The Trinity definition

[farouk]

The witness of Scripture to the Deity of Christ is so strong, that on reading Scripture it is hard to deny it, except with dishonesty.

Matthew 3.17; John 1.14; John 3.16; John 8.24; Romans 9.5; Colossians 1.19; Colossians 2.9; 1 Timothy 3.16; Hebrews 1.8; Revelation 1.8; Revelation 22.13..........(to name but a few passages).

 

[jaybird]

The witness of Scripture to the Deity of Christ is so strong, that on reading Scripture it is hard to deny it, except with dishonesty.

Matthew 3.17; John 1.14; John 3.16; John 8.24; Romans 9.5; Colossians 1.19; Colossians 2.9; 1 Timothy 3.16; Hebrews 1.8; Revelation 1.8; Revelation 22.13..........(to name but a few passages).

i dont know, lets look at the first passage MT 3 17

and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

beloved Son means Most High? the Most High is introducing His Son who is the Most High, Himself? im sorry but that does not make any sense at all. without the doctrine of the trinity already established there is no way anyone reads this passage and thinks that the two, Father and Son, are in fact not two but two in one co eternal beings.

the two co eternal beings would not start until almost 400 years later. before that there was no discussion on it. no early church father believed this either.

 

[ChristisGod]

No, if you believe in the trinity you are a Roman Catholic daughter.

no you are with Jesus and the Apostles teaching for they taught the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is God.

hope this helps !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

i dont know, lets look at the first passage MT 3 17

and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

beloved Son means Most High? the Most High is introducing His Son who is the Most High, Himself? im sorry but that does not make any sense at all. without the doctrine of the trinity already established there is no way anyone reads this passage and thinks that the two, Father and Son, are in fact not two but two in one co eternal beings.

the two co eternal beings would not start until almost 400 years later. before that there was no discussion on it. no early church father believed this either.

untrue read Peters inspired words below. the other Apostles and Jesus call the Son and Holy Spirit God as well.

In Acts Peter says they lied to the Holy Spirit who is God.

Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

Peter calls Jesus God

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Peter call the Father God

1 Peter 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

hope this helps !!!

 

[APAK]

The witness of Scripture to the Deity of Christ is so strong, that on reading Scripture it is hard to deny it, except with dishonesty.

Matthew 3.17; John 1.14; John 3.16; John 8.24; Romans 9.5; Colossians 1.19; Colossians 2.9; 1 Timothy 3.16; Hebrews 1.8; Revelation 1.8; Revelation 22.13..........(to name but a few passages).

And you cannot really explain any of this scripture to support your claim..? I would think you would mesh them altogether and harmonize them to show a triad suddenly materialize from them all. Who is the dishonest one here, pray tell?

 

[ChristisGod]

And you cannot really explain any of this scripture to support your claim..? I would think you would mesh them altogether and harmonize them to show a triad suddenly materialize from them all. Who is the dishonest one here, pray tell?

These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the NT but always to Jesus.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty

Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:

We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that lives, was dead but is alive forevermore is Christ.

Revelation 2:8
"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

The immediate text clearly tells us that it was Jesus who was pierced and who is Coming in the clouds. This person coming in the clouds is God(Jesus-the Son of Man),

Daniel 7:13-14
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Matthew 24:30-31
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!

Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

The above is sound biblical irrefutable exegesis. As you say it all meshes PERFECTLY.

hope this helps !!!

 

[APAK]

untrue read Peters inspired words below. the other Apostles and Jesus call the Son and Holy Spirit God as well.

In Acts Peter says they lied to the Holy Spirit who is God.

Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

Peter calls Jesus God

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Peter call the Father God

1 Peter 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

hope this helps !!!

Calling the Holy Spirit Christ is ridiculous, and over the top. A pretty vivid imagination. It tells you who the Spirit really is at the end of the passage you quoted from Acts...it says God....the Spirit = YHWH, the most High, the Father of Christ. This relationship never changes, then and today. There is a structure laid out throughout the Bible. YHWH uses special anointed human beings to do his work and be his emissary. The two most outstanding ones are from the OT, David, and then Yahshua, his descendant, of the NT. This is a major thread of understanding in the Bible......and you cannot grasp it...a pity

 

[Truther]

"No, if you believe in the trinity you are a Roman Catholic daughter."

Hardly works for the Orthodox. Go tell some Metropolitan he is a Roman Catholic daughter. Orthodox go back just as far as Catholic.

If you espouse the RCC doctrine of the trinity, you are RCC.

You are defined by your beliefs, not a church name.

 

[Truther]

no you are with Jesus and the Apostles teaching for they taught the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is God.

hope this helps !!!

No, they did not teach God is 3 persons...that was the RCC centuries later.

They taught there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the MAN Christ Jesus.(1 divine person and 1 human person).

