The Trinity in the OT

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Trekson

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Sounds to me like someone has a serious case of denial, a lack of understanding who God is and how He relates to us.

Acts 1:4-5 - "And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; [sup]5 [/sup]for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Jesus is speaking = God #1, wait for the promise of the Father = God #2, shall be baptized with Holy Spirit = God #3, ding, ding, ding, we have a winner, three aspects of the one triune God.

Yes the bible says God is spirit, it does NOT say He is the Holy Spirit in this spot as a way of eliminating the HS from the trinity. All this verse is implying is that the whole Godhead resides in the spiritual rather than the physical plain of existence that we dwell in. You might do well to dwell on this verse: Matt. 11:25 - "At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes."

Sometimes we let our intellect get in the way of simple faith. We get lost in the why's, how's and the who's instead of just accepting by faith that things as revealed in scripture are just the way they are implied. It is not for us to know and understand everything, we just accept His word by faith.
 

jerzy

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I don't believe in two more gods...

You only say that there are three Gods.

Hmmmm!!!

The story of "3 times" is a very poor modification of God's word.

It is not important what concepts we fancy. Instead we should say "it is written so and so".

It is a common knowledge that Trinitarians created the biggest world massacres like the WW 2 and butchered million upon millions of their own brothers.

Jesus said "by their fruits you shall know them".

The Bible is not to be "interpreted" but spoken from it word by word.

It was Paul not I who spoke in Gal 1:8-9.

The Trinitarians have not a single proof text in support of the three theism screen smoked with the Trinity God concept. They just trample upon hundreds of proof texts stating cardinally against their concept.

God can not "impart" people with contradicting understanding or with understanding contradicting what He calls the truth.

I don't interpret the scriptures.

I quote from it.

Your argument of interpretation is an argument against you.

It is not I but God said that you should say "it is written so and so" instead of offering your contrary concepts.
 

Stan

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Are we playing childish games here?


Games are in the eye of the beholder Jerzy.



Do you mean here?
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

No that is not one of the verses I was referring to. John 14:9 would be one and just after the verse you quote here is verse 5 which explains that Jesus was part of God's glory before the world began.
 

jerzy

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Acts 1:4-5 - "And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; [sup]5 [/sup]for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Jesus is speaking = God #1, wait for the promise of the Father = God #2, shall be baptized with Holy Spirit = God #3, ding, ding, ding, we have a winner, three aspects of the one triune God.
I would understand this if I was a little child in a Bible school.

The word “spirit” means “wind”. It was used when people couldn’t ascertain how things were done. Jesus makes it clear in Jn 3:8 provided we read the word “wind” in both cases.
The Spirit of God/the Holy Spirit is never denoted as God the spirit/the Holy Spirit.

Jesus says it in Mt 11:25 & 2Th 2:11 that God hides/blinds people that they believe a lie. Thus they have concepts of what He says instead of speaking as He says.

We must accept His word not man’s concepts about His word.
 

Stan

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You only say that there are three Gods.

Hmmmm!!!

The story of "3 times" is a very poor modification of God's word.

It is not important what concepts we fancy. Instead we should say "it is written so and so".

It is a common knowledge that Trinitarians created the biggest world massacres like the WW 2 and butchered million upon millions of their own brothers.

Jesus said "by their fruits you shall know them".

The Bible is not to be "interpreted" but spoken from it word by word.

It was Paul not I who spoke in Gal 1:8-9.

The Trinitarians have not a single proof text in support of the three theism screen smoked with the Trinity God concept. They just trample upon hundreds of proof texts stating cardinally against their concept.

God can not "impart" people with contradicting understanding or with understanding contradicting what He calls the truth.

I don't interpret the scriptures.

I quote from it.

Your argument of interpretation is an argument against you.

It is not I but God said that you should say "it is written so and so" instead of offering your contrary concepts.

You been given many verse Jerzy and have deemed to not accept them. Your denial does not make it so. I wonder if you also do not believe that God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient?
 

jerzy

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Games are in the eye of the beholder Jerzy.

