The (Two Witnesses) Revelation 11:3-12 Will Be Literal Prophets Returned, In Literal Physical Bodies

[Marty fox]

@Marty fox

I understand that Truth and Eqe will disagree, but please hear me out.
The verse in question:
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Problem #1: If you take this literally, when was Christ slain inside a city or on a street? He was actually slain outside of the city on a hill.
Problem #2: If you think this is Jerusalem, you have to contend with the fact that "the great city" is referenced 8 times in Revelation as Babylon and not Jerusalem. (Revelation 14:8; 16:19; 17:18; 18:10; 18:16; 18:18; 18:19 and 18:21)
Problem #3: Jamieson notes, "the oldest manuscripts omit "the great" before city, so that it forms no exception. It must, therefore, have an anticipatory reference to mystical Babylon".
Problem #4: Jerusalem is never called "the great city" in Revelation.

So, if you take the 2 "men" as literally 2 people, you must take their death as literal, on a literal street and in a literal city which Christ was crucified in where a literal beast ascends out of a literal bottomless pit when the 2 prophets disallow literal rain from the sky to feed the literal plants and grass. That is alot of stuff to contend with.

But, recognition that its speaking of Babylon and the 2 witnesses resemble the whole body of Christ preaching and coming in power of the law (Moses typified) and the prophets (Elijah typified) and their being silenced in that spiritual city. What does scripture teach about Christ crucified? as Christ lives in the church, "the perverting of his doctrine and his people, would be, in fact, an act of crucifying the Lord afresh". Hebrews 6:6

I agree with what you are saying but mystery Babylon the great is Jerusalem in the first century. I also see the two witnesses as the law and the prophets who pointed to Jesus. They mirror Jesus life.

 

[Marty fox]

I realize some believe this and as you state above, some think it’s Rome. But I tend to agree with others, it’s not any literal city. It’s spiritual based and our coming out of her is spiritual based. God doesn’t need his people to come out of a Literal Jerusalem. Every city has wicked in it, scripture teaches that plainly.

Actually God did call the Christian Jews out of Jerusalem just before she was destroyed by Rome.

 

[ewq1938]

I agree with what you are saying but mystery Babylon the great is Jerusalem in the first century. I also see the two witnesses as the law and the prophets who pointed to Jesus. They mirror Jesus life.

The written law and prophets aren't going to be murdered and have bodies that lie in the streets of Jerusalem, then 3.5 days latyer stand up in a resurrection and rise into heaven. The very idea of your type of interpretation is nonsensical and impossible.

 

[Marty fox]

I never said I believed it to be Rome. Please read my words carefully. And I don't teach some reformed theology. I don't know where you get this from.


The Jews were not the only ones whose custom of grieving was casting dust on their head. That was the custom of many nations in that time. Honestly, look up the historical context. All it does is demonstrate mourning. That could be anyone. Big smiles!


No, it hasn't. The ones guilty in Revelation 18:24 of the blood of God's people is said to be in Rev 17,
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
and it is said of her in Rev 17:18:
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Scripture spells it out for us verbatim. If you read my initial point, you would have noticed problems arise when literal Jerusalem is taken as the identity. You have to explain how Christ is crucified on a street in Jerusalem when he wasn't. Youd have to explain how Jerusalem is never considered a great city in size compared to other cities. Or how Jerusalem is not called "the great city" in Revelation.

Let’s see Jesus tie Babylon the great to Jerusalem

Revelation 18:24
In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

And Matthew 23:33-36
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abelto the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

Heres a question who were the only people to kill both the prophets and the saints?

Apostate Israel

 

[Marty fox]

The written law and prophets aren't going to be murdered and have bodies that lie in the streets of Jerusalem, then 3.5 days latyer stand up in a resurrection and rise into heaven. The very idea of your type of interpretation is nonsensical and impossible.

It’s symbolic of them mirrowing Jesus life

 

[ewq1938]

It’s symbolic of them mirrowing Jesus life

No, it's not symbolic and they don't mirror the life of Jesus. They are two men, not some weird symbolism of books of the OT.

 

[Marty fox]

And Lazarus was raised from his grave and given a permanent incorruptible physical body, and ascended to Paradise, and you don't believe or accept those points given by Jesus.

I have no idea what you mean here. When did Jesus say that or when did I say that I don’t accept it?

Do you agree with my point?

 

[ewq1938]

Let’s see Jesus tie Babylon the great to Jerusalem

Revelation 18:24
In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

And Matthew 23:33-36
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abelto the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

Heres a question who were the only people to kill both the prophets and the saints?

Apostate Israel

They didn't kill Abel but his blood would come upon them. Rome killed many of the saints and prophets too, and they aren't Apostate Israel. And, none of this is Jerusalem.

 

[Marty fox]

They didn't kill Abel but his blood would come upon them. Rome killed many of the saints and prophets too, and they aren't Apostate Israel. And, none of this is Jerusalem.

