CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
The Bible has some very unique ways of painting a picture. Very effective.
The Unclothed State (2 Cor. 5:4)
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The Bible has some very unique ways of painting a picture. Very effective.
'Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him:
for the marriage of the Lamb is come,
and His wife hath made herself ready.
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white:
for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.'
(Revelation 19:7-8)
Hi @CoreIssue,
Yes, for all those who have attained to this reward, will have overcome by faith, and endured to the end, even to the laying down of their lives.
Praise God!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
'Therefore we are always confident,I see it as death also without the body, but receiving the heaven body soon as this flesh stop breathing.
In 2Cor.5 it contradict a lot of people belief of the resurrection.
v8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(you get a new body being present with the Lord)
The problem is with this thoughts is with some is that they want to put people in heaven when they
die at the funeral home and at the grave yard preach they are going to be resurrected from the dead.
knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight )
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent,
we may be accepted of him.'
(2 Corinthians 5:6-9)
Hello @Bible_Gazer,
Being, 'present with the Lord', required His return, His physical presence: and that was the expectation of those living during those years of the Acts period, but it required the repentance of Israel for accomplishment, which did not happen - and still awaits fulfilment. Absent from the body to be 'present with the Lord' was what Paul desired, but not to be absent from the body and be unclothed in death. He wanted to be clothed upon of life, resurrection life: which has yet to take place now, due to that failure of Israel to repent.
* Though at present in an 'unclothed' state, awaiting resurrection: he will one day be, 'clothed upon by life'. and thereby also be, 'present with the Lord'; along with all who,' love His appearing'. (2 Timothy 4:8)
Praise God!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Being, 'present with the Lord', required His return, His physical presence: and that was the expectation of those living during those years of the Acts period, but it required the repentance of Israel for accomplishment, which did not happen - and still awaits fulfilment. Absent from the body to be 'present with the Lord' was what Paul desired, but not to be absent from the body and be unclothed in death. He wanted to be clothed upon of life, resurrection life: which has yet to take place now, due to that failure of Israel to repent.
* Though at present in an 'unclothed' state, awaiting resurrection: he will one day be, 'clothed upon by life'. and thereby also be, 'present with the Lord'; along with all who,' love His appearing'. (2 Timothy 4:8)
Praise God!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Deborah_
Well-Known Member
"While we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life."
This is my understanding:
Our material, earthly bodies are temporary shelters only. They are like tents: ideal for a nomadic existence, but flimsy and easily destroyed. They will eventually die, decompose and disintegrate; but we do not then cease to exist. On the contrary, we will have no further need of them, for there is a permanent and secure home waiting for us. Our present existence, which seems so ‘real’ and solid, is actually shadowy and insubstantial. It is the life to come which is genuinely ‘real’ and incomparably better; it will be like moving from a tent into a palace!
Paul hoped that Christ would return before he died - so that he could experience the immediate transformation of his mortal body into his immortal one, and not have to go through the in-between state of being a ‘naked’ soul. (In the rest of this passage, 'clothing' refers to a body of some kind, so why not in this verse?) For immortality is the destiny that we were originally created for.
This is my understanding:
Our material, earthly bodies are temporary shelters only. They are like tents: ideal for a nomadic existence, but flimsy and easily destroyed. They will eventually die, decompose and disintegrate; but we do not then cease to exist. On the contrary, we will have no further need of them, for there is a permanent and secure home waiting for us. Our present existence, which seems so ‘real’ and solid, is actually shadowy and insubstantial. It is the life to come which is genuinely ‘real’ and incomparably better; it will be like moving from a tent into a palace!
Paul hoped that Christ would return before he died - so that he could experience the immediate transformation of his mortal body into his immortal one, and not have to go through the in-between state of being a ‘naked’ soul. (In the rest of this passage, 'clothing' refers to a body of some kind, so why not in this verse?) For immortality is the destiny that we were originally created for.
