The Trinity in the OT

[Stan]

Then I suggest you talk to admin about this problem. To separate portions you just need the first opening QUOTE tag with all the info between the [ ] brackets, in front and a /QUOTE tag between the [ ] brackets, at the end of each of my quotes. This will make sure it is properly linked to my actual post. I never have any problems doing that here so I think it may be something your are doing incorrectly. After it is properly done the admin or yourself, can delete the messed up posts.

 

[jerzy]

Then I suggest you talk to admin about this problem. To separate portions you just need the first opening QUOTE tag with all the info between the [ ] brackets, in front and a /QUOTE tag between the [ ] brackets, at the end of each of my quotes. This will make sure it is properly linked to my actual post. I never have any problems doing that here so I think it may be something your are doing incorrectly. After it is properly done the admin or yourself, can delete the messed up posts.

It tells me that I exceeded the number of tags (have no idea what the limit is).

I try to break a long post into parts. It is OK for the first part but it drops the quoted form after I add on "edit".

Anyway, could you reply to it?

I bolded the parts when I quoted you.

 

[us2are1]

Babel around the bush?
Nice way to go completely off track. Now the HOLY SPIRIT saves us? Not Jesus? Talk about babbling.
Obviously you are an untamed ornathoid which I will not longer pursue.

You can't obtain the Holy Spirit without Christ. But you knew that before you continued your accusing babel around the bush.

The Scriptures plainly State that "The Lord is One and His name One". There is not one scripture that says that The Lord is three in one. Not a single scripture anywhere.

20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!

9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be-- "The Lord is one," And His name one.

29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

God is Spirit that means that god and the Holy Spirit are one and the same.

9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Christ and the Father are one and the same.

16 ----------God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

God and Christ are one and the same.

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;

They are all one and the same. One Spirit and one Body.

 

[Eltanin]

I don't really see this as a hard concept... I believe God is One... I believe He has manifested Himself in different ways...

This isn't exactly the most perfect example of how I can understand it but it might help bring an understanding full circle between those who believe in the Trinity and those who disbelieve...

I will use myself as the example...

I am one person... But I have different parts to play, in which certain qualities must manifest above others...
I am me... a total concept... one

But I am a mother... to my children...
I am a daughter to my parents...
I am a wife, and a support to my husband...

But in the end, I am still one... me...

I think that is kind of an over-simplified version, but it demonstrates the simplicity of the idea of the Trinity.

We can find that idea present in the OT, and even more so in the NT, but it is never truly outlined in such words as a solid doctrine in the Bible.

 

[Stan]

It tells me that I exceeded the number of tags (have no idea what the limit is).

I try to break a long post into parts. It is OK for the first part but it drops the quoted form after I add on "edit".

Anyway, could you reply to it?

I bolded the parts when I quoted you.

I am on four forum sites but I believe this one keeps automatic track of those things. You may want to use the more options button to fix your problem, but you should still contact admin. I have had times when it would not let me post because of an uneven amount of tags and I use the more robust editor to see that somehow more tags have been added. If you type something and it doesn't appear then your should use the more options button or preview your post first to see what it has done before you post it. I could answer but I think the admin would probably not like me doing that as it goes against their setup and how they have designed this site. I'm in no hurry, so take your time and try and get it fixed.

 

[us2are1]

I don't really see this as a hard concept... I believe God is One... I believe He has manifested Himself in different ways...

This isn't exactly the most perfect example of how I can understand it but it might help bring an understanding full circle between those who believe in the Trinity and those who disbelieve...

I will use myself as the example...

I am one person... But I have different parts to play, in which certain qualities must manifest above others...
I am me... a total concept... one

But I am a mother... to my children...
I am a daughter to my parents...
I am a wife, and a support to my husband...

But in the end, I am still one... me...

I think that is kind of an over-simplified version, but it demonstrates the simplicity of the idea of the Trinity.

