The (Two Witnesses) Revelation 11:3-12 Will Be Literal Prophets Returned, In Literal Physical Bodies

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Marty fox

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Not one word in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus you provide, revokes the literal two witnesses in physical living bodies seen below in Revelation 11:7-12

That's correct, you deny the scripture before your eyes, literal physical bodies that die, that lay dead in a literal street on earth, as literal humans on this earth are watching and celebrating their death

Try putting that into reformed symbolic allegory in fulfillment, big smiles!

Jesus Is The Lord

Revelation 11:7-12KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Sure it does

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
 

Truth7t7

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That is exactually what Jesus is saying in the verses above. There will be no special treatment no people from the dead coming back to warn people they have the law and the prophets which all pointed to Jesus and that is all that they need and will get.

If they rejected Jesus when He came back from the dead why would they believe anyone else?
The parable of the Rich Man doesn't state what you claim, your claims are self driven in denial of the "Literal Physical" seen in Revelation 11:7-12 below

That's correct, you deny the scripture before your eyes, literal physical bodies that die, that lay dead in a literal street on earth, as literal humans on this earth are watching and celebrating their death

Try putting that into reformed symbolic allegory in fulfillment, big smiles!

Jesus Is The Lord

Revelation 11:7-12KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
 

Marty fox

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The parable of the Rich Man doesn't state what you claim, your claims are self driven in denial of the "Literal Physical" seen in Revelation 11:7-12 below

That's correct, you deny the scripture before your eyes, literal physical bodies that die, that lay dead in a literal street on earth, as literal humans on this earth are watching and celebrating their death

Try putting that into reformed symbolic allegory in fulfillment, big smiles!

Jesus Is The Lord

Revelation 11:7-12KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
So what do you think the message of the parable is?
 

Truth7t7

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So what do you think the message of the parable is?
So what do you think the message of Revelation 11:7-12 is below, how do you explain physical bodies seen, and a world watching in celebration?

Revelation 11:7-12KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
 

Timtofly

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So what do you think the message of the parable is?
This was not a parable.

This was the OT economy. Do you follow Jesus because of what was written in the OT, Moses and the prophets? Or do you follow Jesus because of what is written in the NT, the death, burial, and resurrection?

When Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom, the Cross had not happened yet. Many have turned to Christ from knowing the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. So "though one rose from the Dead" does not apply to those living after the Cross. We know that Jesus rose from the grave, and that is the hope of every believer. Abraham was speaking about those living prior to the Cross in the OT economy.
 

ScottA

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The (Two Witnesses) will be literal prophets returned, that bring literal plagues upon this literal earth, they have physical bodies that die, that lay in a literal street, as a literal world watches in celebration of their deaths
If you believe that all these things are "literal" rather than "created" (as it is written) as clay before the Potter whom is God...then you are wrong from the start.

To the contrary, all those would-be "literal" things are not literal--God and the kingdom are what is literal. And of would-be "literal" men...what do the scriptures say, but that they are a mere "image" of Him who is literal?

View God rather as "literal", rather than the things of this world.
 

Truth7t7

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To the contrary, all those would-be "literal" things are not literal--God and the kingdom are what is literal. And of would-be "literal" men...what do the scriptures say, but that they are a mere "image" of Him who is literal?

View God rather as "literal", rather than the things of this world.
Your claims are as if one was in a Metaphysical New Age Group chanting a Mantra

God is literal, suggesting everything else is a mere ghost of God, "Sure"

I'm pecking keys on a literal electronic device, in a literal world, thinking about eating literal food to feed a physical hungry body

Scott the more I read, the deeper the ball is flying out in left field

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord
 

Marty fox

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This was not a parable.

This was the OT economy. Do you follow Jesus because of what was written in the OT, Moses and the prophets? Or do you follow Jesus because of what is written in the NT, the death, burial, and resurrection?

When Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom, the Cross had not happened yet. Many have turned to Christ from knowing the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. So "though one rose from the Dead" does not apply to those living after the Cross. We know that Jesus rose from the grave, and that is the hope of every believer. Abraham was speaking about those living prior to the Cross in the OT economy.
Jesus was saying that even if He rose from the dead apostate Israel still wouldn’t believe in Him and he was right.
 
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Marty fox

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So what do you think the message of Revelation 11:7-12 is below, how do you explain physical bodies seen, and a world watching in celebration?

Revelation 11:7-12KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
You only seam to answer questions with questions why not just answer them?
 

