The Trinity definition

[amadeus]

@justbyfaith

Amadeus said:
We can only follow our heart

Jer 17:9, The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Pro 28:26, He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.

Communication is always a problem, isn't it? I already replied to another person about the very same verses here:

The Trinity definition

When our heart is led by the Holy Spirit, should we not follow? When our old man leads the way in our heart, then it is deceitful and wicked and we would be foolish to follow it. This is why Apostle Paul writes that we Not quench the Spirit!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

so can a person who denies the deity of Christ and the Trinity who has studied the bible in depth be saved ?

You are now asking me to draw the line, determine who will go and who will not. You would have to be omniscient to know who gets saved. God will save whomever He chooses. He will draw them with an outward calling and an inward calling, open their eyes and enable them to believe.
It's as if you are worried if God will get the job done. If a person is a reprobate, you couldn't know for sure anyways.
The Bible is spiritually discerned. There are tares among the wheat. Satan has workers among us, disguising themselves as Christians and even teaching false doctrines. By their fruit you will know them. There are scholars, like those of the Jesus Seminar and others who misinterpret scriptire and purposely distort scripture and mislead others. Stay away from them. There is a rule for Evangelizing someone. Give them your best case for Jesus, and any doctrine. If they don't accept it, pray for them and move on - dust the dirt off your sandals. We can get into endless debates as you see in this forum on various topics, some essential, some not.

 

[jaybird]

Another fallacious argument. Scripture declares the Son is God in numerous places in both testaments.

no trinitarians deny Jesus is a man and as a man was limited.

Just because you deny and cannot wrap your head around His Deity does not make it untrue. The fact is Scripture calls Him God in many places but since you cannot read scripture with an OPEN mind and must read it through the glasses of a unitarian makes your view biased. On the other hand I believe scripture when it calls Jesus God and man which you are FORCED to deny because of your denomination, religion, indoctrination etc..........

hope this helps !!!

its not that i cant understand it, its the fact that this idea just does not hold water, in order for it to add up you have to ignore so many things, one big one is the fact that we, mankind, are not the Most High.

scripture calling Jesus elohim does not make Jesus the Most High. the Most High is an elohim but not all elohim are the Most High.

 

[jaybird]

JB, I think you have done a smashing job thus far in discussing this subject of THE MOST HIGH to a new 'high.' You have clearly shown that this Greek idiom and phrase can only apply to our Father. I feel now compelled and so moved by your patiently delivered arguments, that I want to now capture its essence and incorporate it as a summary in my ongoing Commentary of the Bible I'm still writing.... that I believe I spoke to about a couple of year or so ago...

Keep up the Bible Study..you and @DNB ....explain scripture, as two distinct styles and approaches, that are edifying to me, at least...APAK

thank you AP but im still learning myself. the creator has many titles, i prefer to use "Most High" as it only applies to the One. Elohim or G-D can be applied to others and can get confusing as we see in this discussion, so many when they see the word "elohim" they automatically assume its talking about the Most High but its not always the case.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

@Christophany
Very well said RDB! I don't agree with trinitarianism whatsoever, and if I had to make a decision at this point, I would say that one cannot be saved believing in the trinity, because I believe that there is no efficacy in God propitiating Himself, nor can He be tempted or die, nor is there any point in Him raising Himself from the dead in order to sit by His own right-hand side. I trust that you can appreciate my contentions.

But, my question at this point, in regard to what you said about not requiring full theological acumen to be saved, in your mind, are there any parameters at all that are necessary to be saved ie. what is the minimal understanding that one must have in order to attain salvation?
Thanks!

Faith comes by the Word. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Eph. 2:8, 9

It is a gift from God so stop thinking that one has to qualify to receive the gift. He gives it to sinners. He enables us to seek Him and believe. As we discover who Jesus is and what he did, we begin to believe. 4w
JW's don't believe in the Trinity and are quite adamant about it. They even disconnect themselves from the entire body of Christ (some 2.5 billion believers). They would of course be in error to invalid us as believers. They believe in Jesus. I just think they have major doctrinal flaws. Still I am not their Judge and cannot invalidate their faith. I just don't think God grows their organization. In over 100 years all they have are 8+ million JW's worldwide. That is not being filled with the Holy Spirit, whom they think is a force. In 1900 there were 500 million Christians and now 5x that amount - that's God growing the Church.

