The twelfth Apostle

[Sigma]

Thats not what I said. Didn't need your criteria.

You said Paul didn't need to consider himself an apostle. Where did you read that?

 

[dev553344]

While Many count Paul to be the replacement for Judas Iscariot, Paul himself did not.

1 Corinthians 15:1-6 KJV
1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6) After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Paul did not include himself among the twelve.

1 Corinthians 15:7-8 KJV
7) After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8) And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles, and was not counted as one of the 12.

Much love!

Thanks for the information. When you said "12th Apostle" I got all this imagery of something else like the 13th warrior, bad luck number really.

 

[ChristisGod]

I wouldn't remove any of the books of the Bible.

The one who wrote the largest part of the New Testament wasn't even neccessarily a Jew, and was not called an apostle, that being Luke. Let's leave his books there also.

Much love!

Paul wrote 13 for sure and some think 14 of the 27 NT books. So its a minimum of 48% of the NT books were written by Paul. Luke wrote Acts and Luke. that is 2/27.

hope this helps !!!

 

[marks]

Paul wrote 13 for sure and some think 14 of the 27 NT books. So its a minimum of 48% of the NT books were written by Paul. Luke wrote Acts and Luke. that is 2/27.

hope this helps !!!

Luke wrote more by volume. If you count by books, Paul. If you count by letters/words, Luke.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

The point being Paul not the 12 is who God clearly used moreso than all the other Apostles. Luke attests to that fact in Acts and so does Peter in 2 Peter 3: 14-18.

 

[marks]

The point being Paul not the 12 is who God clearly used moreso than all the other Apostles. Luke attests to that fact in Acts and so does Peter in 2 Peter 3: 14-18.

Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles. You didn't give where in Acts, but I can quote the Peter passage,

2 Peter 3:14-18 KJV
14) Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17) Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18) But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Does this passage show God using Paul "more" than the 12? Only that some of what Paul wrote can be hard to understand. I can attest to that!

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles. You didn't give where in Acts, but I can quote the Peter passage,

2 Peter 3:14-18 KJV
14) Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17) Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18) But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Does this passage show God using Paul "more" than the 12? Only that some of what Paul wrote can be hard to understand. I can attest to that!

Much love!

And he called Pauls writings Scripture- on par or equal with the OT. And Peter was corrected by Paul and confronted by him for being a hypocrite.

 

[Sigma]

So, I'll leave it with what I wrote in post 44.

Much love!

Post #44 doesn't answer my question: If I start a thread about Maria Valtorta, will you quote exactly what you read about Adam and Eve in the book The Poem of the Man-God, and explain why you think it contradicts what we read in the Book of Genesis? Or, do you not want to back up your claim?

 

[Sigma]

@marks, it seems you're not going to answer post #68. I didn't think so.

 

[marks]

@marks, it seems you're not going to answer post #68. I didn't think so.

As I said, I'm not really interested in an extended discussion about this. I've satisfied myself about the "Poem". I'm not concerned with convincing you of anything other than what you already think. Others can look for themself.

Much love!

 

[Sigma]

As I said, I'm not really interested in an extended discussion about this.

I didn't ask for an extended discussion. I just asked if you'd quote what you supposedly read about Adam and Eve in a different thread. The fact you refuse to do that speaks volumes.

 

[marks]

I didn't ask for an extended discussion. I just asked if you'd quote what you supposedly read about Adam and Eve in a different thread. The fact you refuse to do that speaks volumes.

It means I've already spent as much time reading that as I care to. I don't find it adds anything to me, and takes up time. That's all there is to it.

Much love!

 

[Sigma]

It means I've already spent as much time reading that as I care to. I don't find it adds anything to me, and takes up time. That's all there is to it.

Much love!

Since you refuse to quote in a different thread what you supposedly read about Adam and Eve from The Poem of the Man-God, you refuse to back up your claim that what you supposedly read about them contradicts what we read in Genesis. I thought so.

 

[MatthewG]

In my opinion, Paul was the one that the Lord chose.

