The unknown single most important thing to be sure to know if you meet a JW.

[PS95]

I thought it would be helpful to understand how Jehovah's Witnesses view the atonement. It is a very different view than if you just read your bible and prayed.
You may need this info one day if you run into a JW or know someone who does.
I have invited @Aunty Jane to join me since she is a popular JW here, and we recently had an encounter here where we disagreed. I told her I would make a new thread, rather than divert the OP any further. So here we are.

I wrote this-
”A Christian will never deny that the- Lord Jesus' death paid for our sins.” JWs will say things, but their words mean something other than you think. They wont tell you this."

Jane wrote this-
"Since when do we deny that Christ’s sacrifice paid for our sins? Please show us where we have ever made a statement like that here?"
This is absolute nonsense! I don’t know where you get this half baked rubbish, but it is apparent that you didn’t listen at the meetings or even to your parents growing up."

Ok. I should explain that I was raised as a JW. My family is large and are all JWs, but me and one of my brothers. I am a Christian now, and have been shunned by family for many years. I was not baptized as a JW. I defended my faith in Christ and was shunned. They see me as antichrist.
We speak at funerals, or if they have what is called to JWs a "family emergency" on their part, they may or may not call me.
Ok enough of that-

If you stick around you will be very surprised at what you learn here. I do not expect this to take very long. I am also requesting if Aunty Jane could please try her best to succinctly say what she has to say, so that posts are not a mile long. No one likes reading those. I would like to keep it short and sweet and stay on topic I hope you can agree, Jane.

My question for Jane --
Ok, Hi Jane,
You insist that JWs believe that when our Lord was crucified that His death paid for OUR sins. Not just Adam's sin, but our sins. We know we all inherited Adam's sin. I am not referring to that, nor do I need to hear that again. We all know we inherited Adam's sin nature and we are all sentenced to die. Let's not waste time on what we know. I stated that Jesus' blood paid for OUR sins, and You said, yes, that you teach that.
Are your personal sins washed clean in the blood of Jesus, Jane?

 

[Davy]

So what is it that JWs believe instead, that you are pointing to?

I personally am not afraid to call the Jehovah Witness organization a Cult, and NOT Christianity, simply because they do not believe Lord Jesus is GOD The Savior, but just an Angel, even the Archangel Michael.

Their false idea goes strongly... against New Testament doctrine, because one of Lord Jesus' Titles is Immanuel, which means 'God with us' (see Matthew 1:23). There are also several New Testament Scriptures where Lord Jesus either directly, or indirectly, claimed to be God; for example, the end of John 8 when Jesus answered the unbelieving Jews by saying, "... Before Abraham was, I AM." The 'I AM THAT I AM' is one of God's sacred Titles that He gave Moses (Exodus 3:14).

Therefore, making Jesus Christ as an Angel and not as God The Son Who died on the cross and was raised by The Father, is a complete... rejection of God's Plan of Salvation through His Son for the remission of sins for those who believe.

And that... kind of idea... tells on itself as to its original origin, i.e., the UNBELIEVING JEWS who REJECT Jesus of Nazareth as God The Savior Who died on the cross for the remission of sins of those who believe. It means from the very start, JWs do not believe Christ's death and resurrection remits sin. Thus JWs are NOT saved unless they leave that Cult started by one man, Charles Taz Russell, and instead believe the ONLY Name Jesus Christ by which man can be saved, as written per Acts 4:10-12.

 

[PS95]

Unfortunately, Aunty Jane has declined my offer-.
So, Here is the JW reasoning for how to pay for sins- Be prepared to be speechless at first and then deeply saddened for them.

To a JW- Jesus' sacrifice paid for Adam's sin. (Although, Adam will never be forgiven.) We all know that death came through Adam as the penalty for sin. What about our personal sins since we also all have sinned? How are we forgiven?
To a JW, Jesus' blood does not cover our personal sins. He just paved a way for us to perhaps gain life by paying for Adam's sin which resulted in death. So how are we forgiven our sins? Well, they aren't "forgiven". OK so..