 

[jaybird]

No; Jesus is 100% Man and 100% God. it does not mean that he cannot be tempted in His humanity but not in His Deity.

it cant be both, He was either tempted or not tempted, and if only His human part was tempted than it means He has another part that did not get tempted, that other part makes Jesus a divided Jesus, part of Him is one thing and part of Him is another. none the less, Human beings are not divided this way making this "divided" Jesus nothing like us.

do you see how absurd this idea is or are you just gonna continue with this. i mean you really have to go way out into left field to buy into this.
this is a good example of why orthodox Jews will have nothing to do with the faith today, those guys start Hebrew school at five, very biblical sound mind, and you will never get them to buy into this nonsense. but when Jesus and the 12 taught, Jews followed them everywhere and loved what they were teaching, so what does that say about the trinity teaching?

 

[DNB]

Yes, logos is the expression associated and inextricably tied to being. I prefer to add it is the expressive purpose(s) or idea(s) of being.

Also, yes, John does point to Genesis in the 'beginning' of his report to YHWH's expressive purpose of creation. Although I think the stronger argument and direction he wants to take the reader is to highlight his main subject, as did the other Gospel writers: Yahshua, the Son of YHWH.

He wants the reader to know YHWH's primal purpose even over the creation of all material/non-material things, and bringing them into existence, was to eventually create from the seed of man/woman, our Lord and Saviour. Thus John 1:1-2 was written first, that led to John 1:14. YHWH's primal expressive purpose or idea was to create a man, the 2nd and final Adam to restore his relationship with all men through this Son of Man he would also call his Son.

Blessings,

APAK

@Mattathias
Very well said APAK. And excuse me guys, I'm just going to throw this in if it helps at all understanding the literary device that John is using. Consider his poetic convention as antanaclasis. I personally feel that this is an imperative point in understanding what John is trying to convey, which gets entirely distorted when hyper-literalism is applied to his prologue.

 

[DNB]

Faith comes by the Word. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Eph. 2:8, 9

It is a gift from God so stop thinking that one has to qualify to receive the gift. He gives it to sinners. He enables us to seek Him and believe. As we discover who Jesus is and what he did, we begin to believe. 4w
JW's don't believe in the Trinity and are quite adamant about it. They even disconnect themselves from the entire body of Christ (some 2.5 billion believers). They would of course be in error to invalid us as believers. They believe in Jesus. I just think they have major doctrinal flaws. Still I am not their Judge and cannot invalidate their faith. I just don't think God grows their organization. In over 100 years all they have are 8+ million JW's worldwide. That is not being filled with the Holy Spirit, whom they think is a force. In 1900 there were 500 million Christians and now 5x that amount - that's God growing the Church.

Yes, I would agree, of course, that faith alone saves, ...which, of course, also raises many questions? Does one's soteriology or Christology have to be perfect? At this point, I might say no. I may be willing to concede that simply recognizing ourselves as sinners before God, and consequently condemned because of it. And, acknowledging God's mercy in, first of all, offering a means of Redemption, and secondly, a means that is attainable to all, not established by works i.e. faith.

This, I believe may be sufficient, for by acknowledging our sins, we are declaring that God is holy and righteous. And by affirming his offer of salvation, and that the offer is by grace, we are asserting God's mercy. Both principles possibly bring God sufficient glory to justify our exoneration? I may be willing to accept this much.

As far as numbers are concerned, because Catholics/Eastern are the largest populated Christian denomination, and the Muslim numbers are rising, for example, I would not give popularity too much credibility in determining who are under God's auspices. I've always said that 'many are called, but few are chosen'. I believe that this is true on both a world scale (all religions), as on a Christian scale (denominations).