Those having "concepts" about what God is saying instead of speaking as it is written are playing games with God's word, Stan.

Jn 14:9 neither state that there are three Gods no that God is Trinity no that Jesus is God.

This is a typical Trinitarian inferring of their "concept" into God's word.

Since you mention, let's consider Jn 17:5 for a while.

1. If Jesus had glory with God before then why he had to be glorified?
2. Since Jesus' followers were saved before the world began does it mean that they are Gods to?
3. The Lamb was slain when....?

Well, the Trinitarians keep inferring their "concept" to few texts rendering multiple meaning words out of the context because they have not a single proof text to offer as a support of their "concept".

They have not a proof text because it would mean that God contradicted Himself or plainly lied in hundreds of proof texts stating categorically with the absolute statement that the eternal life is for those who know the Father the only one true God and His anointed man whom He raised from David's seed and made him Lord and Christ.

You been given many verse Jerzy and have deemed to not accept them. Your denial does not make it so. I wonder if you also do not believe that God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient?

One proof text will suffice, Stan.

In case you are not convinced then explain what I must do with hundreds of proof texts making the Trinitarian "concept" false to say the least.
 

Stan

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The word “spirit” means “wind”. It was used when people couldn’t ascertain how things were done. Jesus makes it clear in Jn 3:8 provided we read the word “wind” in both cases.
The Spirit of God/the Holy Spirit is never denoted as God the spirit/the Holy Spirit.

Jesus says it in Mt 11:25 & 2Th 2:11 that God hides/blinds people that they believe a lie. Thus they have concepts of what He says instead of speaking as He says.

We must accept His word not man’s concepts about His word.

So you are saying that the Greek word 'pneuma', means 'wind'? Does that mean you're full of wind? If this is how you interpret the Bible then I'm not surprised you have such a problem understanding it. The connotation in Acts 1:5 means spirit as it is translated. The connotation in John 3:8 is wind, as it is translated. This type of misleading people is very disingenuous to say the least. BTW, the Greek word 'hagios' accompanies 'pneuma' here to accurately signify HOLY SPIRIT, not HOLY wind.

The two verses you quote out of Matthew and 2Thess refer to unbelievers who see God's miracles and still do not believe. Again you employ verses out of context and meaning. You are so influenced in using eisegesis that you cannot see what God's Word actually says. I'm not sure it is really possible to make you see the truth of God and who He is.
BTW, the Bible is in Greek and it cannot be seen as strictly a word-for-word translation. It must also be seen as a thought-for thought translation as well. Hence the reason we have modern English translations. Going back to the Greek and using connotations NOT meant for a particular verse, serves no useful purpose at all. The translators have done their job, unless of course you feel you're the only one who can properly translate the scriptures into English?
 

jerzy

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So you are saying that the Greek word 'pneuma', means 'wind'? Does that mean you're full of wind?

Read Jn 3:8 instead of making fun of me, Stan.

I don't need to interpret the Bible to make up some proof for my "concept". I just believe that it is the truth and keep quoting from it.

Hogios also means dedicated.

Nothing is confusing, Stan. The Spirit of God = the Holy Spirit. Just compare, say, 2Sam 23:2 with 2Pe 1:21.

Actually the English word “spirit” is of a later addition to the meaning of pneuma.
Well, I am sure you can not prove that Mt 11:25 and 2Th 2:11 are directed to the unbelievers.

I know God from the OT. It is where He presented Himself to man by His word and acts. The Christians in general don’t even read the OT. The NT records the fulfilment of what God foretold.

There is no thought in the scriptures whereby a Trinitarian “concept” can overrule the clear message.

The Trinitarian translation is full of contradictions, additions and out of context rendition of multiple meaning words.

Go back and read my posts on this thread. I have posted scripture that plainly states it.

Are you claiming that you proven that God contradicted Himself or that he lied?

A proof text, please.