We can find that idea present in the OT, and even more so in the NT, but it is never truly outlined in such words as a solid doctrine in the Bible.

Show one place where the father was manifested in scripture other than Christ.

Then show where the Holy Spirit differs from God who is Spirit.






.

 

[Stan]

I don't really see this as a hard concept... I believe God is One... I believe He has manifested Himself in different ways...

This isn't exactly the most perfect example of how I can understand it but it might help bring an understanding full circle between those who believe in the Trinity and those who disbelieve...

I will use myself as the example...

I am one person... But I have different parts to play, in which certain qualities must manifest above others...
I am me... a total concept... one

But I am a mother... to my children...
I am a daughter to my parents...
I am a wife, and a support to my husband...

But in the end, I am still one... me...

I think that is kind of an over-simplified version, but it demonstrates the simplicity of the idea of the Trinity.

We can find that idea present in the OT, and even more so in the NT, but it is never truly outlined in such words as a solid doctrine in the Bible.

Amen! Also a box is 3-in-1. It has Length x Width x Height, you can't have a box without those three dimensions, and you can't have God without His three dimensions, which are clearly depicted in His Word.

Show one place where the father was manifested in scripture other than Christ.

Every time it talks about the Holy Spirit, it is a manifestation of God. Prophecy is a manifestation of God. You don't believe the Holy Spirit is GOD? What about all the manifestations in the OT?

 

[us2are1]

John 4
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

If according to Christ God the Father is Spirit. Then you have lost one of your trinity.

If according to Christ He is the Father . Then you have lost another member of your trinity.

If you will not listen to the scripture from where you claim to have gotten your faith then you will die in the sin of believing the lies of the devil and perish for eternity. Therefore repent and believe the gospel of Christ.

9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father;

 

[Eltanin]

Show one place where the father was manifested in scripture other than Christ.

Then show where the Holy Spirit differs from God who is Spirit.

I am trying to show that Christ is the Father, and the Spirit, and Jesus are One, but that sometimes the relationship of God to us requires that he manifests differently to us.

Yet even so, Jesus addresses God the Father in prayer, and the Holy Spirit appears in the form of a dove at Jesus' baptism...

 

[us2are1]

I am trying to show that Christ is the Father, and the Spirit, and Jesus are One, but that sometimes the relationship of God to us requires that he manifests differently to us.

Yet even so, Jesus addresses God the Father in prayer, and the Holy Spirit appears in the form of a dove at Jesus' baptism...

That changes nothing. The Spirit of God is everywhere. He inhabits His creation. He was in heaven, in the dove and in Christ all at the same time. He is God and He is the Holy Spirit. There is one Spirit and one body.

 

[Stan]

I fail to see how people can believe that Jesus is God and the Father is God but the Holy Spirit is NOT? If Jesus is God as he said he is, and while saying it the Father was in heaven as He prayed to him and Jesus said the Father was going to send ANOTHER advocate as Jesus is, then why isn't the other ADVOCATE, the Holy Spirit, not God? It makes no sense to say Jesus and the Father are both God but that the Holy Spirit isn't. It seems no one has a problem accepting GOD as a duality, but just not as a trinity.
We do have our biases us humans.

 

[Eltanin]

That changes nothing. The Spirit of God is everywhere. He inhabits His creation. He was in heaven, in the dove and in Christ all at the same time. He is God and He is the Holy Spirit. There is one Spirit and one body.

Yes. There is one spirit and one body...

Just like there is one me. But at times my roll is to be a mother, and at other times it is to be a daughter, and at times, my roll is to be support...

Jesus is Son, He is the Father, He is the Spirit... He is One
Sometimes, we look to God as a child looks towards their father.
Sometimes we see God as someone who has shared our experience, because we need to know He relates to us... We see him as the Son of God, as we ourselves are God's children...
Sometimes we need guidance in the form of the Spirit...