Back then Rome killed the saints but not the prophets

 

[ewq1938]

Back then Rome killed the saints but not the prophets

Most if not all were prophets but the prophecy doesn't require any of them to be prophets.

I'm just proving it wasn't Apostate Israel that killed all of them so they can't be identified as Babylon, nor can Jerusalem which is called Holy in Rev 11. Babylon was never holy nor called that.

 

[Marty fox]

Most if not all were prophets but the prophecy doesn't require any of them to be prophets.

I'm just proving it wasn't Apostate Israel that killed all of them so they can't be identified as Babylon, nor can Jerusalem which is called Holy in Rev 11. Babylon was never holy nor called that.

Actually it does because it actually says prophets in revelation 18 and Matthew 23

Jesus did call Jerusalem Holy but a whore

 

[ewq1938]

Actually it doe because it actually says prophets in revelation 18 and Matthew 23

That's not all it says.

Jesus did call Jerusalem Holy but a whore

There is no such thing as a holy whore, nor was Jerusalem called a whore.

 

[quietthinker]

The (Two Witnesses) will be literal prophets returned, that bring literal plagues upon this literal earth, they have physical bodies that die, that lay in a literal street, as a literal world watches in celebration of their deaths

You will closely note below, the two olive branches and golden pipes represent that seen in Revelation 5:8 & 15:5-8 below, the 7 golden (vials/pipes) in last plagues will be emptied upon the world through the (Two Witnesses) who have all power over the literal plagues seen in the Revelation

You will closely note these two anointed ones empty the golden oil out of "Themselves"

The "Golden Oil" represents the "Golden Vials" full of the seven last plagues

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
 
Revelation 5:8KJV
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 15:5-8KJV
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

You will closely note that the (Two Witnesses) stand before God of the earth in verse 4 below, also seen in Zechariah 4:14 above

You will closely note that the (Two Witnesses) have literal power over the literal plagues upon the world, they have physical bodies that die, and lay in a literal street, as a literal world watches in celebration

Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

If the olive trees and the candlesticks are metaphorical, why not the two prophets of which there are numerous texts available to indicate this?

 

[Marty fox]

That's not all it says.




There is no such thing as a holy whore, nor was Jerusalem called a whore.

It was a typo I edited it I meant to say not holy but a whore

 

[ewq1938]

It was a typo I edited it I meant to say not holy but a whore

Jerusalem is called holy, further proving that city is not Babylon.

 

[ewq1938]

If the olive trees and the candlesticks are metaphorical, why not the two prophets of which there are numerous texts available to indicate this?

Besides that is obviously not metaphoric language? Besides the metaphor being two olive trees, thus the two prophets is the plain understanding?

In Rev horns are metaphors for kings. Should we further metaphorize kings into something else? That's what you are suggesting here about the prophets.

metaphor -two olive trees
actual -two prophets

 

[quietthinker]

Besides that is obviously not metaphoric language? Besides the metaphor being two olive trees, thus the two prophets is the plain understanding?

In Rev horns are metaphors for kings. Should we further metaphorize kings into something else? That's what you are suggesting here about the prophets.

metaphor -two olive trees
actual -two prophets

Herein is the challenge to understand well. Get it wrong and you're and you're up the creek in a barbed wire canoe; get it right and you're on the road to wisdom

 

[Truth7t7]

If the olive trees and the candlesticks are metaphorical, why not the two prophets of which there are numerous texts available to indicate this?

1.) Scripture below clearly states the (Two Witnesses) have literal physical bodies that die "Their Dead Bodies", and they stand upon literal physical feet "They Stood Upon Their Feet"?

2.) Scripture below clearly teaches a literal world is watching in celebration of their deaths, exchanging literal gifts?

How do you justify putting the literal seen below into symbolic metaphor?

Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[quietthinker]

1.) Scripture below clearly states the (Two Witnesses) have literal physical bodies that die "Their Dead Bodies", and they stand upon literal physical feet "They Stood Upon Their Feet"?

2.) It also teaches a literal world is watching in celebration of their deaths, exchanging gifts?

How do you justify putting the literal seen into symbolic metaphor?

Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

it's all metaphor.....the whole lot. The language is drawing on events/ practices in the OT

 

[Truth7t7]

it's all metaphor.....the whole lot. The language is drawing on events/ practices in the OT

You claim the scripture below is metaphor, please explain your claims made, what does it mean in Revelation 11:3-12 below?

Zechariah 4:12-14 uses metaphor, then it explains and interprets the metaphor "These Are The Two Anointed Ones" and uses the personal pronoun "Themselves"

Zechariah 4:12-14KJV
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Personal Pronouns:They, Them, Their?

1.) Scripture below clearly states the (Two Witnesses) have literal physical bodies that die "Their Dead Bodies", and they stand upon literal physical feet "They Stood Upon Their Feet"?

2.) Scripture below clearly teaches a literal world is watching in celebration of their deaths, exchanging literal gifts?

How do you justify putting the literal seen below into symbolic metaphor?

Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.