Peter did cast lots; but I remember from reading Samuel.

The high priest had to do the choosing, method they went by.

While people may disagree with me; The Lord called Paul. He was very humbled by the Lord.

“Now the Lord said to Samuel, “How long are you going to mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him from being king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and go; I will send you to Jesse the Bethlehemite, because I have chosen a king for Myself among his sons.” But Samuel said, “How can I go? When Saul hears about it, he will kill me.” But the Lord said, “Take a heifer with you and say, ‘I have come to sacrifice to the Lord.’ And you shall invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will let you know what you shall do; and you shall anoint for Me the one whom I designate to you.” So Samuel did what the Lord told him, and he came to Bethlehem. Then the elders of the city came trembling to meet him and said, “Do you come in peace?” And he said, “In peace; I have come to sacrifice to the Lord. Consecrate yourselves and come with me to the sacrifice.” He also consecrated Jesse and his sons and invited them to the sacrifice. When they entered, he looked at Eliab and thought, “Surely the Lord’s anointed is standing before Him.” But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God does not see as man sees, since man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” Then Jesse called Abinadab and had him pass before Samuel. But he said, “The Lord has not chosen this one, either.” Next Jesse had Shammah pass by. And he said, “The Lord has not chosen this one, either.” So Jesse had seven of his sons pass before Samuel. But Samuel said to Jesse, “The Lord has not chosen these.” Then Samuel said to Jesse, “Are these all the boys?” And he said, “The youngest is still left, but behold, he is tending the sheep.” So Samuel said to Jesse, “Send word and bring him; for we will not take our places at the table until he comes here.””
‭‭1 Samuel‬ ‭16‬:‭1‬-‭11‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 Samuel 16:1-11 Now the LORD said to Samuel, “How long are you going to mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him from being king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and go; I will send you to Jesse the Bethlehemite | New American Standard Bible -

Now the LORD said to Samuel, “How long are you going to mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him from being king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and go; I will send you to Jesse the Bethlehemite

bible.com

“Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them in shackles to Jerusalem. Now as he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told to you what you must do.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭9‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Acts 9:1-6 Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any belonging | New American Standard Bible - NASB (

Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any belonging

bible.com

“then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭7‬-‭11‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

bible.com

Apostle



one who is sent off

An apostle (/əˈpɒsəl/), in its literal sense, is an emissary. The word is derived from Ancient Greek ἀπόστολος (apóstolos), literally "one who is sent off", itself derived from the verb ἀποστέλλειν (apostéllein), "to send off".


We never really hear from Matthias ever again.

 

[Bob Estey]

While Many count Paul to be the replacement for Judas Iscariot, Paul himself did not.

1 Corinthians 15:1-6 KJV
1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6) After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Paul did not include himself among the twelve.

1 Corinthians 15:7-8 KJV
7) After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8) And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles, and was not counted as one of the 12.

Much love!

Technically I agree, but in the broader scheme of things, Paul seems no less important than the original eleven, wouldn't you say?

 

[ScottA]

The way you were speaking before sounded like you were referring to Rev. 22:18, which is why I said what I did. You clarified yourself just now below:



I know that the scene of the election of Matthias was shown in full to Maria Valtorta by Jesus, which she described in more detail. Therefore, I consider her description of this scene as another real witness to it on April 26th, 1947 to be Scripture, divinely inspired, and authoritative, just as I do of the descriptions by those who were real witnesses to this scene thousands of years prior.

There's an intrinsic knowing of Truth that I feel when reading from the book The Poem of the Man-God, just as I feel when reading from the books that make up The Bible. The numerous testimonies and studies done by professionals in various fields, who've analyzed and tested the credibility of Maria Valtorta personally and her literary works further fortify my conviction. Below are just a few:

(i) The results from the mathematical analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:



(ii) The results from the astronomical and meteorological analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:



(iii) In David Webster, M.Div.'s chapter "Proof by Geography and Topography and Archaeology" of A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work, he relates:



(iv) In professional engineer Jean-François Lavère's The Valtorta Enigma, he writes:





However, the excerpt in post #6 from the book The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. V that expounds on the scene of the election of Matthias doesn't change what little we know of the scene from the book the Acts of the Apostles. Also, Maria Valtorta never built a doctrine based on her visions, nor started her own personal religion.