 

[justbyfaith]

and yet not one translation interprets it that way, not one, and at a minimum, not in the majority sense.

That doesn't change the meaning of the Greek word for "and". It is "kai" and can be truly translated as "even".

That Bibles don't translate it that wat in no way changes the fact that this is a meaning of that word in holy scripture.

I suppose that Oneness Pentecostals might come up with their own translation that translates it that way; but I think that we are content to spread the news of that tidbit of information by word of mouth.

1 Samuel 18:1: King David and Jonathan loved each other so much, that they became one.

That is a lie from the pit; that verse does not say that. You are promoting what is an abomination to God.

@justbyfaith


Communication is always a problem, isn't it? I already replied to another person about the very same verses here:

The Trinity definition

When our heart is led by the Holy Spirit, should we not follow? When our old man leads the way in our heart, then it is deceitful and wicked and we would be foolish to follow it. This is why Apostle Paul writes that we Not quench the Spirit!

Funny thing is, when I looked for the 2nd verse in that grouping, I asked the Lord to help me find it, thinking that I was going to have to search through Proverbs for it for a length of time. However, as soon as I prayed, my eyes immediately fell on the verse in question; and I think that there must be a reason for that.

JW's don't believe in the Trinity and are quite adamant about it. They even disconnect themselves from the entire body of Christ (some 2.5 billion believers). They would of course be in error to invalid us as believers. They believe in Jesus. I just think they have major doctrinal flaws. Still I am not their Judge and cannot invalidate their faith.

The word of the Lord is their judge. Jesus said they will die in their sins because they reject the doctrine of His Deity (John 8:24).

it cant be both,

There is nothing that God can't do (Luke 1:37).

 

[APAK]

Faith comes by the Word. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Eph. 2:8, 9

It is a gift from God so stop thinking that one has to qualify to receive the gift. He gives it to sinners. He enables us to seek Him and believe. As we discover who Jesus is and what he did, we begin to believe. 4w
JW's don't believe in the Trinity and are quite adamant about it. They even disconnect themselves from the entire body of Christ (some 2.5 billion believers). They would of course be in error to invalid us as believers. They believe in Jesus. I just think they have major doctrinal flaws. Still I am not their Judge and cannot invalidate their faith. I just don't think God grows their organization. In over 100 years all they have are 8+ million JW's worldwide. That is not being filled with the Holy Spirit, whom they think is a force. In 1900 there were 500 million Christians and now 5x that amount - that's God growing the Church.

It's a gift from God to be given the spirit of our Savior, of truth and peace, by the Spirit of YHWH. This is the prerequisite or required qualification for salvation and I will boldly say also provides the proper interpretation and understanding of scripture.

After 'qualifying,' from that point on, with faithful growth and maturity, 'naturally' stems understanding of scripture as the Spirit prescribes.

Some progress in this study and understanding very fast and some more slowly. However, one common element that is crucial amongst all true believers is they do not desire to add, substitute, delete scripture or introduce foreign doctrines into it that are sourced outside the influence of the Spirit.

They listen to what the Spirit says to them and it may take many times to get the message as they continue to dig into the word. True believers do not accept foreign man-made or traditional thoughts and philosophies of men; into their minds and hearts as they make exegesis of scripture. So yes, there is definitely a qualification or test, not in theology, in acquiring the precious Spirit to understand the word. Without this qualification, scripture is based on carnal and worldly input and the philosophies of men.

Now from here the progression of this discussion turns into a heated discussion or debate on WHO, WHAT people, has the Spirit that directs the correct understanding of truth and spiritual doctrine.

I am personally led as the Spirit dictates in these matters to the truth. It was not always that evident and obvious to me until maybe the last decade or so.

Now pointing to one small sized denomination or sect of religion as not having the right credentials for the truth based on its size, is quite rash and premature IMO. And then to say they are not filled with the Spirit. I believe you have no ground to stand on there.

It is really not about the denomination, it is all about the individual person within that religious denomination, or of not a denomination at all; the latter is me.