Romans Chapter 6 is very beautiful- 23 verses long! I encourage you to pray and read all of the chapter. If you don't full comprehend it, use your cross references as well.
We should always read the bible in context, agree? At the very least we should read a whole chapter in context.. But JWs don't do that. They memorize verses, or in this case partial sentences. So, JWs end up with a lot of erroneous weird teachings. If you will read the chapter you will see that Paul is speaking about how believers died to sin, were crucified with Christ, buried with Him in baptism, raised to newness of life, freed from sin, and so on. ( freed, in v7 = set free, justified, acquitted)

Out of the23 total verses in Romans 6- Only 2 partial sentences out of 2 verses are needed from this entire chapter to form this new strange Christ denying doctrine. As you know, anyone can make the bible say anything you want to that way. We all have heard this one, "Judas hung himself , go and do likewise." This is the same type of thing.

Romans Chapter 6-

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin, 7for he who has died is freed from sin.
8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

​

Got that? Ok, So here's where they get deadly sticky-
They utterly rip 1/7th of one sentence out of it's context. Verse 5-7 are one sentence. The first partial abused sentence is v 7

(v7) "............for he who has died is freed from sin."
When JWs die physically that is their payment for their sins. Which means that, since by physically dying their sins were paid for, so they will be automatically resurrected.
If you ask why- they will tell you that Adam's penalty was death which spread to us. ok. So, when they die they will paying for their own sins. Now, if you did not know Christ or the scriptures, you may believe that twisted logic. But you certainly will not, if you do know Christ and the bible. *( for v 7- Just see Romans 6:18--and 6:22 for clarification)
But, if you still are not convinced by the JW's yet- Here comes their fireball.. they will add in 1/2 of verse 23 for the foul.
(v23)- They only use the underlined portion;
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
So here is what they are left with- ..for he who has died is freed from sin." For the wages of sin is death
That's the doctrine. No I am not joking.
I've tried to help a JW see that Ro 6 is speaking about our lives NOW in the present time in Christ- but he was insistent that this entire passage is all about after they are physically dead! He then refused to read it along with me.
I could not convince him otherwise due to their JW elect leaders , Said so.
For a JW, only their elect leaders can do bible interpreting, and they are not to ever question it. They must also teach it to others.

V23- Instead of seeing the gospel's gift of grace in the 2nd half of the sentence-- they accept the negative half which is the penalty for those who die rejecting Christ- those who reject the gift of God. Paul is merely showing the 2 outcomes. They will tell you that proves that we pay for our sins by dying. They fail to see that God is paying the wage earned as sinners without Christ. It is what we all deserve. . They've decided that since death is the penalty for sin since Adam- that God accepts our dead bodies as payment now. This is disturbing pretzel logic and ignores all that the Lord Jesus did! They deliberately ignore the 2nd half of the sentence-
".........BUT the free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord"!!!

So, perhaps you can see now why Jesus is not all that terribly important in the Watchtower religion. He only helped them part way by giving them a chance to earn a resurrection by obeying all of the Watchtower rules, and then dying for their sins.
Those JWs who have not died yet have a different problem. - but that's a whole other subject........

Congrats if you made it this far! Obviously, in CONTEXT, Paul is speaking about our lives NOW in Christ.
Believers have been baptized into Christ's death. And since we were baptized into His death-we were also buried with Him, and since we were buried with Him, we were also raised to walk in our new life now, and then we will also share in His resurrection.
Paul continues that since our old self was crucified with Jesus, then our sinful bodies have died, so we are no longer slaves to sin which we once were, because since we have died with Him we have been acquitted or freed from our sins.
Now, also since we have died with Christ we will also live with Him since He was raised from the dead.
So, now we should consider ourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ!