' That He would grant you,
according to the riches of His glory,
to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man;
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith;
that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
May be able to comprehend with all saints
what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge,
that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.'
(Ephesians 3:16-19)
Hello @"ByGrace",
No, as you say, that which is born of the spirit is spirit. :)
In Christ Jesus
Chris
'For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'
(2 Corinthians 5:4)
Hello @APAK,
Forgive me for not addressing your response before now, but your way of expressing yourself made me nervous of perhaps misinterpreting your meaning. You will have had opportunity to read the responses by myself and others since: do you find that they are in accord with your thinking?
In Christ Jesus
Chris
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Bible_Gazer
Member
Do you think Jesus came for Stephen when was stoned to death ?
Seem to be, Jesus opened heaven up and I think Stephen saw where he was going.
So if he did then he would have a body now in heaven alive and not dead, present with the Lord, as how Paul wants to be.
Hello @Bible_Glazer,
Stephen is awaiting the resurrection from the dead. For there is no life apart from resurrection. In God's sight He is asleep in Christ, awaiting that glorious day. His life is hid with Christ in God.
Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
For clarity for others his Body is asleep (dead) and his spirit is in heaven very much awake.
Christians don't need to establish their doctrines from Ecclesiastes.
From God's perspective, Christians consist of spirit, soul, and body. Physical death is the separation of the soul and spirit from the body. And "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (Jesus Christ). When Stephen said "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" His soul and spirit (which are distinct but inseparable) went directly to be with Christ. And those souls and spirits are very much alive with Christ, and even referred to a "a great cloud of witnesses".
As to the "unclothed" state, it simply means that Christians must await the Resurrection/Rapture in order to receive their immortal glorified bodies.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Why didn't Stephen say he committed his spirit and soul?
Charity is right in what she said.
The cloud is of spirits, not souls.
It also says the spirits in heaven are given robes of Lenin.
Then when their bodies are glorified they will also have robes of lenin.
Stephen did not need to be redundant at a critical time.
"Spirit" includes soul since they are so closely joined together, that they are distinct but inseparable. And here is the proof:For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12)
What does this mean? Here another way that is is expressed.
New American Standard Bible
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
It means that Scripture is the only instrument that can penetrate to where the soul and spirit are distinguishable, since only the spirit comprehends spiritual things. The point being that the soul and spirit are inseparable.
Hello @CoreIssue,
With respect, it is the body which has the faculty of sight, of hearing, and speech. The spirit, is 'the breath of life', it has no body form or function. It goes back to God who gave it. The believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, when dead, is reckoned by God as being 'asleep in Christ'. There is no consciousness in death: and no life apart from the power of the resurrection. The resurrection is yet to come, at a time of God's choosing.
Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Hello @Enoch111,
God made man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. The whole man is the soul, consisting of both body and spirit, in which is the breath of life.
Stephen, like his Lord before him, committed his spirit unto God, and then died. 'The great cloud of witnesses' that you refer to are the old testament saints, who bore witness to the glory of God in their day, as the context of that portion of Hebrews will show.
The unclothed state is the state of death, which requires to be clothed upon by life, resurrection life.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Bible_Gazer
Member
2 Corinthians 5:1-2 (KJV)
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
Who is going to receive these new body from heaven ?
It doesn't read a resurrection from the ground from earth getting your old body back.
An house not made by Dad and Mom.
Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment;
Rev.6:11 white robes were given to every one of them.
Hopefully we understand there is a resurrection that is not from the ground.
There is a born again resurrection, a death in first Adam's family by baptism, a new man into the family of God.
In John 6
Jesus said their father all died that ate manna from heaven in the wilderness. Do they get a resurrection ?
Then he said if you eat of him the bread from heaven they would not die. . Do not die ever
Big contrast between these two statement.
I will throw this in:
Who was John in Revelation talking to ? This Angel was a human saint who made it to heaven and has a angelic heavenly body.
This Angel said he was of thy brethren, thy brethren the prophets.
So it seem some people are not going to die a death the is consider not alive.