No Pre-TB

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@Marty fox

I understand that Truth and Eqe will disagree, but please hear me out.
The verse in question:
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Problem #1: If you take this literally, when was Christ slain inside a city or on a street? He was actually slain outside of the city on a hill.
Problem #2: If you think this is Jerusalem, you have to contend with the fact that "the great city" is referenced 8 times in Revelation as Babylon and not Jerusalem. (Revelation 14:8; 16:19; 17:18; 18:10; 18:16; 18:18; 18:19 and 18:21)
Problem #3: Jamieson notes, "the oldest manuscripts omit "the great" before city, so that it forms no exception. It must, therefore, have an anticipatory reference to mystical Babylon".
Problem #4: Jerusalem is never called "the great city" in Revelation.

So, if you take the 2 "men" as literally 2 people, you must take their death as literal, on a literal street and in a literal city which Christ was crucified in where a literal beast ascends out of a literal bottomless pit when the 2 prophets disallow literal rain from the sky to feed the literal plants and grass. That is alot of stuff to contend with.

But, recognition that its speaking of Babylon and the 2 witnesses resemble the whole body of Christ preaching and coming in power of the law (Moses typified) and the prophets (Elijah typified) and their being silenced in that spiritual city. What does scripture teach about Christ crucified? as Christ lives in the church, "the perverting of his doctrine and his people, would be, in fact, an act of crucifying the Lord afresh". Hebrews 6:6
 
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Truth7t7

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@Marty fox

I understand that Truth and Eqe will disagree, but please hear me out.
The verse in question:
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Problem #1: If you take this literally, when was Christ slain inside a city or on a street? He was actually slain outside of the city on a hill.
Problem #2: If you think this is Jerusalem, you have to contend with the fact that "the great city" is referenced 8 times in Revelation as Babylon and not Jerusalem. (Revelation 14:8; 16:19; 17:18; 18:10; 18:16; 18:18; 18:19 and 18:21)
Problem #3: Jamieson notes, "the oldest manuscripts omit "the great" before city, so that it forms no exception. It must, therefore, have an anticipatory reference to mystical Babylon".
Problem #4: Jerusalem is never called "the great city" in Revelation.

So, if you take the 2 "men" as literally 2 people, you must take their death as literal, on a literal street and in a literal city which Christ was crucified in where a literal beast ascends out of a literal bottomless pit when the 2 prophets disallow literal rain from the sky to feed the literal plants and grass. That is alot of stuff to contend with.

But, recognition that its speaking of Babylon and the 2 witnesses resemble the whole body of Christ preaching and coming in power of the law (Moses typified) and the prophets (Elijah typified) and their being silenced in that spiritual city. What does scripture teach about Christ crucified? as Christ lives in the church, "the perverting of his doctrine and his people, would be, in fact, an act of crucifying the Lord afresh". Hebrews 6:6
(Jerusalem) Is The Whore, Mystery Babylon The Great.

The Levitical High Priest Dressing represents "The Woman", that is dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, and precious stones as seen below

(Revelation) 17:4KJV

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Yes "The Woman", The Levitical High Priest, Dressed In Purple, Scarlet, Gold, And Precious Stones

(Exodus) 28:15-20KJV
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

(Revelation) 17:9KJV

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

The Roman Empire didnt exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood seen below, Jerusalem did.

(Revelation) 18:24KJV

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

(Matthew) 23:29-37KJV
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jerusalem (The Woman) that (Great City) as seen below, Jerusalem where Jesus Christ was crucified

Revelation 17:18AKJV

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Revelation 11:8AKJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jews/Hebrews cast dust upon their heads, weeping for the (Great City) Jerusalem


Revelation 18:19AKJV
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
 
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No Pre-TB

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(Jerusalem) Is The Whore, Mystery Babylon The Great.
I realize some believe this and as you state above, some think it’s Rome. But I tend to agree with others, it’s not any literal city. It’s spiritual based and our coming out of her is spiritual based. God doesn’t need his people to come out of a Literal Jerusalem. Every city has wicked in it, scripture teaches that plainly.
 

Truth7t7

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I realize some believe this and as you state above, some think it’s Rome. But I tend to agree with others, it’s not any literal city. It’s spiritual based and our coming out of her is spiritual based. God doesn’t need his people to come out of a Literal Jerusalem. Every city has wicked in it, scripture teaches that plainly.
Can't be Rome, as you and others in reformed theology teach and believe, Rome didn't exist to kill the prophets

Are Jews going to cast dust upon their heads as is their customs in grieving,, for the destruction of (Babylon/Iraq) or (Rome) Big Smiles!

As has been clearly shown, Jerusalem is guilty of the prophets blood, Jerusalem is that Great City, its that simple

(Jerusalem) Is The Whore, Mystery Babylon The Great

Ezekiel 16:10-18KJV
10 I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.
11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.
12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.
13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.
14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God.
15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
16 And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.
17 Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,
18 And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.
 