 

[PS95]

There are so many bible passages that confirm that JWS are in great error here.
Here are some cross references for vs 2-9 . Verse 23 is self-explanatory!
Romans 6-
verse 2- Luke 20:6, Ro 6:15, Ro 6:11, Ro 7:4, 7:6, Gal 2:19, Col 2:20, Col 3:3
verse 3- Matt 28:19, Acts 2:38, 8:16, 19:5, Gal 3:27
verse 4-Col 2:12, Acts 2:24, Ro 6:9, John 11:40, 2 Cor 13:4, Ro 7:6, 2 Cor 5:17, Gal 6:15, Eph 4:23, Col 3:10
verses 5-7 - 2 Cor 4:10, Phil 3:10, Col 2:12, 31, Eph 4:22, Col 3:9, Gal 2:20, Gal 5:24, Gal 6:14, Ro 7:24, Ro 6:18, 22, John 8:36
verses 8-9 - Ro 6:4, 2 Tim 2:11, Eph 2:5, Col 2:12, 2 Cor 4:10, acts 2:24, Ro 6:4, Rev 1:18

Once you understand this, you can see just how great and deadly this error is. The JW elect leaders are playing like a cruel horrible joke in order to enslave people to them. Please show JW's this chapter( and cross references!) at the door, or wherever you see them, to plant a seed. Don't allow them to sidetrack you with the trinity argument or soul sleep. That is where they desire to steer you to debate endlessly. Keep bringing them right back to this topic. They don't have Christ, and that is FIRST, pure and simple.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

To a JW- Jesus' sacrifice paid for Adam's sin. (Although, Adam will never be forgiven.) We all know that death came through Adam as the penalty for sin. What about our personal sins since we also all have sinned? How are we forgiven?
To a JW, Jesus' blood does not cover our personal sins. He just paved a way for us to perhaps gain life by paying for Adam's sin which resulted in death. So how are we forgiven our sins? Well, they aren't "forgiven". OK so..

Romans Chapter 6 is very beautiful- 23 verses long! I encourage you to pray and read all of the chapter. If you don't full comprehend it, use your cross references as well.
We should always read the bible in context, agree? At the very least we should read a whole chapter in context.. But JWs don't do that. They memorize verses, or in this case partial sentences. So, JWs end up with a lot of erroneous weird teachings. If you will read the chapter you will see that Paul is speaking about how believers died to sin, were crucified with Christ, buried with Him in baptism, raised to newness of life, freed from sin, and so on. ( freed, in v7 = set free, justified, acquitted)

Out of the23 total verses in Romans 6- Only 2 partial sentences out of 2 verses are needed from this entire chapter to form this new strange Christ denying doctrine. As you know, anyone can make the bible say anything you want to that way. We all have heard this one, "Judas hung himself , go and do likewise." This is the same type of thing.

Romans Chapter 6-

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin, 7for he who has died is freed from sin.
8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

​

Got that? Ok, So here's where they get deadly sticky-
They utterly rip 1/7th of one sentence out of it's context. Verse 5-7 are one sentence. The first partial abused sentence is v 7

(v7) "............for he who has died is freed from sin."
When JWs die physically that is their payment for their sins. Which means that, since by physically dying their sins were paid for, so they will be automatically resurrected.
If you ask why- they will tell you that Adam's penalty was death which spread to us. ok. So, when they die they will paying for their own sins. Now, if you did not know Christ or the scriptures, you may believe that twisted logic. But you certainly will not, if you do know Christ and the bible. *( for v 7- Just see Romans 6:18--and 6:22 for clarification)
But, if you still are not convinced by the JW's yet- Here comes their fireball.. they will add in 1/2 of verse 23 for the foul.
(v23)- They only use the underlined portion;
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
So here is what they are left with- ..for he who has died is freed from sin." For the wages of sin is death
That's the doctrine. No I am not joking.
I've tried to help a JW see that Ro 6 is speaking about our lives NOW in the present time in Christ- but he was insistent that this entire passage is all about after they are physically dead! He then refused to read it along with me.
I could not convince him otherwise due to their JW elect leaders , Said so.
For a JW, only their elect leaders can do bible interpreting, and they are not to ever question it. They must also teach it to others.

