The twelfth Apostle

[marks]

While Many count Paul to be the replacement for Judas Iscariot, Paul himself did not.

1 Corinthians 15:1-6 KJV
1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6) After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Paul did not include himself among the twelve.

1 Corinthians 15:7-8 KJV
7) After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8) And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles, and was not counted as one of the 12.

Much love!

 

[Stumpmaster]

While Many count Paul to be the replacement for Judas Iscariot, Paul himself did not.

1 Corinthians 15:1-6 KJV
1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6) After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Paul did not include himself among the twelve.

1 Corinthians 15:7-8 KJV
7) After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8) And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles, and was not counted as one of the 12.

Much love!

As Saul, at first he was antagonistic towards the twelve, and all who joined them.

 

[marks]

As Saul, at first he was antagonistic towards the twelve, and all who joined them.

To say the least!

And you make a good point . . . the 12 were an established group before Paul was converted.

Much love!

 

[Sigma]

While Many count Paul to be the replacement for Judas Iscariot...

I don't know how, unless they're unaware of the following passage that explicitly names Judas Iscariot's replacement: "So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles." (Ac. 1:23-26)

 

[marks]

I don't know how, unless they're unaware of the following passage that explicitly names Judas Iscariot's replacement: "So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles." (Ac. 1:23-26)

I've heard a number of times pastors or teachers discount the choosing by lots as a "fleshy" thing, and that they were mistaken to do that, and therefore mistaken in their result. Pretty much they just say Peter and the rest were wrong to do it that way.

Much love!

 

[Sigma]

I've heard a number of times pastors or teachers discount the choosing by lots as a "fleshy" thing, and that they were mistaken to do that, and therefore mistaken in their result. Pretty much they just say Peter and the rest were wrong to do it that way.

Much love!

Ah, thank you for explaining. Well, in short, in the 1940's Maria Valtorta was chosen by Jesus to be His "pen," to show Her scenes from His public life, beginning with His birth and ending after His resurrection, then write all she heard, saw, and was told by Him to say. All her writings were compiled into a total of five volumes entitled: The Gospels As They Were Revealed To Me, or The Poem of the Man-God. They are a loving gift from Jesus that gives a more detailed look into the stories we read about in the Bible and others, including the scene of the election of Matthias on April 26th, 1947, which you can read about in full in The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. V, ch. 635, pp. 446-447. Below is an excerpt:

They consult with one another. After a short time the most important disciples (among the non-shepherds), by mutual consent with the ten apostles, inform Peter that they propose Joseph, the son of Joseph of Saba, to honor his father, a martyr for Christ, by means of his son, a faithful disciple, and to Matthias, for the same reasons as for Joseph, and, further, to honor also his first master: John.

And as Peter agrees to their advice, they make the two come forward to the table, in the meantime they pray with their arms stretched forward in the usual attitude of the Hebrews: "Most High Lord, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Only and Trine God, Who know the hearts of all men, show us which these two You have chosen to take in this ministry and apostolate the place of Judas, who prevaricated, and go in his seat."

"Maran atha" they all reply in chorus.

As they have no dice or anything with with which to cast lots, and as they do not wish to use coins for this same purpose, they take some small stones spread about the yard, some poor little stones, as many white as dark, and they decide that the white stones are for Matthias, the others for Joseph. They put them in a bag, after emptying it of its contents, they shake it and they offer it to Peter who, after making a blessing gesture on it, puts his hand in it, praying with his eyes at the sky, strewn with stars, and pulls out a little stone: as white as snow. The Lord has indicated Matthias as Judas' successor.

Peter goes to the front of the table and embraces him "to make him like himself" he says. Also the other ten make the same gesture amid the applause of the little crowd.

At the end Peter, after going back to his place holding by hand the chosen apostle who is beside him — so Peter is now between Matthias and James of Alphaeus — says: "Come to the place that God has reserved for you and with your justice cancel the memory of Judas, helping us, your brothers, to accomplish the deeds Jesus told us to do. May the Grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be always with you."

He addresses all the others, dismissing them...

While the disciples disperse slowly through the secondary exit, the apostles go back into the house taking Matthias to Mary, Who is engrossed in prayer in Her room, so that the new apostle may receive the word of greeting and election also from the Mother of God.

 

[marks]

that gives a more detailed look into the stories we read about in the Bible

That is a big red flag to me. I'll stick with the Bible itself, thank you!

Much love!

 

[Sigma]

That is a big red flag to me.

How so?

 

[marks]

How so?

Do you consider this to be new revelation that adds to the Bible?

Much love!

 

[Sigma]

Do you consider this to be new revelation that adds to the Bible?