Somebody is going to get that new heavenly body earlier than others.
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
Who is going to receive these new body from heaven ?
It doesn't read a resurrection from the ground from earth getting your old body back.
An house not made by Dad and Mom.
Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment;
Rev.6:11 white robes were given to every one of them.
Hopefully we understand there is a resurrection that is not from the ground.
There is a born again resurrection, a death in first Adam's family by baptism, a new man into the family of God.
In John 6
Jesus said their father all died that ate manna from heaven in the wilderness. Do they get a resurrection ?
Then he said if you eat of him the bread from heaven they would not die. . Do not die ever
Big contrast between these two statement.
I will throw this in:
Who was John in Revelation talking to ? This Angel was a human saint who made it to heaven and has a angelic heavenly body.
This Angel said he was of thy brethren, thy brethren the prophets.
So it seem some people are not going to die a death the is consider not alive.
Somebody is going to get that new heavenly body earlier than others.
You are using an oversimplified use of the text. There is no state of death for a believer...you are making an error in interpretation. A disciple of Christ is always alive before God.
You need to look at what is meant by "robes of righteousness"...which is an actual biblical term. A naked person is not a dead person...but one who is shamed because he lacks the robes of righteousness.
To be unclothed is to be naked...not dead. let's start there....do you understand that?
Hello @Bible_Gazer,
The subject of 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 is resurrection.
* The change will take place in the twinkling of an eye. In Thessalonians we read of a resurrection, in which those who are asleep in Christ will rise first and meet the Lord in the air, and those who are alive and remain with then rise to join them. That is when a 'change' will take place.
* Your second point refers to, (1 Corinthians 15:20-23):-
'But now is Christ risen from the dead,
and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death,
by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
(1 Corinthians 15:20-23)
* Those who ate the manna from heaven in the wilderness held the same hope of resurrection as expressed by Mary in John 11:23-26:-
'Jesus saith unto her, "Thy brother shall rise again."
Martha saith unto Him, "I know that He shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life:
he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Believest thou this?
(John 11:23-26)
* However, the Lord makes known to Mary, that He is the Resurrection and He is the Life: and those who, 'live and believe,' in the Lord Jesus Christ, on that resurrection day, will be raised without having to see death at all.
* There is also more than one resurrection.
* Angels are a separate creation to man, a man cannot become an angel. The Lord Jesus Christ was made a little lower than the angels, taking the form of a man, in order to redeem mankind.
* Angelic beings serve God in heaven, they are God's messengers.
'But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren,
.. concerning them which are asleep,
.... that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
.. even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
.. that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
.... shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
.. with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
.... and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
...... Then we which are alive and remain
........ shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
.......... and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
............ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
* This was the hope held by believers during the Acts period, for the coming of the Lord had the potential to be imminent at that time: The door was still open for Israel to repent until Acts 28:23-28, when they were finally laid aside (though temporarily) in unbelief.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Hello @Episkopos,
As I said to you in regard to your previous entry, the context of 2 Corinthians 5:4 is resurrection, and not righteousness.
* In answer to your final question, 'To be unclothed is to be naked...not dead. let's start there....do you understand that?':
* Within the context of 2 Corinthians 5:4, 'unclothed' refers to the death state. As you will know, the context of any passage is vital to understanding.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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"The whole man is the soul" is contradicted by Scripture. That is simply because "man became a living soul" simply means "man became a living person". Just like "eight souls were saved by water" simply means "eight persons were saved by water".
Now if you want the truth about what man consists of, then go to 1 Thessalonians 5:23 written by divine inspiration:
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole [1] spirit and [2] soul and [3] body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul distinguishes between the spirit and the soul because they are DISTINCT from each other, and yet inseparable. And also distinct from the body. Therefore we have this Scripture (Heb 4:12)
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
In view of these clear Scriptures, you should now give up your half-baked ideas about man's body, soul, and spirit. When people promote spiritual confusion even after seeing what is in the Bible, they condemn themselves.
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