking to nor do they refer to anyone today. So from the immediate context of Matt 3:11 we cannot know who the YOU is that will be baptized with the HS. But we see the fulfillment of Mt 3:11 in Acts 1:1-5 when Jesus was speaking to His Apostles. Jesus even references what John says in Matt 3:11 in Acts 1:5. Now we know that the second pronoun YOU of Matt 3:11 refers to the Apostles as seen by the fulfillment of Matt 3:11 in Acts 1:1-8. There is no way contextually from Mt 3:11 nor from the fulfillment of Mt 3:11 that the second pronoun YOU refers to anyone today receiving baptism with the Holy Ghost.

**there is an old saying that goes; "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink".
Both pronouns 'you' are used in a generic sense, they do not refer to anyone specifically but are used to make a point.

1 Peter 3:21 does not say that "baptism saves" unless you take it out of context. But rather says that it is like Noah and those, not literally saved in salvation, but saved from the flood as a foreshadowing image of what would only come by the Holy Spirit through the baptism of Jesus.

 

[David in NJ]

1 Peter 3:21 does not say that "baptism saves" unless you take it out of context. But rather says that it is like Noah and those, not literally saved in salvation, but saved from the flood as a foreshadowing image of what would only come by the Holy Spirit through the baptism of Jesus.

If water could save us then Christs Blood is to no avail.................Chickens before eggs = Genesis

 

[DJT_47]

1 Peter 3:21 does not say that "baptism saves" unless you take it out of context. But rather says that it is like Noah and those, not literally saved in salvation, but saved from the flood as a foreshadowing image of what would only come by the Holy Spirit through the baptism of Jesus.

Baptism saves, period because that's what tge scriptures say. How does one become part of the Lord's body and member of the church according to scripture? How are you buried with Christ to like be risen with him?

 

[David in NJ]

Baptism saves, period because that's what tge scriptures say. How does one become part of the Lord's body and member of the church according to scripture? How are you buried with Christ to like be risen with him?

Water baptism saves no one and the Scripture says so.

Read the whole chapter and get to SEE the whole Truth.

 

[DJT_47]

Well, that's not what Peter said, nor Jesus as recoreded in Mark 16:15-16. So, should one today believe you, or the words of Peter and the Lord? Only the silly ones will believe you as opposed to them.

 

[David in NJ]

Well, that's not what Peter said, nor Jesus as recoreded in Mark 16:15-16. So, should one today believe you, or the words of Peter and the Lord? Only the silly ones will believe you as opposed to them.

Jesus and Peter never said 'water baptism' saves us = never.

Go back and read carefully and exactly every word that was spoken concerning Salvation.

CLUE - Chicken before eggs

CLUE - We are not saved by the outward (purifying rituals of the flesh)

 

[DJT_47]

Believe what you like but the plain and simple words don't lie. Clue: you are clueless