The three ideas are just three ways we see our One God... It doesn't separate Who He Is, it allows us the understanding that God is so great, He can be all of these different things for us and still be One.

 

[us2are1]

Yes. There is one spirit and one body...

Just like there is one me. But at times my roll is to be a mother, and at other times it is to be a daughter, and at times, my roll is to be support...

Jesus is Son, He is the Father, He is the Spirit... He is One
Sometimes, we look to God as a child looks towards their father.
Sometimes we see God as someone who has shared our experience, because we need to know He relates to us... We see him as the Son of God, as we ourselves are God's children...
Sometimes we need guidance in the form of the Spirit...

The three ideas are just three ways we see our One God... It doesn't separate Who He Is, it allows us the understanding that God is so great, He can be all of these different things for us and still be One.

I understand. the problem still remains that the trinity doctrine states in three persons but there is not three since god and the holy Spirit are the same. The father was never manifested as a father outside of the son. the three persons jargan does not fit scripture making the man made doctrine of trinity a lie.

 

[Eltanin]

I understand. the problem still remains that the trinity doctrine states in three persons but there is not three since god and the holy Spirit are the same. The father was never manifested as a father outside of the son. the three persons jargan does not fit scripture making the man made doctrine of trinity a lie.

I see what you are saying now... Here is were the camps split into two... Those who take all things literally literal, and those who believe in symbolism...

I think the literally literal camp of people like to look at the three ways that God has manifested Himself physically to us after the Fall...
Such as the Pillar of Fire, Father figure leading the Israelites from Egypt...
and then God the Son, petitioning His Father to remove His cup from Him...
and then the Holy Spirit sent in the form of a dove, and then tongues of fire to be a comfort and a guide to us...

Yet all of these physical manifestations were separate, but they were of the same God in all three instances...

A bit of interesting information though... the earliest known reference to the Trinity was stated by Theophilus of Antioch, but he was not referring to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... He referred to God, His Word, and Wisdom...and if I remember correctly, the idea of the Trinity as we understand it today is credited to Tertullian, one of the originators of the idea of The Devil Satan being God's arch-nemesis.

 

[jerzy]

They are all one and the same. One Spirit and one Body.

Show it written.

I will use myself as the example...

I prefer God's word which is truth.


I am on another forum using simillar programm but it doesn't give me such problem.

Amen! Also a box is 3-in-1. It has Length x Width x Height, you can't have a box without those three dimensions, and you can't have God without His three dimensions, which are clearly depicted in His Word.

Are we playing childish games here?

Every time it talks about the Holy Spirit, it is a manifestation of God. Prophecy is a manifestation of God. You don't believe the Holy Spirit is GOD? What about all the manifestations in the OT?

Alway Spirit of God not God the Spirit.

I am trying to show that Christ is the Father, and the Spirit, and Jesus are One, but that sometimes the relationship of God to us requires that he manifests differently to us.

It is never written this way.

Yet even so, Jesus addresses God the Father in prayer, and the Holy Spirit appears in the form of a dove at Jesus' baptism...

This is written.

That changes nothing. The Spirit of God is everywhere. He inhabits His creation. He was in heaven, in the dove and in Christ all at the same time. He is God and He is the Holy Spirit. There is one Spirit and one body.

Wishfull thinking but not Biblical.

Show it written.



I prefer God's word which is truth.



Thanks for your help, Stan.

I am on another forum using simillar programm but it doesn't give me such problem.



Are we playing childish games here?



Alway Spirit of God not God the Spirit.



It is never written this way.



This is written.



Wishfull but not Biblical thinking.

If Jesus is God as he said he is...

Do you mean here?

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

[Eltanin]

I don't see where I have a problem...
It is a concept, and I have given an example to explain it...

This is also a matter of personal revelation... Understanding is not given to us all at the same time... None of us are in the same situations, and so we are not all going to have been dealt with in the same ways, thus some people will have deeper understandings of some issues, while others may not have needed a deep rooting in those understandings yet.