 

[FollowHim]

@marks

This is from Christianity.com

All Christians believe the doctrine of the Trinity. If you do not believe this—that is, if you have come to a settled conclusion that the doctrine of the Trinity is not true—you are not a Christian at all. You are in fact a heretic. Those words may sound harsh, but they represent the judgment of the Christian church across the centuries. What is the Trinity? Christians in every land unite in proclaiming that our God eternally exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Those who deny that truth place themselves outside the pale of Christian orthodoxy.

We believe in one living and true God who is the Creator of heaven and earth; who is eternal, almighty, unchangeable, infinitely powerful, wise, just and holy.

We believe that the one God eternally exists in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and that these three are one God, co-equal and co-eternal, having precisely the same nature and attributes, and worthy of precisely the same worship, confidence, and obedience. Matthew 3:16, 17; Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3, 4; II Corinthians 13:14.

This doctrine unites all true Christians and separates us from those who are not Christian. You may believe and still not be a Christian, but if you deny this doctrine in your heart, you are not a Christian at all.

Do you agree with the above ?

Why or why not ?

hope this helps !!!

I always find it an interesting question, if Jesus was not God, who was He?
Jesus was so unique and unusual, the apostles who were closest to Him, did not fully see Him over the 3 years of following.
Jesus knew so much about the need for the Holy Spirit, the relationship context of a connection with the apostles and the anointing that must come to birth the church. This is not knowledge or insight of human levels, it comes only from God and by being Him.

I am staggard at how Moses from the end of the bronze age starting the iron age, wrote such intricate legal frameworks and relationship understanding that still works today. Without Moses, Jesus could not stand as He did. On the mount of transfiguration, Jesus talks with Moses and Elijah about the coming time. It is quite matter of fact. This gap between the apostles and Jesus is so vast, it is not grounded on biblical knowledge or what the pharisees knew, or just words worked out by men. In the gospels a few short books, almost just letters is like dynamite, that speaks through our whole lives. Jesus and the fig tree stands out. God expects fruit when he comes, even when we say that is not fair, or reasonable, this is Gods standard. Jesus is talking about Israel and the fruit of good works of His people.

But even today few believers know this tough heart God brings. There is no favouritism with Him. Peter almost lost it, with his denial. No favouritism. Words often get discounted so easily. Someone posted on a thread that Jesus's transaction with the Father was this distant thing that brought everyone forgiveness. To me this distant idea sums up why many say Jesus is not God. They do not know how far we are fallen and how deeply God bent down to save us. Only God has this kind of love and patience. No man I know comes close to Jesus and His ways.
Jesus is God, to me, no doubt.

God bless you

 

[Mattathias]

...because it is unteachable, Mattathias. It invariably raises more questions than it can possibly answer, leaving its proponents as nothing more than a bunch of bewildered lemmings following man's explanation, rather than humbly trying to discern the mystery of the suffering Messiah - the pre-eminent creature that God loved so much, that he handed over to him the keys of the universe.

It’s taught, but seldom at church. As a non-trinitarian, shouldn’t you want it taught? Doesn’t a teaching which “invariably raises more questions than it can possibly answer” present you with a golden opportunity to present an easily understood alternative for people to consider?

 

[ChristisGod]

Calling the Holy Spirit Christ is ridiculous, and over the top. A pretty vivid imagination. It tells you who the Spirit really is at the end of the passage you quoted from Acts...it says God....the Spirit = YHWH, the most High, the Father of Christ. This relationship never changes, then and today. There is a structure laid out throughout the Bible. YHWH uses special anointed human beings to do his work and be his emissary. The two most outstanding ones are from the OT, David, and then Yahshua, his descendant, of the NT. This is a major thread of understanding in the Bible......and you cannot grasp it...a pity

Try reading the POST and the SCRIPTURES with understanding instead of you BIAS.

Peter in Acts 5 identifies the Holy Spirit as God
Peter in 2 Pet identifies Jesus as his God and Savior
Peter in 1 Pet identifies the Father as his God

I believe Peter and you deny his words its that simple. Your method is EISEGESIS- reading your own theology into the text rather than EXEGESIS letting your theology come from the text.

hope this helps !!

 

[Truther]

Jesus was a redo of the 1st Adam, AKA the last Adam.

 

[ChristisGod]

I always find it an interesting question, if Jesus was not God, who was He?
Jesus was so unique and unusual, the apostles who were closest to Him, did not fully see Him over the 3 years of following.
Jesus knew so much about the need for the Holy Spirit, the relationship context of a connection with the apostles and the anointing that must come to birth the church. This is not knowledge or insight of human levels, it comes only from God and by being Him.