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No Pre-TB

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Can't be Rome, as you and others in reformed theology teach and believe, Rome didn't exist to kill the prophets
I never said I believed it to be Rome. Please read my words carefully. And I don't teach some reformed theology. I don't know where you get this from.

Are Jews going to cast dust upon their heads as is their customs in grieving,, for the destruction of (Babylon/Iraq) or (Rome) Big Smiles!
The Jews were not the only ones whose custom of grieving was casting dust on their head. That was the custom of many nations in that time. Honestly, look up the historical context. All it does is demonstrate mourning. That could be anyone. Big smiles!

As has been clearly shown, Jerusalem is guilty of the prophets blood, Jerusalem is that Great City, its that simple
No, it hasn't. The ones guilty in Revelation 18:24 of the blood of God's people is said to be in Rev 17,
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
and it is said of her in Rev 17:18:
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Scripture spells it out for us verbatim. If you read my initial point, you would have noticed problems arise when literal Jerusalem is taken as the identity. You have to explain how Christ is crucified on a street in Jerusalem when he wasn't. Youd have to explain how Jerusalem is never considered a great city in size compared to other cities. Or how Jerusalem is not called "the great city" in Revelation.
 

Truth7t7

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I never said I believed it to be Rome. Please read my words carefully. And I don't teach some reformed theology. I don't know where you get this from.


The Jews were not the only ones whose custom of grieving was casting dust on their head. That was the custom of many nations in that time. Honestly, look up the historical context. All it does is demonstrate mourning. That could be anyone. Big smiles!


No, it hasn't. The ones guilty in Revelation 18:24 of the blood of God's people is said to be in Rev 17,
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
and it is said of her in Rev 17:18:
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Scripture spells it out for us verbatim. If you read my initial point, you would have noticed problems arise when literal Jerusalem is taken as the identity. You have to explain how Christ is crucified on a street in Jerusalem when he wasn't. Youd have to explain how Jerusalem is never considered a great city in size compared to other cities. Or how Jerusalem is not called "the great city" in Revelation.
We Disagree

Jesus Is The Lord
 

ewq1938

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@Marty fox

I understand that Truth and Eqe will disagree, but please hear me out.
The verse in question:
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Problem #1: If you take this literally, when was Christ slain inside a city or on a street? He was actually slain outside of the city on a hill.


Not a valid point. Outside of the city and in the city is the same exact thing. It's speaking of general location not exact location.




Problem #2: If you think this is Jerusalem, you have to contend with the fact that "the great city" is referenced 8 times in Revelation as Babylon and not Jerusalem. (Revelation 14:8; 16:19; 17:18; 18:10; 18:16; 18:18; 18:19 and 18:21)
Problem #3: Jamieson notes, "the oldest manuscripts omit "the great" before city, so that it forms no exception. It must, therefore, have an anticipatory reference to mystical Babylon".
Problem #4: Jerusalem is never called "the great city" in Revelation.

Jerusalem is called the great city in Rev.


So, if you take the 2 "men" as literally 2 people, you must take their death as literal, on a literal street and in a literal city which Christ was crucified in where a literal beast ascends out of a literal bottomless pit when the 2 prophets disallow literal rain from the sky to feed the literal plants and grass. That is alot of stuff to contend with.

You add too much that isn't required. The two prophets die a literal death. Any arguments that deny that deny the text as written.


But, recognition that its speaking of Babylon and the 2 witnesses resemble the whole body of Christ preaching and coming in power of the law (Moses typified) and the prophets (Elijah typified) and their being silenced in that spiritual city.

This is the same error Amill makes when it symbolizes everything to change what the text says.
 

Timtofly

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Jesus was saying that even if He rose from the dead apostate Israel still wouldn’t believe in Him and he was right.
And Lazarus was raised from his grave and given a permanent incorruptible physical body, and ascended to Paradise, and you don't believe or accept those points given by Jesus.
 

Timtofly

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So, if you take the 2 "men" as literally 2 people, you must take their death as literal, on a literal street and in a literal city which Christ was crucified in where a literal beast ascends out of a literal bottomless pit when the 2 prophets disallow literal rain from the sky to feed the literal plants and grass.
The verse does not claim Jesus was killed in a city. It said where. Jesus was not crucified outside of Babylon Iraq. Jesus was crucified outside of Jerusalem. Jesus was literally crucified. Your excuse makes no sense because "where" does not literally mean "in". It is meaning the general location.

Why would the pit not literally be without a bottom? Because you only see Satan's virtual reality instead of God's creation?