The twelfth Apostle

[ChristisGod]

God didn't have to be physically on earth to choose Matthias as Judas Iscariot's replacement. God can be on earth or in Heaven and choose whoever He wants. You claimed it wasn't God's decision to elect Matthias as Judas Iscariot's replacement. Again, I show you're wrong:

"So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles". (Ac. 1:23-26). Through drawing lots, God showed the apostles, like they asked Him to, who they said He had chosen.

From Got Questions

But, was this the Lord’s choice? Some propose that Paul, not Matthias, was God’s choice for the 12th apostle. They argue that Jesus had told the apostles to wait for the coming of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8) and that casting lots is not how the disciples should have made the decision. They also point out that Matthias is never again mentioned in the New Testament, while Paul obviously became very prominent in the early Christian church. So, are they correct that Paul, not Matthias, was God’s choice to be Judas’ replacement as the 12th apostle?

The New Testament nowhere condones or condemns the way the apostles made the decision in Acts 1. Casting lots was a biblically allowed method of making a decision (Proverbs 16:33). And, while Matthias is never again mentioned in the New Testament, the same can be said for most of the other 11 apostles. Church history records that Matthias died as a martyr for Christ, as did all of the other apostles, except John. Yes, Paul was definitely more prominent than Matthias, but Paul was more prominent than any of the other apostles, except for perhaps Peter and John. Also, Paul would not have been qualified based on the apostles’ criteria (Acts 1:21-22). So, a conclusive biblical case cannot be made for the 11 apostles’ choice of Matthias being invalid.

Further, God is sovereign. If it was not His sovereign will for Matthias to be chosen, Matthias would not have been chosen. It could be argued that, while it was God’s sovereign will (what He ordained) for Matthias to be chosen, it was God’s perfect will (what He desired) for the apostles to wait for Paul. But, this would be pure speculation, as, again, the Bible nowhere condemns Matthias being chosen for the 12th apostle.

So, what name will be written on the 12th foundation in the heavenly Jerusalem (Revelation 21:14)? The Bible does not explicitly say, but it likely will be Matthias. Ultimately, though, we will have to wait to find out.

 

[DJT_47]

There is another reference,

Romans 16:7 KJV
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Depending on how you read it, this could mean these two also.

Much love!

I see how it could possibly be misinterpreted to mean or infer they too were apostles, but I read it as they are noteworthy and/or recognized by the apostles.

 

[Sigma]

...casting lots is not how the disciples should have made the decision.

The disciples and apostles didn't make the decision. God had already made the decision. The apostles asked God to show them whom He had chosen, and He showed them He chose Matthias over Joseph through the drawing of lots:

"So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles". (Ac. 1:23-26)

 

[marks]

I wasn't. You chose to go off-topic and give an example from Maria Valtorta's writings that you claim contradicts what we read in the Bible. So, I asked you to quote what you read, and suddenly you basically say, "Oh, that's off topic." So, how about I start a thread about Maria Valtorta and you quote exactly what you read about Adam and Eve there?

Yes, I decided to pursue this a bit with you, and I'm no longer interested. I was sharing with you reasons for my conclusions, but I'm not really interested in having a big discussion about this.

Our little digression here never was for me intended to become the new topic.

So if you want to be accurate you can criticize me for for starting something I don't want to finish. Saying I'm starting something I can't finish, well, do you see the difference?

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

I love Scott's perspective below regarding the disciple's choosing in Acts 1. :

Scott Ranck
TH.b in Theology & Leadership, Piedmont International University (Graduated 1986)

Absolutely, it was a wrong choice. The Book of Acts could be titled the Acts of the Holy Spirit. Throughout the writing, the Spirit intiated almost every move. The Spirit initiated Pentecost, The Spirit intiated Paul and Barnabas to be selected for missionary service. Chapter 1 of Acts to me pictures how most churches operate today. We quote a couple verses to support our ideas, we pray and then we charge off on our own to do what we think is best.

Jesus told them to wait in Jerusalem until the promise of the Spirit came. All of the 12 were hand picked by Jesus. Even the qualifications Peter gives for an apostle, are made up by him on the spot. The real only qualification for an apostle is that you be hand picked by Jesus.

Remeber the Scriptures accurately record what was taking place, but the things taking place are not necessarily what God wanted. These are here for the wise to see how foolish we can be in Christian service.

Then they nominate two guys and say, okay God, which one do you want! How absurd! What if God’s answer was neither? Which is exactly what His answer was.

Saul of Tarsus was Jesus choice for filling the position. Everything changes after Acts 2 and the Spirit comes upon them and the church is born. Matthais is never mentioned again, while Jesus choice rocks the world with his work and writing. I believe Acts 1 is to show us how not to do ministry.

The remainder of Acts is showing us how to do ministry. Humble yourself before the Lord and wait for his promptings and proddings. Often times in Acts, Paul’s journeys changed course because the Spirit or an Angel redirected him.

Acts 1, is Peter being Peter. Type A, impulsive and often running out in front of God. This is an example of Peter before he was tamed by the Spirit!

 

[marks]

Jesus told them to wait in Jerusalem until the promise of the Spirit came. All of the 12 were hand picked by Jesus. Even the qualifications Peter gives for an apostle, are made up by him on the spot. The real only qualification for an apostle is that you be hand picked by Jesus.

There is a matter of "having seen the risen Lord".

1 Corinthians 9:1-2 KJV
1) Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
2) If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.

Acts 1:22 KJV
Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Acts 1:8 KJV
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

This is what they are testifying, that Jesus is risen indeed!