I am sure you remember at least one of them, don't you Son of Man?
 

Stan

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Those having "concepts" about what God is saying instead of speaking as it is written are playing games with God's word, Stan.

Your opinion does NOT make it so. It is your way of not having to deal with what someone says.

Jn 14:9 neither state that there are three Gods no that God is Trinity no that Jesus is God.
This is a typical Trinitarian inferring of their "concept" into God's word.
Since you mention, let's consider Jn 17:5 for a while.

1. If Jesus had glory with God before then why he had to be glorified?
2. Since Jesus' followers were saved before the world began does it mean that they are Gods to?
3. The Lamb was slain when....?

That was NOT the point and now you are playing games, which is the reason I asked you to use the proper quote tools for this forum so I can keep track of how you go OUT of context all the time. We were discussing who God and Jesus are, as regards separate manifestations.
  1. Because He left His glory to come to earth. Phil 2:1-11
  2. This is new to me...do have a 'proof text' for this?
  3. At the crucifixion.
Well, the Trinitarians keep inferring their "concept" to few texts rendering multiple meaning words out of the context because they have not a single proof text to offer as a support of their "concept".
They have not a proof text because it would mean that God contradicted Himself or plainly lied in hundreds of proof texts stating categorically with the absolute statement that the eternal life is for those who know the Father the only one true God and His anointed man whom He raised from David's seed and made him Lord and Christ.


These have been supplied several times to you jerzy. Please keep up. Verses you have supplied have not been contradicted other than to say they only refer to God as ONE, which we all agree with. You for some reason, cannot see the triune nature of man or God. This we cannot help you with, but you have supplied nothing from scripture that indciates this nature is not valid.
From the very first verse of the Bible, that has been carefully explained in this thread, God shows His nature. Jesus is NOT an anointed man, He is God. Why is it you do not address my questions in this regard?


One proof text will suffice, Stan.
In case you are not convinced then explain what I must do with hundreds of proof texts making the Trinitarian "concept" false to say the least.

You've been given them...please answer my question, do you believe God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient?

As I have already said many times, the so-called 'hundreds', (maybe dozens) of what you like to call 'proof texts', do NOT deny a triune God. They enforce that God is a single entity, WITH a triune nature.
 

jerzy

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Your opinion does NOT make it so. It is your way of not having to deal with what someone says.

Can you tell me where you see my opinion here?

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
Act 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. (God of Abraham, Isaak and Jacob YHWH).
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 10:38 – "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."

Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

I asked you to use the proper quote tools for this forum…

This forum combines replies to different posts within 48 HRS unless someone posts in the mean time. Only 9 quotes are allowed.

Now, show written that Jesus left his glory to come to the earth.
Isa 46:10, Mat 25:34, Rom 4:17, Heb 4:3, 2Ti 1:9, Tit 1:2 , Eph 1:4
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.​
You didn’t post a proof text in support of your “Concept”. Otherwise you wouldn’t call it a concept but the truth.
You are not being honest with texts like Jn 17:3. It states that the eternal life is for those who know that the Father is the only true God.

Thus all other Gods are not true. There is not such a thing as triune nature of God. You reject clear texts like 2Sam 7:12, Ac 2:30, Ac 13:23 and many more.
Let me say this again. You have not a scrap of evidence that God lied in hundreds of proof texts making your “concept” the truth.

Jesus is NOT an anointed man, He is God.
Again, it is your contradiction of God’s word. See Isa 61:1, Ps 2:7, Ro 1:3 and many more.
As I have already said many times, the so-called 'hundreds', (maybe dozens) of what you like to call 'proof texts', do NOT deny a triune God. They enforce that God is a single entity, WITH a triune nature.

You neither can show written that God is a single entity with a triune nature no that texts like Jn 17:3 doesn’t deny a triune God. As the matter of fact it doesn’t state that Jesus is also God & not even mention that knowledge of “God” the Holy Spirit is a pre-requisite for the eternal life.
 

Eltanin

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I would like to take this from a different angle...