The Bible is made up of multiple books and Rev. 22:18 refers to the Book of Revelation specifically.

In the Book of John we read, "But there are also many other things which Jesus did, which, if they were written in detail, I expect that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written" (21:35). Obviously, his words are hyperbolic, but he's saying there's many things Jesus did that isn't written, and implying there's more detail regarding even what little we do know.

The excerpt in post #6 from the book The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. V is an expounding on the scene of the election of Matthias described briefly in the book Acts of the Apostles. This scene was shown in full to Maria Valtorta by Jesus on April 26th, 1947, which she described in more detail.

 

[marks]

The Bible is made up of multiple books and Rev. 22:18 refers to the Book of Revelation specifically.

In the Book of John we read, "But there are also many other things which Jesus did, which, if they were written in detail, I expect that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written" (21:35). Obviously, his words are hyperbolic, but he's saying there's many things Jesus did that isn't written, and implying there's more detail regarding even what little we do know.

The excerpt in post #6 from the book The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. V is an expounding on the scene of the election of Matthias described briefly in the book Acts of the Apostles. This scene was shown in full to Maria Valtorta by Jesus on April 26th, 1947, which she described in more detail.

So that's a yes? This IS new revelation, and adds to the Bible?

Much love!

 

[Sigma]

So that's a yes? This IS new revelation, and adds to the Bible?

Much love!

Again, no, and again you err in applying Rev. 22:18 to all the books that make up the Bible, when it only pertains to the Book of Revelation. Also, again, the excerpt in post #6 from the book The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. V is an expounding on the scene of the election of Matthias described briefly in the book Acts of the Apostles. An expounding on a preexisting event in a book in the Bible isn't adding a new event.

Also, again, as mentioned in the Book of John, there's many things Jesus did not written in books. So, would you say the things His apostle said He did that aren't included in books, including the ones that make up the Bible, are "new revelations"?

 

[marks]

and again you err in applying Rev. 22:18 to all the books that make up the Bible, when it only pertains to the Book of Revelation

You are making an assumption that this is what I'm referring to, I'm not. I'm only asking what you think. If this should be thought of the same as Scripture, divinely inspired, authorative, like that.

So then your answer is that no, the poem of the Man-God is NOT Bible, not divinely inspired, and not authorative. Is that right?

Also, again, the excerpt in post #6 from the book The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. V is an expounding on the scene of the election of Matthias described briefly in the book Acts of the Apostles.

That would be if it's real. But if it's not divinely inspired authoratative Scripture, then why would I pay attention to it?

Also, again, as mentioned in the Book of John, there's many things Jesus did not written in books. So, would you say the things His own apostle said He did didn't happen because they aren't included in the books that make up the Bible?

The poem of the Man-God was not written by the apostles, though, so I don't consider it as if it were.

Much love!

 

[marks]

An expounding on a preexisting event in a book in the Bible isn't adding a new event.

No, it's fictionalizing a true account, as I see it.

We could say that Jesus fed the 5000, but I have new info, that in fact Jesus . . . well, I can say here whatever I want, and say it's from Jesus, and who knows? And then I start to build doctrine based on my visions, and soon I have my own personal religion. Or so it seems to me.

including the ones that make up the Bible, are "new revelations"?

IF you are adding to what is written, they yes, it's purported "new revelation".

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

I don't know how, unless they're unaware of the following passage that explicitly names Judas Iscariot's replacement: "So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles." (Ac. 1:23-26)

That was the disciples decision not Gods . That’s why Jesus hand picked Paul. Jesus never instructed them to replace judas. There is no command from Him. Jesus actually told them to wait and do nothing until Pentecost in Acts 1.

 

[Sigma]

You are making an assumption that this is what I'm referring to, I'm not.

The way you were speaking before sounded like you were referring to Rev. 22:18, which is why I said what I did. You clarified yourself just now below:

I'm only asking what you think. If this should be thought of the same as Scripture, divinely inspired, authorative, like that.

I know that the scene of the election of Matthias was shown in full to Maria Valtorta by Jesus, which she described in more detail. Therefore, I consider her description of this scene as another real witness to it on April 26th, 1947 to be Scripture, divinely inspired, and authoritative, just as I do of the descriptions by those who were real witnesses to this scene thousands of years prior.

There's an intrinsic knowing of Truth that I feel when reading from the book The Poem of the Man-God, just as I feel when reading from the books that make up The Bible. The numerous testimonies and studies done by professionals in various fields, who've analyzed and tested the credibility of Maria Valtorta personally and her literary works further fortify my conviction. Below are just a few:

(i) The results from the mathematical analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:

In conclusion, what do these findings mean? That Maria Valtorta is such a good writer to be able to modulate the linguistic parameters in so many different ways and as a function of character of the plot and type of literary text, so as to cover almost the entire range of the Italian literature? Or that visions and dictations really occurred and she was only a mystical, very intelligent and talented “writing tool”? Of course, no answer grounded in science can be given to the latter question.