V23- Instead of seeing the gospel's gift of grace in the 2nd half of the sentence-- they accept the negative half which is the penalty for those who die rejecting Christ- those who reject the gift of God. Paul is merely showing the 2 outcomes. They will tell you that proves that we pay for our sins by dying. They fail to see that God is paying the wage earned as sinners without Christ. It is what we all deserve. . They've decided that since death is the penalty for sin since Adam- that God accepts our dead bodies as payment now. This is disturbing pretzel logic and ignores all that the Lord Jesus did! They deliberately ignore the 2nd half of the sentence-
".........BUT the free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord"!!!

So, perhaps you can see now why Jesus is not all that terribly important in the Watchtower religion. He only helped them part way by giving them a chance to earn a resurrection by obeying all of the Watchtower rules, and then dying for their sins.
Those JWs who have not died yet have a different problem. - but that's a whole other subject........

Congrats if you made it this far! Obviously, in CONTEXT, Paul is speaking about our lives NOW in Christ.
Believers have been baptized into Christ's death. And since we were baptized into His death-we were also buried with Him, and since we were buried with Him, we were also raised to walk in our new life now, and then we will also share in His resurrection.
Paul continues that since our old self was crucified with Jesus, then our sinful bodies have died, so we are no longer slaves to sin which we once were, because since we have died with Him we have been acquitted or freed from our sins.
Now, also since we have died with Christ we will also live with Him since He was raised from the dead.
So, now we should consider ourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ!

That is just terrible. That is one of the worst cases of cherry picking of scripture that I've ever seen. They ignore about 99% of Romans 6 and form doctrine out of the 1% that they pull out of context. Very sad. They are very deceived and we need to pray for them.

 

[PS95]

So what is it that JWs believe instead, that you are pointing to?

It's really pretty simple when you understand it. It's just hard to put into words. I hope you took time to read it. I wish it could have been shorter. It alone is their single biggest problem.

I personally am not afraid to call the Jehovah Witness organization a Cult, and NOT Christianity, simply because they do not believe Lord Jesus is GOD The Savior, but just an Angel, even the Archangel Michael.

I am not defending them however, calling them a cult does nothing to help a JW. They see that as persecution and dig in further.
I agree though, and even Hebrews tells us He is no angel. They are a mind control cult for reasons that only one who has been there understands once freed.

Their false idea goes strongly... against New Testament doctrine, because one of Lord Jesus' Titles is Immanuel, which means 'God with us' (see Matthew 1:23). There are also several New Testament Scriptures where Lord Jesus either directly, or indirectly, claimed to be God; for example, the end of John 8 when Jesus answered the unbelieving Jews by saying, "... Before Abraham was, I AM." The 'I AM THAT I AM' is one of God's sacred Titles that He gave Moses (Exodus 3:14).
Therefore, making Jesus Christ as an Angel and not as God The Son Who died on the cross and was raised by The Father, is a complete... rejection of God's Plan of Salvation through His Son for the remission of sins for those who believe.

They DO NOT believe that Jesus died for remission of our sins. That is where they go very WRONG.
I don't agree that not believing the trinity is the reason. There are many who don't accept the trinity, but they know that Jesus' death paid for their sins!! @Matthias is just one example here. I am not sure if he can post on this board because he is restricted to where he can post, due to not accepting the trinity. JWs however can post wherever they like because they lie about what they believe.

And that... kind of idea... tells on itself as to its original origin, i.e., the UNBELIEVING JEWS who REJECT Jesus of Nazareth as God The Savior Who died on the cross for the remission of sins of those who believe. It means from the very start, JWs do not believe Christ's death and resurrection remits sin. Thus JWs are NOT saved unless they leave that Cult started by one man, Charles Taz Russell, and instead believe the ONLY Name Jesus Christ by which man can be saved, as written per Acts 4:10-12.

The Son of God died. God the Father did not die. Jesus' body died. God can not die. The entire universe would have collapsed. We need to be careful about how we words things. When you say God died, That is exactly why people don't believe in the trinity. Make sense?

