The twelfth Apostle

[Sigma]

Just because there were things not written doesn't mean someone can go back in and fill them in later though.

I guess we all have to decide for ourselves what we believe as coming from God. I'm sticking to the Bible.

Much love!

There are those who write falsehoods, but there's also those write Truth at the behest of heavenly persons, such as Jesus, and we are not without helps, spiritual and material, to help us discern what is and isn't of God.

Maria Valtorta was chosen by Jesus to be His "pen," to show Her scenes from His public life, beginning with His birth and ending after His resurrection, then write all she heard, saw, and was told by Him to say. All her writings were compiled into a total of five volumes entitled: The Gospels As They Were Revealed To Me, or The Poem of the Man-God: Vols. I-V.

There's no denying the scenes we read about it in the New Testament of The Bible are often brief, and there's people who twist or misunderstand, etc., what little we information we do have, which is why we have numerous interpretations of the same verses. So, I love that when I'm reading a scene from the New Testament, I can reference the same scene in The Poem of the Man-God which is described in full, and I'm left with a clearer understanding. Through reading I've also come to know the personalities of Jesus, the apostles, and other characters we read about, as well the landscapes around Palestine, etc., and it's a very intimate experience.

At the end of volume V, Jesus gives His reasons for the Work, which you can read here. Despite your current reservations regarding the Work, I encourage you to ask Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be with you while you read those reasons, and perhaps you'll feel their loving invitation to read the Work, and thus experience Jesus's life on earth with Him as if you were a real witness too.

 

[Sigma]

Jesus never commanded them to cast lots and Jesus PERSONALLY HIMSELF chose in PERSON each one of His Apostles.

Now show me where Jesus picked him like He did with the original 12 and Paul ?

The conversion of Paul and election of Matthias both took place after Jesus's ascension into Heaven, which is why Jesus wasn't present for both events in person. God can choose whoever He wants from earth or from Heaven. You claimed it wasn't God's decision to elect Matthias as Judas Iscariot's replacement. Again, I show you're wrong:

"So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles". (Ac. 1:23-26). Through drawing lots, God showed the apostles, like they asked Him to, who they said He had chosen.

 

[DJT_47]

While Many count Paul to be the replacement for Judas Iscariot, Paul himself did not.

1 Corinthians 15:1-6 KJV
1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6) After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Paul did not include himself among the twelve.

1 Corinthians 15:7-8 KJV
7) After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8) And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles, and was not counted as one of the 12.

Much love!

Actually besides Paul, Barnabas and Apollos were referred to as apostles. Barnabas in Acts 14:14, and Apollos in 1 Cor 4:1-9

 

[marks]

At the end of volume V, Jesus gives His reasons for the Work, which you can read here. Despite your current reservations regarding the Work, I encourage you to ask Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be with you while you read those reasons, and perhaps you'll feel their loving invitation to experience Jesus's life on earth with Him as if you were a real witness too, etc.

No, I have a theological objection to such, and I reserve the Bible itself as God's written revelation to man.

Many make many claims. I'm sticking with the Bible.

I actually just took a look at this writing that you are promoting. I wasn't able to copy and paste to show the examples, but it was not difficult at all to find places where it adds to what is revealed in ways that can change how you understand the Bible, and I am resounding against that, again, it's a theological matter to me.

Throughout history people have written things and claimed they were from God, but obviously they are not all telling the truth. This reminds me of The Chosen, which I see the same way. Someone has assembled a bunch of stories about things as though it were the "back story" to the Bible stories.

Much love!

Edit to add . . . I've been looking further . . . it seems to me the claim that Adam and Eve were not permitted to procreate until the fall directly contradicts Scripture.

 

[marks]

The conversion of Paul and election of Matthias both took place after Jesus's ascension into Heaven, which is why Jesus wasn't present for both events in person. God can choose whoever He wants from earth or from Heaven. You claimed it wasn't God's decision to elect Matthias as Judas Iscariot's replacement. Again, I show you're wrong:

"So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles". (Ac. 1:23-26). Through drawing lots, God showed the apostles, like they asked Him to, who they said He had chosen.

And of course Peter quoted the prophecy from the Psalm,

Acts 1:15-20 EMTV

15) And in those days Peter, rising up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), said,
16) Men, brothers; it was necessary for this Scripture to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus;
17) for he was numbered with us and obtained a portion in this ministry."
18) (Now this man purchased a field by means of the wages of his unrighteousness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.
19) And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20) For it is written in the book of Psalms: 'Let his homestead become desolate, and let no one dwell in it'; and, 'May another take his office of overseer. '

Much love!

 

[marks]

Actually besides Paul, Barnabas and Apollos were referred to as apostles. Barnabas in Acts 14:14, and Apollos in 1 Cor 4:1-9

There is another reference,

Romans 16:7 KJV
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Depending on how you read it, this could mean these two also.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

The conversion of Paul and election of Matthias both took place after Jesus's ascension into Heaven, which is why Jesus wasn't present for both events in person. God can choose whoever He wants from earth or from Heaven. You claimed it wasn't God's decision to elect Matthias as Judas Iscariot's replacement. Again, I show you're wrong:

"So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles". (Ac. 1:23-26). Through drawing lots, God showed the apostles, like they asked Him to, who they said He had chosen.

He chose Paul personally years after His Ascension.

 

[Sigma]

He chose Paul personally years after His Ascension.