Jerzy...I am not meaning to pick on you, but I am trying to see why there is an argument here... So please be patient with me...

Do you believe Jesus is God?
Or are you trying to prove that Jesus is not God?
Do you believe the Holy Spirit is God?
Or do you believe that the Holy Spirit is separate from God?

I only believe in one God. Not three...
 

jerzy

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I would like to take this from a different angle...

Jerzy...I am not meaning to pick on you, but I am trying to see why there is an argument here... So please be patient with me...

Do you believe Jesus is God?
Or are you trying to prove that Jesus is not God?
Do you believe the Holy Spirit is God?
Or do you believe that the Holy Spirit is separate from God?

I only believe in one God. Not three...

The Father is the only one true God.

He raised His servant from David's seed and groomed him to be fit as the Lamb. Jesus wasn't, is not and will never be God. The scripture is absolutely clear on this.

The Spirit of God or the "wind" by which God does His acts is not a separate God.
 

Stan

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Read Jn 3:8 instead of making fun of me, Stan.

I did Jerzy and I addressed it as such. You brought up the wind connotation. I admit it was hard to resist to NOT use it back on you. ^_^


I don't need to interpret the Bible to make up some proof for my "concept". I just believe that it is the truth and keep quoting from it.

Well you are doing it a lot of it for someone who says he doesn't interpret. Quoting OUT of context is just as bad as improperly interpreting.

Hogios also means dedicated.

I suggest you read that again. It says; among the Greeks, dedicated to the gods. This is a typical example of how you take ONE word and use improperly. This is an explanation, NOT a connotation. Again you either are deliberately trying to mislead us or you do NOT know how to use these tools. Either way it makes for a dangerous form of eisegesis.

Nothing is confusing, Stan. The Spirit of God = the Holy Spirit. Just compare, say, 2Sam 23:2 with 2Pe 1:21.

Well as this comment is also OUT of context, being that your didn't quote what I said to ellicit this response, I can't answer it.


Actually the English word “spirit” is of a later addition to the meaning of pneuma.
Well, I am sure you can not prove that Mt 11:25 and 2Th 2:11 are directed to the unbelievers.


Really? Maybe you can provide a proof citation for that assertion?
For someone who says all he does is READ God's Word, you don't so a very effective job at it. The proof is right there. How can you miss it unless you are not really looking for it?
Matthew 11:20; Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.(unbelievers)
2Thess 2:10; They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.(unbelievers)


I know God from the OT. It is where He presented Himself to man by His word and acts. The Christians in general don’t even read the OT. The NT records the fulfilment of what God foretold.


Are you actually saved Jerzy? Do you know Jesus as your personal Saviour? Are you filled with the Holy Spirit? The Bible makes it very clear, that you cannot know God unless you accept Jesus.


There is no thought in the scriptures whereby a Trinitarian “concept” can overrule the clear message.
The Trinitarian translation is full of contradictions, additions and out of context rendition of multiple meaning words.


You keep saying this and yet you do NOT provide ANY viable proof.
 

us2are1

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Read Jn 3:8 instead of making fun of me, Stan.

I don't need to interpret the Bible to make up some proof for my "concept". I just believe that it is the truth and keep quoting from it.

Hogios also means dedicated.

Nothing is confusing, Stan. The Spirit of God = the Holy Spirit. Just compare, say, 2Sam 23:2 with 2Pe 1:21.

Actually the English word “spirit” is of a later addition to the meaning of pneuma.
Well, I am sure you can not prove that Mt 11:25 and 2Th 2:11 are directed to the unbelievers.

I know God from the OT. It is where He presented Himself to man by His word and acts. The Christians in general don’t even read the OT. The NT records the fulfilment of what God foretold.

There is no thought in the scriptures whereby a Trinitarian “concept” can overrule the clear message.

The Trinitarian translation is full of contradictions, additions and out of context rendition of multiple meaning words.



Are you claiming that you proven that God contradicted Himself or that he lied?