Also, your impression or understanding of 'growing the church' by the numbers is alien to me.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[101G]

Grow up, the manuscripts were in majuscules.

so we can take this as you cannot answer the question, nor reprove what we asked. thought so...

Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[APAK]

@Mattathias
Very well said APAK. And excuse me guys, I'm just going to throw this in if it helps at all understanding the literary device that John is using. Consider his poetic convention as antanaclasis. I personally feel that this is an imperative point in understanding what John is trying to convey, which gets entirely distorted when hyper-literalism is applied to his prologue.

John is unique in doing this precise, succinct portability in the use of words and phrases that he repeats to convey more than one meaning. You have brought up a key point here that many, and many scholars, just pass by or omit...excellent

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to ALL,

It (logos) is expressive of God. It is with him.

first mistake of the Day, if it's "of" God then it;s God, for the term "of" translates the genitive case of nouns, with various shades of meaning. Of these the subjective and objective are mentioned. his WORD is HIM, and as for "with" him is him, supportive scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."

now Mattathias, the scripture states that the "First" is WITH the "Last", correct... so is this two separate and distinct person... "the First", and the "Last?" Yes or No.... your answer please, and then we'll get to the next part of your post.

please notice the "First" WITH the "Last" is just what the Word is in John 1:1, the Word was "WITH" God.

now when you answer that then we'll have progress.... so examine Isaiah 41:4 and let us know if that's two separate persons or not.

thanks in advance.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[ChristisGod]

Faith comes by the Word. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Eph. 2:8, 9

It is a gift from God so stop thinking that one has to qualify to receive the gift. He gives it to sinners. He enables us to seek Him and believe. As we discover who Jesus is and what he did, we begin to believe. 4w
JW's don't believe in the Trinity and are quite adamant about it. They even disconnect themselves from the entire body of Christ (some 2.5 billion believers). They would of course be in error to invalid us as believers. They believe in Jesus. I just think they have major doctrinal flaws. Still I am not their Judge and cannot invalidate their faith. I just don't think God grows their organization. In over 100 years all they have are 8+ million JW's worldwide. That is not being filled with the Holy Spirit, whom they think is a force. In 1900 there were 500 million Christians and now 5x that amount - that's God growing the Church.

They deny Jesus is God and teach that He is only a man so they have a false christ, a false gospel and salvation is only found in their organization alone. There is no salvation outside of being a faithful JW and meeting all their manmade criteria. Its a yoke of slavery to a man made system of their own ethics. It is worse than the yoke the Pharisees placed upon people that Jesus cursed/condemned in Matthew 23. Its just as corrupt and deadly as scientology is to its followers. A horrific cult.

I know from personal experience over my lifetime and have known many who have come out of its snare and have shared their stories with me.

My son is dating an ex JW who's Father was an elder for 20 years. One of my best friends father in law was a higher up elder, a Gilead Graduate and Circuit Overseer in the organization.

Here is his testimony below, he is a friend of mine, Don Nelson

hope this helps !!!

 

[justbyfaith]

It's a gift from God to be given the spirit of our Savior, of truth and peace, by the Spirit of YHWH.

YHWH is in fact a Spirit (John 4:23-24) and He is the Spirit that dwelt in Jesus Christ (John 14:7-11).

So then, the Spirit of our Saviour is YHWH.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

They deny Jesus is God and teach that He is only a man so they have a false christ, a false gospel and salvation is only found in their organization alone. There is no salvation outside of being a faithful JW and meeting all their manmade criteria. Its a yoke of slavery to a man made system of their own ethics. It is worse than the yoke the Pharisees placed upon people that Jesus cursed/condemned in Matthew 23. Its just as corrupt and deadly as scientology is to its followers. A horrific cult.

I know from personal experience over my lifetime and have known many who have come out of its snare and have shared their stories with me.

My son is dating an ex JW who's Father was an elder for 20 years. One of my best friends father in law was a higher up elder, a Gilead Graduate and Circuit Overseer in the organization.