I didn't say He didn't choose Paul personally. You said, "Now show me where Jesus picked him (Matthias) like He did with the original 12 and Paul?" So, I said, He didn't choose Matthias "in person" as in "in the flesh," like He did with the apostles, because He had already ascended to Heaven. You claimed it wasn't God's decision to elect Matthias as Judas Iscariot's replacement. Again, I show you're wrong:

"So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles". (Ac. 1:23-26). Through drawing lots, God showed the apostles, like they asked Him to, who they said He had chosen.

 

[ChristisGod]

I didn't say He didn't choose Paul personally, I said He didn't do "in person" as in "in the flesh," like He did with the apostles. Read more carefully please.

So then Jesus didn’t choose Mathias like He did the 12 and Paul. We can agree here. Thanks !

 

[JohnDB]

The office of "apostle" in Jerusalem had a lot of responsibilities. Even though Jesus had been arrested, tried, convicted and executed there were still over 200 faithful gathered together. Once the story of Jesus's resurrection became known AND the event at Pentecost...these apostles were busy attending to the disciples. (Division of labor and prayers)
Many needed a bit of food from the Temple Treasury/storehouses. As such they needed more help...which caused Stephen to be chosen.
Paul was the "13th" Apostle.

For those who actually paid attention to the claimed sons of Jacob/Israel ....
How many sons did he actually have?
We always talk about the "12 tribes" of Israel...but how many were there in reality?

Especially considering that the tribe of Levites were never counted.

 

[ChristisGod]

I didn't say He didn't choose Paul personally. You said, "Now show me where Jesus picked him (Matthias) like He did with the original 12 and Paul?" So, I said, He didn't choose Matthias "in person" as in "in the flesh," like He did with the apostles, because He had already ascended to Heaven. You claimed it wasn't God's decision to elect Matthias as Judas Iscariot's replacement. Again, I show you're wrong:

"So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles". (Ac. 1:23-26). Through drawing lots, God showed the apostles, like they asked Him to, who they said He had chosen.

There was no lots in choosing the 12 or Paul. They sought the person out on their own not from being told from Jesus to make a choice.

 

[Sigma]

So then Jesus didn’t choose Mathias like He did the 12 and Paul. We can agree here. Thanks !

God didn't have to be physically on earth to choose Matthias as Judas Iscariot's replacement. God can be on earth or in Heaven and choose whoever He wants. You claimed it wasn't God's decision to elect Matthias as Judas Iscariot's replacement. Again, I show you're wrong:

"So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles". (Ac. 1:23-26). Through drawing lots, God showed the apostles, like they asked Him to, who they said He had chosen.

 

[Sigma]

I actually just took a look at this writing that you are promoting. I wasn't able to copy and paste to show the examples, but it was not difficult at all to find places where it adds to what is revealed in ways that can change how you understand the Bible...

Don't stop at empty accusations. Give supposed examples. If you can't copy/paste directly from source, just read and type it out yourself, then copy/paste that.

Edit to add . . . I've been looking further . . . it seems to me the claim that Adam and Eve were not permitted to procreate until the fall directly contradicts Scripture.

Quote exactly what you supposedly read. If you can't copy/paste directly from source, just read and type it out yourself, then copy/paste that.

Throughout history people have written things and claimed they were from God, but obviously they are not all telling the truth.

I already said that, and since some do tell the Truth, should they not be listened to also?

I'm sticking with the Bible.

That's fine, I read the books that make up the Bible too, but you're missing out on other gifts from Jesus. ;]

 

[marks]

Quote exactly what you supposedly read. If you can't copy/paste directly from source, just read and type it out yourself, then copy/paste that.

Edit to add . . . I've been looking further . . . it seems to me the claim that Adam and Eve were not permitted to procreate until the fall directly contradicts Scripture.

* * Do you dispute that this writing says this?

Anyway, I don't need to get into a big deal about this. I've ascertained for myself that this writing contradicts the Bible, which does not surprise me. I'll leave others to explore for them self.

This thread is actually about the choosing of the 12th apostle, so let's get back to that.

Much love!

 

[Sigma]

I've been looking further . . . it seems to me the claim that Adam and Eve were not permitted to procreate until the fall directly contradicts Scripture. Do you dispute that this writing says this?

I've read all five volumes and you're not presenting what was said accurately. So, quote exactly what you supposedly read and where from. If you can't copy/paste directly from source, just read and type it out yourself, then copy/paste that, then we'll discuss it.

 

[Sigma]

This thread is actually about the choosing of the 12th apostle, so let's get back to that.

Then you shouldn't have started what you can't finish. So, how about I start a thread about Maria Valtorta and you quote exactly what you read about Adam and Eve there?

 

[marks]

I've read all five volumes and you're not presenting what was said accurately. So, quote exactly what you supposedly read and where from. If you can't copy/paste directly from source, just read and type it out yourself, then copy/paste that, then we'll discuss it.

Like I said, not interested . . . back to topic. Please. Feel free to begin a new thread.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Then you shouldn't have started what you can't finish.

Let's not get petty and personal, OK?

Much love!

 

[Jim C]

Referring to our Lord Jesus Christ as "Man-God" tells me that what follows is suitable for fertilizer and not much else.

 

[Sigma]

Let's not get petty and personal, OK?

Much love!

I wasn't. You chose to go off-topic and give an example from Maria Valtorta's writings that you claim contradicts what we read in the Bible. So, I asked you to quote what you read, and suddenly it's, "Oh, that's off topic." So, how about I start a thread about Maria Valtorta and you quote exactly what you read about Adam and Eve there?