A proof text, please.

I am sure you remember at least one of them, don't you Son of Man?

You don't know what Spirit you are of.

I will leave you with this good advise. Ask God to fill you with Himself and push out that spirit and lead you into all truth.

It is not ok to speak against the lord to prove your point. To even suggest it shows there is is a possession going on.
 

Stan

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Can you tell me where you see my opinion here?

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
Act 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. (God of Abraham, Isaak and Jacob YHWH).
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 10:38 – "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."

Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.


Nope, no opinions above...only scripture. It's what you do with the scripture that is the problem Jerzy. Your opinions have been duly noted on this thread. I can quote the whole Bible, but without any context it is just a good read.


This forum combines replies to different posts within 48 HRS unless someone posts in the mean time. Only 9 quotes are allowed.

and I though you didn't know how this forum worked?


Now, show written that Jesus left his glory to come to the earth.
Isa 46:10, Mat 25:34, Rom 4:17, Heb 4:3, 2Ti 1:9, Tit 1:2 , Eph 1:4

I just did. You need to pay attention. What do these scriptures relate to? Are you just going to start showing scripture verses all the time?



Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Well again you don't understand what you are reading. Maybe a more accurate English version of the Bible will help you. Here it is in the NASB.
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.




You didn’t post a proof text in support of your “Concept”. Otherwise you wouldn’t call it a concept but the truth.


Again out of context, I have no idea what you are referring to here.



You are not being honest with texts like Jn 17:3. It states that the eternal life is for those who know that the Father is the only true God.

Oh I see so when you quote a verse you are being honest but when I do, I'm NOT being honest?
This verse reads; Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Not making a statement or committing to a position on ANY scripture is not being honest. Honesty means NOT holding back. You seem determined now, to imply that Jesus Christ is NOT God? You need to be clear now. Is Jesus God or not? Stop with the scriptural antics, just answer the simple question.




Thus all other Gods are not true. There is not such a thing as triune nature of God. You reject clear texts like 2Sam 7:12, Ac 2:30, Ac 13:23 and many more.
Let me say this again. You have not a scrap of evidence that God lied in hundreds of proof texts making your “concept” the truth.


I don't reject ANY scripture. I just don't negatively read into them what you do.
I don't reject these scriptures at all. They are true prophecies about Jesus' birth.
I have provided many evidences to you, you just don't accept them. Your loss I'm afraid.


Again, it is your contradiction of God’s word. See Isa 61:1, Ps 2:7, Ro 1:3 and many more.

I don't contradict God's word, I contradict you. In John 8:58; Jesus said to them, “I tell you the solemn truth, before Abraham came to be, I am!” Just as God said in Exodus 3:14


You neither can show written that God is a single entity with a triune nature no that texts like Jn 17:3 doesn’t deny a triune God. As the matter of fact it doesn’t state that Jesus is also God & not even mention that knowledge of “God” the Holy Spirit is a pre-requisite for the eternal life.


I've have already shown you what John 17:3 states. The fact that God and Jesus ARE one is shown throughout scripture as in John 17:11b; Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
Acceptance of who and what Jesus is, is a pre-requisite for salvation and eternal life.

The Father is the only one true God.

He raised His servant from David's seed and groomed him to be fit as the Lamb. Jesus wasn't, is not and will never be God. The scripture is absolutely clear on this.

The Spirit of God or the "wind" by which God does His acts is not a separate God.

Well now finally your true colours. Wonder why you didn't answer me before. So for a man that claims to only believe what God's Word says, what about this scripture? John 10:30; "I and the Father are one.”
 

Eltanin

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The Father is the only one true God.

He raised His servant from David's seed and groomed him to be fit as the Lamb. Jesus wasn't, is not and will never be God. The scripture is absolutely clear on this.

The Spirit of God or the "wind" by which God does His acts is not a separate God.
Ok... Thank you for clearing this up... I see why there is argument now...
I would have to agree with Stan and his acknowledgement of John 10:30...