 

[PS95]

That is just terrible. That is one of the worst cases of cherry picking of scripture that I've ever seen. They ignore about 99% of Romans 6 and form doctrine out of the 1% that they pull out of context. Very sad. They are very deceived and we need to pray for them.

I know. It denies MOST of the New Testament. But JWs already believe that most of the NT is not for them. Just for their elect. They say they are " the other sheep" which is an earthy class. They deny that the other sheep are the Gentiles. Nothing is scriptural with them. It's all cherry picked.
Yes we need to pray for them as a whole. I wonder sometimes.. who is it that John said, "I am not saying to pray for that one.."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I know. It denies MOST of the New Testament. But JWs already believe that most of the NT is not for them. Just for their elect. They say they are " the other sheep" which is an earthy class. They deny that the other sheep are the Gentiles.

Wow. You have to be very lacking in discernment to not understand that the first fold of sheep He referenced were the Jews who believe and His other fold of sheep are the Gentiles who believe in Him.

Nothing is scriptural with them. It's all cherry picked.

That has become very evidence as I've engaged in discussion with them. It's kind of shocking, really.

Yes we need to pray for them as a whole. I wonder sometimes.. who is it that John said, "I am not saying to pray for that one.."

We should pray for everyone. Are you thinking of John 17 where Jesus said He wasn't praying for the world, but just for His disciples? The context of that was not that He said we shouldn't pray for the world, but that He was making a specific prayer that only applied to His disciples.

 

[PS95]

That has become very evidence as I've engaged in discussion with them. It's kind of shocking, really.

Yes, It is shockinginly insane for me now too. Back then, I knew no better though. The JW bible requires mental gymnastics to comprehend and combine that with not being born of the spirit-- I simply could not understand it much of the NT. So, all that I had known was to let the magazines and books of the "elect" men teach me what the bible teaches. That is what JWs are required to do.
BIG MISTAKE! That is what all JWs do.

I came to a point where I knew something was missing while studying with them, when I was considering baptism. I had no idea what I felt was missing, but I felt it had something to do with Jesus. One day out of nowhere, I said to the elder and his wife- "I don't know If I can be baptized as a JW- I have a lot of sins" They just looked at me blankly and said, come sit down (back to the book study). I said,
" Well, wait, what about Jesus?" Mind you, I had no clue..
Again, the blank stare, and the elder walked away, and just sat down at the table where we were studying the "book". . . His wife looked at me up and down very slowly. It felt weird almost like she was in slow motion. She almost looked like she hated me. I never forgot her face.

We always had a great relationship. I adored and admired them and thought it was mutual. She finally said, "just come sit down". So I did.
The elder continued the study where he had left off. I was waiting for him to show me what to do about my sins. He didn't. He didn't even mention it. So I asked again..and he said "we need to continue this way"- pointing to the JW book. I said, "Can we just read the bible from now on?' He laughed and said no. He had heard that from me a few times before.

After they left, I prayed. I asked Jehovah to please help me because I didn't know what to do, and that all that I want is HIS TRUTH, and I dont care what it is, I will believe it. but I feel something may be missing when I study with Jws. I am not sure if I am right, so will you please help me to see?
That was that. I began to read my bible and I grabbed an old RSV that I had but never read it. I compared the Jw bible with it as I read Romans. I did not trust the RSV only the JW bible. I read the entire book of Romans in one night. I said out loud-
"They don't teach ANY of this!!" I was amazed. I was in my thirties and I had no idea of any of that.
I ended the studies. I just kept praying and reading since I felt that I could not trust man to teach me.

We should pray for everyone. Are you thinking of John 17 where Jesus said He wasn't praying for the world, but just for His disciples? The context of that was not that He said we shouldn't pray for the world, but that He was making a specific prayer that only applied to His disciples.

No. This one-

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death. 1 Jo 5:16-17

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, It is shockinginly insane for me now too. Back then, I knew no better though. The JW bible requires mental gymnastics to comprehend and combine that with not being born of the spirit-- I simply could not understand it much of the NT. So, all that I had known was to let the magazines and books of the "elect" men teach me what the bible teaches. That is what JWs are required to do.
BIG MISTAKE! That is what all JWs do.