I think I know where you are trying to lead jerzy, but you don't give explanation, you only offer rebuke, and then you offer up a Scripture... It has already been demonstrated time and again in this forum, that people interpret the Scripture differently... So where you might feel you are offering proof for your rebuke, other will feel you are offering proof that you are wrong...

People are not just going to look at one verse you throw up and say, "Oh my Gosh..." and have a light bulb moment... They are going to either believe you are taking scripture out of context and ignore that you posted one, or they are going to go and find what context it is written in...

You need to explain why you feel the Trinity is a false doctrine, in you own words, and then offer scriptural back-up, probably best if it were in the form of chapters though. LOL

Seriously, when is the last time you blatantly came out and told some one they were wrong, and they immediately listened... If someone believes they are right, they think you are wrong... As soon as you bluntly say "Your wrong"... you mute yourself to the people you are trying to correct...

 

[jerzy]

I don't see where I have a problem...
It is a concept, and I have given an example to explain it...

You explained your concept.

Thanks.

I believe that God's word is truth.

This is also a matter of personal revelation...

Did God or man "revealed this concept" to you?

Understanding is not given to us all at the same time... None of us are in the same situations, and so we are not all going to have been dealt with in the same ways, thus some people will have deeper understandings of some issues, while others may not have needed a deep rooting in those understandings yet.

Bear in mind that I was a Catholic probably before you were born.

I think I know where you are trying to lead jerzy, but you don't give explanation, you only offer rebuke, and then you offer up a Scripture... It has already been demonstrated time and again in this forum, that people interpret the Scripture differently... So where you might feel you are offering proof for your rebuke, other will feel you are offering proof that you are wrong...

Yet you neither offered a single proof text no advised what I have to do with hundreds of proof texts clearly making your concept false to say the least.

People are not just going to look at one verse you throw up and say, "Oh my Gosh..." and have a light bulb moment... They are going to either believe you are taking scripture out of context and ignore that you posted one, or they are going to go and find what context it is written in...

You mean few one hundreds while having none.

It is very dishonest and you know it, don't you my friend?

You need to explain why you feel the Trinity is a false doctrine...

I need do nothing.

God did it once for all.

Seriously, when is the last time you blatantly came out and told some one they were wrong, and they immediately listened... If someone believes they are right, they think you are wrong... As soon as you bluntly say "Your wrong"... you mute yourself to the people you are trying to correct...

I have been asking for a proof text.

You keep offering a concept.

Hmmmm!!!!

 

[Eltanin]

I wouldn't be able to bear in mind your age when I don't know what age you are... and I didn't know that you were Catholic either, but that doesn't make a difference to me...

You are asking for text that support the Trinity, and I said immediately that the word Trinity is not in the Bible... I also gave the names of men who first outlined the Trinity as a concept that became doctrine...

The Trinity is an interpretation of men's understanding of the Scripture... It can be revealed to some people as a way of understanding how God works. I myself do not believe it is a doctrine that makes or breaks a Christian. The fact that there are two variations of the Trinity that have later become melded into one doctrine gives me pause, but I also understand that understanding and revelation has to start somewhere...Some people have received counsel from the Holy Spirit that I have not yet needed, and it is not for me to say that I KNOW one way or the other when the Spirit has not dealt with me on it...

I do believe that there is a Trinity, I know others have a different understanding, and I will respect that, because maybe someday I will have to come to a similar conviction... Otherwise, if it is a wrong doctrine, then the Spirit is truly capable of dealing with it better than I .

I do believe that the Father was in Jesus, and Jesus was in the Father as John 14 explains... And if Jesus were less than God, I don't see where he would have the power to send the Holy Spirit... as he promises in John 14... To me John 14 both confirms that Jesus is separate from the Father, and the Spirit, but yet confirms He is not.... In seeing this, and knowing how God appeared in the OT to Israel... Knowing that God does not change... To some people, it is easy to say that Jesus was always with God, and so was the Spirit... Some people want it spelled out letter for letter.... But to some people it is...