... But I see why you are leery of the idea of the Trinity. But belief in a trinity does not turn Christianity into a polytheistic religion...

There isn't really much else I can say to you if you do not believe Jesus is God... I wonder, do you believe Jesus is the Son of God?
 

Trekson

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Hi Jerzy, Here's a couple of scriptures for you. 1 Cor. 2:14 - "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

You see, you need to be filled with the Holy Spirit of God to understand the Holy Spirit of God. If you constantly reject His existence you'll never know spiritual truth.

Also these verses: John 14:16-17 - "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [sup]17 [/sup]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

and vs. 26 - "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

You will never come to the truth if you continue to reject the TRUTH, in the person of the Holy Spirit. My final word: All the scriptural knowledge in the world is meaningless without the guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead one to understanding. Satan probably knows the scriptures better than any human ever did but it doesn't do him a bit of good now does it?

except maybe in cases like this. If He can keep people overly concerned with the minutae of scriptural verbage then he is effectively steering them away from finding real truth.
 

jerzy

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Again you either are deliberately trying to mislead us or you do NOT know how to use these tools. Either way it makes for a dangerous form of eisegesis.

Hi Stan.

Your accusations aren’t true or needed.

This are the facts:

Yes, that limit is in place because of a problem we have with people posting volumes of copied and pasted material. There really shouldn't be a need to post within 48 hours, in my experience. It was previously unlimited, but was abused. We're not here to limit, unless it's to build a deeper conversation.
http://www.christian...he-limitations/

They cannot make 10 posts in a row that yields the equivalent of a short book. The character limit will be hit.
http://www.christian...separate-posts/

I have 5 posts to reply to of which 2 by Stan are complex. http://www.christian...ot/page__st__60

How am I supposed to do it in 5 or 9 quotes?

Posted here: http://www.christian...he-limitations/


So let me try to answer to your, Trekson’s, Eltanin’s and Son of Man posts. To avoid hitting a limit of characters (I don’t know the setting) I will try to be quick.

Stan, you didn’t provide a single proof texts and you know it, don’t you Stan?

All you have done so far is inferring the Trinitarian “Concept” wherever you could.


among the Greeks, dedicated to the gods” proves that “Holy” means dedicated.

Thanks Stan.

Ghost preceded Spirit in English translations of pneuma.

In Mt 11:25 and 2Th 2:10 reference is made to the believing in God Jews not to pagans.

Yes, I am saved.

However, those rejecting that the Father is the only one true God rejecting the fundamental pre-requisite for attaining to the eternal life.


I have posted few of hundreds of proof texts making the Trinitarian “concept” false.

You neither provided a single proof text in support of your “concept” no shown written that there are three Gods, that God is Trinity no written “God Jesus” no “God” the Holy Spirit.

You have to prove that the texts I posted are my opinions or misrepresentation of their context or what the scriptures states throughout.

Empty accusations prove your fault.

You didn’t show a proof text that Jesus left his glory to come to the earth. You just inferred your concept into few texts while I posted texts (Isa 46:10, Mat 25:34, Rom 4:17, Heb 4:3, 2Ti 1:9, Tit 1:2 , Eph 1:4) showing that God speaks about things that are not as if they were because to Him all things were completed before the world began.

It is not my fault that few of the Trinitarian translations contradict NASB.


Pity you have no idea what I am referring to here “You didn’t post a proof text in support of your “concept”. Otherwise you wouldn’t call it a concept but the truth.”

Your comment of Jn 17:3 is to explain away the fact that “thee” (the Father. See verse 1) is the only true God, that He sent His anointed man as He foretold, that “God” the Holy Spirit is not mentioned, that the eternal life is hinged upon this knowledge.

You have never attempted to explain away the fact that Jesus was raised from David’s seed: 2Sam 7:12, Ac 2:30, Ac 13:23

Jesus was foretold long before Abraham is mentioned.

You attempted to explain Jn 17:3 away. There are texts like 1Co 8:6 or opening of each epistle whereby The Father is said to be the one God, our God.