I am staggard at how Moses from the end of the bronze age starting the iron age, wrote such intricate legal frameworks and relationship understanding that still works today. Without Moses, Jesus could not stand as He did. On the mount of transfiguration, Jesus talks with Moses and Elijah about the coming time. It is quite matter of fact. This gap between the apostles and Jesus is so vast, it is not grounded on biblical knowledge or what the pharisees knew, or just words worked out by men. In the gospels a few short books, almost just letters is like dynamite, that speaks through our whole lives. Jesus and the fig tree stands out. God expects fruit when he comes, even when we say that is not fair, or reasonable, this is Gods standard. Jesus is talking about Israel and the fruit of good works of His people.

But even today few believers know this tough heart God brings. There is no favouritism with Him. Peter almost lost it, with his denial. No favouritism. Words often get discounted so easily. Someone posted on a thread that Jesus's transaction with the Father was this distant thing that brought everyone forgiveness. To me this distant idea sums up why many say Jesus is not God. They do not know how far we are fallen and how deeply God bent down to save us. Only God has this kind of love and patience. No man I know comes close to Jesus and His ways.
Jesus is God, to me, no doubt.

God bless you

Amen !

 

[ChristisGod]

Jesus was a redo of the 1st Adam, AKA the last Adam.

who scripture identifies as God in the flesh, God incarnate as per Matthew 1:23, John 1:1-14 , John 10:33, John 14:9, John 20:28, 1 Timothy 3:16, Colossians 1:19, Colossians 2:9, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6

And I have numerous other Scriptures that call the Son- God/YHWH. At-least another 20 plus.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Mattathias]

what does equal with the Father mean?

At the very least it means having the same authority as the Father.

I would ask, did Jesus make himself equal with the Father (the accusation) or did the Father make Jesus equal with him?

 

[APAK]

Try reading the POST and the SCRIPTURES with understanding instead of you BIAS.

Peter in Acts 5 identifies the Holy Spirit as God
Peter in 2 Pet identifies Jesus as his God and Savior
Peter in 1 Pet identifies the Father as his God

I believe Peter and you deny his words its that simple. Your method is EISEGESIS- reading your own theology into the text rather than EXEGESIS letting your theology come from the text.

hope this helps !!

Wow man what tension prevails here and what is its cause....?

...so what is your beef now..I already said I agreed that the Spirit is YHWH as in Acts 5. I also agree with 1 Peter saying YHWH = Father

now SHOW ME in 2 Peter where it says Jesus is God (YHWH) AND SAVIOR...and explain it to me please...this one will be impossible but go and give it a shot anyway..

APAK

 

[ChristisGod]

Wow man what tension prevails here and what is its cause....?

...so what is your beef now..I already said I agreed that the Spirit is YHWH as in Acts 5. I also agree with 1 Peter saying YHWH = Father

now SHOW ME in 2 Peter where it says Jesus is God (YHWH) AND SAVIOR...and explain it to me please...this one will be impossible but go and give it a shot anyway..

APAK

2 Peter 1:1
τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:11
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:1
our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:11
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

We have a second person possessive pronoun "Our" modifying two different improper nouns (God and Savior) joined by "and" (Kia) to identify a proper noun (Jesus). Therefore, by basic grammar, we are identifying Jesus as God and Savior. We don't even have to know the Greek to see that Jesus is being called both God and Savior/ Lord and Savior in Peters 2nd Epistle.

But for those interested in the Greek here is the comparison of 1:1 and 1:11.

τοῦ is the same.
ἡμῶν is the same.
καὶ is the same.
Σωτῆρος is the same.
Ἰησοῦ is the same.
Χριστοῦ· is the same.

And all in the same order.

The only difference is the noun "Θεοῦ" in v.1, while "Κυρίου" is in v.11.

So if a person wants to deny that Jesus is "God" ("theou") in v.1, then he has to deny that Jesus is "Lord" ("kuriou") in v.11. Otherwise a person is being inconsistent and dishonest with the text. To say otherwise is proof positive one has an agenda when reading scripture and using eisegesis rather than exegesis of the biblical text in question.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Mattathias]

Jhn 5:18

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

God is our Father.

When an individual Jew or Christian says “God is my Father” the Jew or the Christian is not making himself equal with God, is he?

 

[justbyfaith]

beloved Son means Most High?

Yes, see Isaiah 9:6. There the son that was given is called the everlasting Father; and in order to deny this you have to change the intended meaning of scripture not once, but twice.

Calling the Holy Spirit Christ is ridiculous, and over the top.

Again, see Isaiah 9:6. Christ is given the name of "Wonderful Counsellor."

It tells you who the Spirit really is at the end of the passage you quoted from Acts...it says God....the Spirit = YHWH, the most High, the Father of Christ.

Now take a wild look at Ephesians 4:4 and Romans 8:9.