Jesus's apostle John of Zebedee stated there's many things Jesus did that aren't written down. So, if Jesus instructed you to write down some of those things, you'd say that is "adding to what is written" and considered "new revelation". What do you mean by that?

Just because there were things not written doesn't mean someone can go back in and fill them in later though.

I guess we all have to decide for ourselves what we believe as coming from God. I'm sticking to the Bible.

Much love!

Jesus declared that He has "told us all things." Past tense. Meaning that Revelation 22:18 does indeed apply-- however, there is an exception...and it is huge!

First of all, it is important to know and acknowledge that the Bible and what is included or excluded is God's (the Word of God's) providence alone. Although written by men and even seemingly includes much of their own thoughts, none of it is of any man alone, but has been intentionally determined by God--alone--every jot and tittle, without whom man can do nothing.

The exception then, is written and foretold to be the "finish" of "the mystery of God as He declared to His servants the prophets" when the seventh angel is about to sound.

Which is to say, what has been written has somewhat remained a "mystery", and yet would be finished--without adding or taking away, but revealed. This was modeled by Jesus who claimed His words (the scriptures) "are spirit", adding, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." The test of which is also given as the Spirit. The model of which was His interpretation of the parables, which were a small example with an object which was not the subject, of a larger circumstance regarding the actual subject.

Then came tongues. Which also required spiritual understanding or interpretation.

In other words, the scriptures were given in parable as small examples of the bigger reality of what was being said or written or literally lived by those who recorded them, which afterward would be revealed like the parables or tongues. Which was to be and is, the work of the Spirit, and began at Pentecost.

But what of "private interpretation?" This does not mean that one cannot biblically receive revelation from God. It just means that revelations regarding the body of Christ are for the whole body. Which is not to say that anyone can rightly claim anything that spews from God knows where, or that there are not many false prophets. Indeed, just as it is written, there are many.

All of which means, we are to as much as expect every mystery regarding the scriptures to be revealed during these times, and because of false prophets every spirit should be tested. Nothing new.

 

[ScottA]

I'm curious, what do you think about Paul referring to "the 12"? Doesn't that mean that Paul agreed that those men were "the 12"?

Much love!

Paul didn't completely mix it up (himself with the 12), because Jesus didn't.

At this point we should all understand that Jesus and the cross was and is the apex of all things. Everything before was before, and everything after was after: "to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

The 12 then were chosen and sent under Jesus' ministry first to the house of Israel, while Paul was distinctly sent to the gentiles (or the "other fold" which Jesus "must also bring"). Even so, all who are sent by Jesus are rightly called apostles.

 

[marks]

Technically I agree, but in the broader scheme of things, Paul seems no less important than the original eleven, wouldn't you say?

Important? I think he, and the 12 were all important. It's Scripture, that Paul was not less than the other apostles, I think.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

Even so, all who are sent by Jesus are rightly called apostles.

All of these in the following list, are "sent" by Jesus.. Which is the "call" into the Ministry

Apostle (specific type of Missionary)
Prophet
Pastor (Bishop,Minister)
Evangelist
Teacher
Minstrel

The Apostolic ministry is unique...

Notice that the Book of Acts...Is the Acts of the Apostles.
its not the Acts of the Christian...and many denominations try to pretend they are "apostolic", and they are not.

Here is what separates the Apostle from the rest..

2nd Corinthians 12:12 = "The SIGNS of an Apostle".

See that?

That is SUPERNATURAL Manifestations of the Power of God.....Its the ability to do miracles.., as PROOF the person is an Apostle.

I'll show the reader a verse, that is often misused, that actually shows Paul doing these signs..

Hebrews 6.... "tasted the heavenly gift"....