(ii) The results from the astronomical and meteorological analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:

It seems that she has written down observations and facts really happened at the time of Jesus’ life, as a real witness of them would have done. The question arises, unsolved from a point of view exclusively rational, how all this is possible because what Maria Valtorta writes down cannot, in any way, be traced back to her fantasy or to her astronomical and meteorological knowledge. In conclusion, if from one hand the scientific inquire has evidenced all the surprising and unexpected results reported and discussed in this paper, on the other hand our actual scientific knowledge cannot readily explain how these results are possible.

(iii) In David Webster, M.Div.'s chapter "Proof by Geography and Topography and Archaeology" of A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work, he relates:

An additional line of incontrovertible evidence (which Valtorta was encouraged by Jesus to include for the benefit of “the difficult doctors” of the Church) deals with the vast amount of geographical, climatic, agricultural, historical, astronomical, and cartographical information given in her work. Authorities in these fields have verified the accuracy of what she has reported with appropriate astonishment. Valtorta accurately identifies this agricultural and climatic information that is often unique to Palestine with the appropriate calendar period which she often specifically identifies. Without any evidence of planning and with hardly any corrections, Valtorta ends up with a perfectly flowing 3½ year story line with Jesus appropriately in Jerusalem and Judea for Passover and Pentecost in all four spring seasons, and at the Tabernacles in all three fall seasons of His ministry. Valtorta shows Jesus to have traversed the land of Palestine from one end to another in at least six cycles (some 4,000 miles), ministering in some 350 named locations, including places in Palestine known only to specialized archaeologists. Not once, however, does she have Jesus (or any one of the other 500 characters) in a place inconsistent with either the story line or distance or timing necessities.

(iv) In professional engineer Jean-François Lavère's The Valtorta Enigma, he writes:

The work [The Poem of the Man-God] overflows with exact data from the viewpoint of history, topography, architecture, geography, ethnology, chronology, etc. Furthermore, Maria Valtorta often provides precise details known only by some scholars, and in certain cases, she even records details totally unknown at the time she recorded them, and which archeology, history, or science have later confirmed.

No, it's fictionalizing a true account, as I see it.

We could say that Jesus fed the 5000, but I have new info, that in fact Jesus . . . well, I can say here whatever I want, and say it's from Jesus, and who knows? And then I start to build doctrine based on my visions, and soon I have my own personal religion. Or so it seems to me.

However, the excerpt in post #6 from the book The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. V that expounds on the scene of the election of Matthias doesn't change what little we know of the scene from the book the Acts of the Apostles. Also, Maria Valtorta never built a doctrine based on her visions, nor started her own personal religion.

IF you are adding to what is written, they yes, it's purported "new revelation".

Jesus's apostle John of Zebedee stated there's many things Jesus did that aren't written down. So, if Jesus instructed you to write down some of those things, you'd say that is "adding to what is written" and considered "new revelation". What do you mean by that?

 

[Sigma]

That was the disciples decision not Gods . That’s why Jesus hand picked Paul. Jesus never instructed them to replace judas. There is no command from Him.

Incorrect. Just as it was God's decision to choose His twelve apostles and Paul, it was His decision to replace His apostle Judas Iscariot: "So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles." (Ac. 1:23-26)

 

[marks]

Jesus's apostle John of Zebedee stated there's many things Jesus did that aren't written down. So, if Jesus instructed you to write down some of those things, you'd say that is "adding to what is written" and considered "new revelation". What do you mean by that?

Just because there were things not written doesn't mean someone can go back in and fill them in later though.

I guess we all have to decide for ourselves what we believe as coming from God. I'm sticking to the Bible.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

Incorrect. Just as it was God's decision to choose His twelve apostles and Paul, it was His decision to replace His apostle Judas Iscariot: "So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles." (Ac. 1:23-26)

Jesus never commanded them to cast lots and Jesus PERSONALLY HIMSELF chose in PERSON each one of His Apostles.

Now show me where Jesus picked him like He did with the original 12 and Paul ?

 

[marks]

Jesus never commanded them to cast lots and Jesus PERSONALLY HIMSELF chose in PERSON each one of His Apostles.

Now show me where Jesus picked him like He did with the original 12 and Paul ?

I'm curious, what do you think about Paul referring to "the 12"? Doesn't that mean that Paul agreed that those men were "the 12"?

Much love!