1 Corinthians 15:1-5 KJV
1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

This was to be an eye witness to all that had happened from the beginning.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

Paul: I became an apostle because I saw a vision of Jesus, and he sent me to preach the gospel.

Matthias: I became one of the Twelve after some of the guys got together, said a prayer, and flipped a coin. I won the coin toss.

Paul went on to travel the world as a missionary, while authoring a number of books found in the New Testament. Matthias was never heard about again.

Guess maybe the jury is still out on that one..?

 

[ChristisGod]

There is a matter of "having seen the risen Lord".

1 Corinthians 9:1-2 KJV
1) Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
2) If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.

Acts 1:22 KJV
Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Acts 1:8 KJV
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

This is what they are testifying, that Jesus is risen indeed!

1 Corinthians 15:1-5 KJV
1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

This was to be an eye witness to all that had happened from the beginning.

Much love!

Paul saw the Risen Lord and was picked by Jesus in Person. He was an Apostle and was taught by Christ personally for 3 years in the wilderness as he tells us in Galatians. Even better than the original 12 since Paul was born again when meeting Jesus and the 12 were not until Pentecost.

I'll take Pauls experience 24/7 over the 12. The 12 didn't even understand the gospel until Pentecost. Paul understood it immediately.

hope this helps !!!

 

[marks]

Paul saw the Risen Lord and was picked by Jesus in Person. He was an Apostle and was taught by Christ personally for 3 years in the wilderness as he tells us in Galatians. Even better than the original 12 since Paul was born again when meeting Jesus and the 12 were not until Pentecost.

I'll take Pauls experience 24/7 over the 12. The 12 didn't even understand the gospel until Pentecost. Paul understood it immediately.

hope this helps !!!

What do you think regarding Paul referring to the 12 as "the 12"? Doesn't that show Paul's agreement?

Much love!

 

[Sigma]

Matthias: I became one of the Twelve after some of the guys got together, said a prayer, and flipped a coin. I won the coin toss.

Drawing lots isn't a coin toss. And God had already made the decision, which is why the apostles prayed asking Him to show them whom He had chosen:

"So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”

How did God show them? By the results of the drawing lots: "And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles" (Ac. 1:23-26). White and dark stones were placed into a little bag. The white stones represented Matthias. The dark stones represented Joseph. Peter reached in the bag and took out a white stone. That result was God showing them through the drawing lots whom He had already chosen.

 

[marks]

Paul: I became an apostle because I saw a vision of Jesus, and he sent me to preach the gospel.

Matthias: I became one of the Twelve after some of the guys got together, said a prayer, and flipped a coin. I won the coin toss.

Paul went on to travel the world as a missionary, while authoring a number of books found in the New Testament. Matthias was never heard about again.

Guess maybe the jury is still out on that one..?

How many of the Apostles do you know what happened regarding? Did all the Apostles write books of the Bible? (no) Did any who were NOT Apostles write books of the Bible? (yes)

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

What is the qualification of an Apostle ?


Ephesians 2:19-20
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

Acts 1:21-22
Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."

1 Corinthians 9:1-2
Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? 2 Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:8-9
8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Revelation 21:14
The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

The Apostles also performed miracles, signs and wonders as confirmation they were sent by God/Christ. Acts 2:43 cf 2 Corinthians 2:12

 

[Sigma]

Paul went on to travel the world as a missionary, while authoring a number of books found in the New Testament.

Yet, Paul doesn't consider himself one of the twelve apostles. Were you unaware of that?

 

[Sigma]

Yes, I decided to pursue this a bit with you, and I'm no longer interested. I was sharing with you reasons for my conclusions, but I'm not really interested in having a big discussion about this.

Our little digression here never was for me intended to become the new topic.

So if you want to be accurate you can criticize me for for starting something I don't want to finish. Saying I'm starting something I can't finish, well, do you see the difference?

Much love!

You can't finish what you started in this thread because it's off-topic, yes? So, I was right in saying that. And, since it's off-topic, I'm sure you agree you went off-topic by giving an example from the book The Poem of the Man-God you think contradicts what you read in the Book of Genesis in the first place. Anyway, again, how about I start a thread about Maria Valtorta and you quote exactly what you read about Adam and Eve there? Or, do you not want to back up your claim in that thread?

 

[ChristisGod]

How many of the Apostles do you know what happened regarding? Did all the Apostles write books of the Bible? (no) Did any who were NOT Apostles write books of the Bible? (yes)

Much love!

Remove Pauls writing form the N.T. and you are left without most all of the doctrines of the Christian Faith.

 

[ChristisGod]

Yet, Paul doesn't consider himself one of the twelve apostles. Were you unaware of that?

Doesn't need to since God used him to correct the 12 and their hypocrisy and confronted Peter and Barnabas to their face.

 

[Sigma]

Doesn't need to since God used him to correct the 12 and their hypocrisy as Jews .

Where do you read Paul didn't need to be an apostle?

 

[marks]

You can't finish what you started in this thread because it's off-topic, yes? So, I was right in saying that.

Can't . . . won't . . . say it however you want. This is becoming less and less interesting as we are now debating over what I said.

So, I'll leave it with what I wrote in post 44.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

Where do you read Paul didn't need to be an apostle?

Thats not what I said. Didn't need your criteria.

 

[marks]

Remove Pauls writing form the N.T. and you are left without most all of the doctrines of the Christian Faith.

I wouldn't remove any of the books of the Bible.

The one who wrote the largest part of the New Testament wasn't even neccessarily a Jew, and was not called an apostle, that being Luke. Let's leave his books there also.

Much love!