You missed Jn 17:21: that they also may be one in us”.

Jesus neither said in Jn 10:30 that He is God no that he and the Father is one and the same person. He never did.

You don't know what Spirit you are of.

The Spirit of God.

God fills with His spirit not with Himself.

I already know that God’s word is the truth.

It is never ok to speak against the Lord.

Ok... Thank you for clearing this up... I see why there is argument now...
I would have to agree with Stan and his acknowledgement of John 10:30...

Which one?
  1. Jesus and the Father are two seperate Gods?
  2. Jesus and the Father is one and the same entity, one and the same God?
The Trinity is just a smoke screen of the three theism.

The Trinitarians teach that there are three Gods: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Don’t say what is not written.

Remember Gal 1:8-9.

Do you believe that Jesus’ followers are sons of God?

Consider this:

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God…​

Hi Jerzy, Here's a couple of scriptures for you. 1 Cor. 2:14 - "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

You see, you need to be filled with the Holy Spirit of God to understand the Holy Spirit of God. If you constantly reject His existence you'll never know spiritual truth.

I neither reject the Spirit of God (not God the Spirit) no the working of God in Jesus’ followers by His dedicated Spirit.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:​
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;​
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,​

“the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name” – thanks for confirming my point.

‘in the person of the Holy Spirit”.

Are you aware about many personifications in the scriptures?

I know where you got your “guidance” from since you mention your idol Satan.

Please consider the scriptures and refrain from vane rhetoric:


Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.​

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​
 

Stan

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Hi Stan.

Your accusations aren’t true or needed.

This are the facts:

Yes, that limit is in place because of a problem we have with people posting volumes of copied and pasted material. There really shouldn't be a need to post within 48 hours, in my experience. It was previously unlimited, but was abused. We're not here to limit, unless it's to build a deeper conversation.
http://www.christian...he-limitations/

They cannot make 10 posts in a row that yields the equivalent of a short book. The character limit will be hit.
http://www.christian...separate-posts/

I have 5 posts to reply to of which 2 by Stan are complex. http://www.christian...ot/page__st__60

How am I supposed to do it in 5 or 9 quotes?

Posted here: http://www.christian...he-limitations/


I wasn't talking about this issue you raise here. Please keep your comments/responses within context.


So let me try to answer to your, Trekson’s, Eltanin’s and Son of Man posts. To avoid hitting a limit of characters (I don’t know the setting) I will try to be quick.

Stan, you didn’t provide a single proof texts and you know it, don’t you Stan?

All you have done so far is inferring the Trinitarian “Concept” wherever you could.


I've provided more than enough for a blind man to understand, but as you are totally deluded in regards to who God IS, I'm afraid you will not see in this thread. Anyone who does not believe Jesus is God, is unfortunately, NOT saved.




However, those rejecting that the Father is the only one true God rejecting the fundamental pre-requisite for attaining to the eternal life.

Actually Jesus said, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Matthew 11:27




Jesus neither said in Jn 10:30 that He is God no that he and the Father is one and the same person. He never did.

You are sounding like you are going to have a nervous breakdown here. I regret you are being faced with the lie you have believed, that Jesus is NOT God. You have been bound by a spirit of deception to prevent you from recognizing who The Christ is, and consequently because you deny Him before men, He will deny you before the Father. Matthew 10:32-33; Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

John 10:30 in five English translations;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2010:30&version=NIV;MOUNCE;NASB;KJV;HCSB

or how about John 14:9 in the same five?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:9&version=NIV;MOUNCE;NASB;KJV;HCSB

Then there is John 14:11, John 10:37-38, and others I've quoted previously.


Your agenda has been made clear now and therefore your status. There is nothing more I can say to you until you confess to Jesus who he is. Unfortunately, you are suffering from a trilemma, and ONLY God and His Word can help you now.

I will not debate this any further with you, as this part of the forum is for Christians ONLY, and you are NOT one.