Here is his testimony below, he is a friend of mine, Don Nelson

hope this helps !!!

One of the many many problems with "anti cult" stuff is that it tries to lump a bunch of different beliefs all together. LDS Christian beliefs have minimal in common with JW beliefs, so this is extremely frustrating for me personally.

 

[ChristisGod]

One of the many many problems with "anti cult" stuff is that it tries to lump a bunch of different beliefs all together. LDS Christian beliefs have minimal in common with JW beliefs, so this is extremely frustrating for me personally.

And I was in no way comparing mormon beliefs to JW's. I was pointing out from people I personally know who were JW's for many years and what they went through in the WTS organization.

hope this helps !!!

 

[APAK]

YHWH is in fact a Spirit (John 4:23-24) and He is the Spirit that dwelt in Jesus Christ (John 14:7-11).

So then, the Spirit of our Saviour is YHWH.

Your scripture you quoted here is sound and I do understand these verses completely. Although I believe you have overlooked or quickly skipped over a critical thought that makes this scripture suited for a new understanding and theory, not found in scripture.

Here is my understanding, explained by using an analogy, a knowledge that most can understand, who use electric power at home.

First though, let's define the the two key variables addressed in this scripture.

Let the spirit (lower case) be defined as a type of subordinate power, and the Spirit (Upper case) as the source of all power.

So similarly, the voltage, current and frequency of 100 - 230 volts, 10-300A @ 50/60Hz in the US, at your home, arriving via a step-down transformer, is sourced from the power grid.

And we know that we do not have the entire power grid at our home. We just have a portion of it, fed to us!

So likewise, we have ONLY the spirit of Yahshua within us, and the source of it emanates from the Spirit of YHWH. Yahshua is dependent on YHWH for life.

Yes, Yahshua is in YHWH and YHWH is in Yahshua per scripture, as our home power is in/part of the source power and in turn the source power is connected to that portion of power in our home. This is quite obvious. We are dependent on the power grid to serve our needs of electricity at home.

YHWH alone then, provides the spirit of Christ to us, into our 'home' into our heart.

Similarly, YHWH also provided the spirit of Elijah, as another type of power, different from Christ, to John the Baptist.

YHWH is the source, and the Father of all spirits per scripture, and can give any spirit he wished to any creature...


Bless you,

APAK

 

[Mattathias]

now Mattathias, the scripture states that the "First" is WITH the "Last", correct... so is this two separate and distinct person... "the First", and the "Last?" Yes or No.... your answer please, and then we'll get to the next part of your post.

No.

please notice the "First" WITH the "Last" is just what the Word is in John 1:1, the Word was "WITH" God.

now when you answer that then we'll have progress.... so examine Isaiah 41:4 and let us know if that's two separate persons or not.

thanks in advance.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

The speaker in Isaiah 41:4 is one person, not two separate persons.

”1. The one God. (a) theos is the most frequent designation of God in the NT. Belief in the one, only and unique God (Matt. 23:9; Rom. 3:30; 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Gal. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19) is an established part of Christian tradition. Jesus himself made the fundamental confession of Jud. his own and expressly quoted the Shema (Deut. 6:4-5; see Mk. 12:29-30; cf. Matt. 22:37; Lk. 10:27). This guaranteed continuity between the old and the new covenants. The God whom Christians worship is the God of the fathers (Acts 3:13; 5:30; 22:14), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13; 7:32; cf. Matt. 22:32; Mk. 12:26; Lk. 20:37), the God of Israel (Matt. 15:31; Lk. 1:68; Acts 13:17), and the God of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1Pet. 1:3).”


(New International Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged Edition, p. 244)

 

[Jane_Doe22]

And I was in no way comparing mormon beliefs to JW's. I was pointing out from people I personally know who were JW's for many years and what they went through in the WTS organization.

hope this helps !!!

Oh course. You're actually pretty reasonable.
I was sharing one of my frustrations with generic "anti cult" stuff that usually lumps JW and "Mormons" together when they're not remotely similar belief systems or social structures.