And what is that?
That is a group of Christ hating Jews, who are watching an Apostle perform "signs' for them... "heavenly gifts"... "signs of an Apostle".

Why?

"Because JEWS require a SIGN".. and "SIGNS are for the JEWS"...

So, all over the "Acts of the Apostles" the Apostles are producing "signs of an Apostle".

 

[Sigma]

Jesus declared that He has "told us all things." Past tense. Meaning that Revelation 22:18 does indeed apply...

The Bible is made up of multiple books, two of which are the Book of John and the Book of Revelation. Jn. 14:26 is from the Book of John and in it Jesus is speaking to the apostles telling them the Holy Spirit "will teach you all things, and remind you of all that I said to you." Rev. 22:18 is from the Book of Revelation, and thus it refers to that book specifically, not all the books that make up the Bible. And, with Maria Valtorta's work no addition was made to revelation, but only the gaps, brought about by natural causes and by supernatural will, were filled in.

All of which means, we are to as much as expect every mystery regarding the scriptures to be revealed during these times, and because of false prophets every spirit should be tested. Nothing new. Indeed, just as it is written, there are many.

Maria Valtorta received dictations and visions from Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and an angel named Azariah. She was their "pen" who wrote what she heard and saw at their behest. I've read and own all her literary works. Jesus says you shall know them by their fruits and that an evil tree cannot bear good fruit. I and numerous others recognize that her writings come from Jesus and other heavenly persons.

You should read the testimonies and actual studies done by professionals in various fields, who've analyzed and tested the credibility of Maria Valtorta personally and her literary works. Below are just a few:

(i) The results from the mathematical analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:

In conclusion, what do these findings mean? That Maria Valtorta is such a good writer to be able to modulate the linguistic parameters in so many different ways and as a function of character of the plot and type of literary text, so as to cover almost the entire range of the Italian literature? Or that visions and dictations really occurred and she was only a mystical, very intelligent and talented “writing tool”? Of course, no answer grounded in science can be given to the latter question.

(ii) The results from the astronomical and meteorological analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:

It seems that she has written down observations and facts really happened at the time of Jesus’ life, as a real witness of them would have done. The question arises, unsolved from a point of view exclusively rational, how all this is possible because what Maria Valtorta writes down cannot, in any way, be traced back to her fantasy or to her astronomical and meteorological knowledge. In conclusion, if from one hand the scientific inquire has evidenced all the surprising and unexpected results reported and discussed in this paper, on the other hand our actual scientific knowledge cannot readily explain how these results are possible.

(iii) In David Webster, M.Div.'s chapter "Proof by Geography and Topography and Archaeology" of A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work, he relates:

An additional line of incontrovertible evidence (which Valtorta was encouraged by Jesus to include for the benefit of “the difficult doctors” of the Church) deals with the vast amount of geographical, climatic, agricultural, historical, astronomical, and cartographical information given in her work. Authorities in these fields have verified the accuracy of what she has reported with appropriate astonishment. Valtorta accurately identifies this agricultural and climatic information that is often unique to Palestine with the appropriate calendar period which she often specifically identifies. Without any evidence of planning and with hardly any corrections, Valtorta ends up with a perfectly flowing 3½ year story line with Jesus appropriately in Jerusalem and Judea for Passover and Pentecost in all four spring seasons, and at the Tabernacles in all three fall seasons of His ministry. Valtorta shows Jesus to have traversed the land of Palestine from one end to another in at least six cycles (some 4,000 miles), ministering in some 350 named locations, including places in Palestine known only to specialized archaeologists. Not once, however, does she have Jesus (or any one of the other 500 characters) in a place inconsistent with either the story line or distance or timing necessities.

(iv) In professional engineer Jean-François Lavère's The Valtorta Enigma, he writes:

The work [The Poem of the Man-God] overflows with exact data from the viewpoint of history, topography, architecture, geography, ethnology, chronology, etc. Furthermore, Maria Valtorta often provides precise details known only by some scholars, and in certain cases, she even records details totally unknown at the time she recorded them, and which archeology, history, or science have later confirmed.