If it is a hard concept for you... Then believe how the Spirit would lead you.. It is good to question what others believe, but if you go into the conversation just to tell people they are wrong, you waste your time and everyone else's... And when they give proof, if it is not good enough for you, it doesn't mean it is not proof to them. You must show how it is not proof.

 

[jerzy]

You are asking for text that support the Trinity, and I said immediately that the word Trinity is not in the Bible... I also gave the names of men who first outlined the Trinity as a concept that became doctrine...

Thanks.

The word is not in the Bible but you gave the names of men who first outlined the Trinity as a concept that became doctrine.

You forgot that the two theism formulated in 325 was declared unbiblical in 357 but had to be made "politically correct" in 381 when the third God had to be added.

The Trinitarians have been sweating for centuries & murdering those who keep pointing to God's word and to the fact that the "concept" is radically false.

Any body claiming revelation of the Holy Spirit contradicting what God said once for all in His word, His truth is shocking.

What you believe doesn't change God's word. Claiming that you received from God a contrary revelation is, well you read Gal 1:-9, Ro 1:18 and so on.

John 1 proves the Trinitarian fallacy. The word logos never denotes Jesus. Substituting Jesus to Jn 1:1 makes mockery of "In the beginning..." of Gen 1:1-2 to which John referred.

The Father did His works through Jesus the same way as He did in the past through Moses and few of the prophets.

Besides, why "God" Jesus needed power? Why you call Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit a God?

If it is a hard concept for you...

It is a Trinitarian fabrication whereby they made themselves two more Gods and are trying to cover up the three theism in the smoke screen of a Trinity God, another ridiculous "concept".

Let me say it again:

Scriptures is consistent from page 1 to the end that the Father is the only one true God and the eternal life is for them who know this. There are hundreds of proof texts against none in support of the Trinitarian "concept".

2Sam 7:12, Isa 11:1-3, Isa 53:3+6+11, Eze 34:24-25, Mt 10:20, Ac 2:30, Ac 13:23, 2Cor 5:18+21 and Col 1:12-13 are few of many texts which the Trinitarians will never be able to "modify" to make them fit their "concept"

Good luck at the judgement seat.

 

[Eltanin]

I don't believe in two more gods... I believe that God has manifested Himself physically for the multitudes 3 times... three aspects we have been shown in the Bible. I didn't give the verses, but I am pretty sure everyone here knows the Scripture pretty well to find them... And in those manifestations, He is still God...

...Such as I know there is more aspects to me than what you see... and there are more aspects to you than what I see in this forum.

To blame Trinitarians for death of those who don't believe likewise is kind of narrow... There has been infighting everywhere from all sides since the day it was agreed on by some that there can only be one right interpretation of the Bible... Which, even what you read and believe is an interpretation... And you would believe that I am going to need luck at Judgment because I don't agree with you?

There are hundreds of Scriptures that people can use to support their belief in the Trinity... Just as there are hundreds of Scriptures you can use to justify why they are wrong... To claim that you know how God chooses to impart understanding of Himself to other people is to say you know all God's thoughts, and no man knows all of His thoughts... 1 Corinthians 2...

Everything that we understand as Truth today is doctrine... Some person had to interpret that Doctrine from the Scriptures and then other people had to draw same or similar conclusions to make it popular enough to become doctrine... It is still just the interpretation of man...

... And you are a man (I assume, sorry if I am wrong) with an interpretation that differs from so many other people's interpretations... Pointing at Scriptures among people who already have an understanding of them is not proof... You must try and reveal WHY you interpret the Scripture the way you do... To say because it says so is not sufficient... Because other people see the same words and draw different conclusions as to what they mean...

To say that "This is how it is" doesn't work... Because you are no better or worse than anyone else, and how you see it is still your personal interpretation...