I came to a point where I knew something was missing while studying with them, when I was considering baptism. I had no idea what I felt was missing, but I felt it had something to do with Jesus. One day out of nowhere, I said to the elder and his wife- "I don't know If I can be baptized as a JW- I have a lot of sins" They just looked at me blankly and said, come sit down (back to the book study). I said,
" Well, wait, what about Jesus?" Mind you, I had no clue..
Again, the blank stare, and the elder walked away, and just sat down at the table where we were studying the "book". . . His wife looked at me up and down very slowly. It felt weird almost like she was in slow motion. She almost looked like she hated me. I never forgot her face.

We always had a great relationship. I adored and admired them and thought it was mutual. She finally said, "just come sit down". So I did.
The elder continued the study where he had left off. I was waiting for him to show me what to do about my sins. He didn't. He didn't even mention it. So I asked again..and he said "we need to continue this way"- pointing to the JW book. I said, "Can we just read the bible from now on?' He laughed and said no. He had heard that from me a few times before.

After they left, I prayed. I asked Jehovah to please help me because I didn't know what to do, and that all that I want is HIS TRUTH, and I dont care what it is, I will believe it. but I feel something may be missing when I study with Jws. I am not sure if I am right, so will you please help me to see?
That was that. I began to read my bible and I grabbed an old RSV that I had but never read it. I compared the Jw bible with it as I read Romans. I did not trust the RSV only the JW bible. I read the entire book of Romans in one night. I said out loud-
"They don't teach ANY of this!!" I was amazed. I was in my thirties and I had no idea of any of that.
I ended the studies. I just kept praying and reading since I felt that I could not trust man to teach me.

That is an awesome testimony that you should share with as many people as possible. It's very inspiring!

No. This one-

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death. 1 Jo 5:16-17

Ah, okay. That might be referring to this...

Matthew 12:31 Therefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

So, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit could be the sin that John was talking about if he was saying that there is just one sin that can't be forgiven and leads to death. I'm not 100% certain that those 2 passages are related, though.

 

[PS95]

That is an awesome testimony that you should share with as many people as possible. It's very inspiring!

It is?

Ah, okay. That might be referring to this...

Matthew 12:31 Therefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

So, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit could be the sin that John was talking about if he was saying that there is just one sin that can't be forgiven and leads to death. I'm not 100% certain that those 2 passages are related, though.

rejecting Jesus and what He accomplished is sin that leads to death too. Agree? But as long as you live you can change and repent.
Sin against Holy Spirit seems to be lying to God. ( (annaias and saphira)?. You just die right there it seems. No chance to repent.

Just my thoughts.. idk for sure

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is?

Yes! Absolutely. You came out from major spiritual darkness where people were being brainwashed and that is inspiring to see what God did in your life. Also, your testimony could lead other JWs to think about things more deeply and wonder why they are not encouraged to read the Bible and they might try reading it for themselves as well.

rejecting Jesus and what He accomplished is sin that leads to death too. Agree?

Yes, it could be about that instead. John 3:18 indicates that rejecting Jesus is what brings condemnation. I haven't thought a lot about this, but now that I'm thinking more about it, that might be what John had in mind.

But as long as you live you can change and repent.

Yeah, But, if you don't repent it leads to death. But, John talked about not praying for such a person, so what would that mean? I'm not really sure, honestly. Something worth taking a closer look at.

Sin against Holy Spirit seems to be lying to God. ( (annaias and saphira)?. You just die right there it seems. No chance to repent.

Well, if you read Matthew 12:22-32 and see the context you should see that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when you attribute things to Satan that are done by the Holy Spirit instead such as when Jesus cast demons out of people. The Pharisees accused him of doing that by the power of Beelzebub, which is Satan and after that is when He talked about the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Just my thoughts.. idk for sure

I don't know for sure, either. 1 John 5:16-17 is certainly not straightforward, so we're left to speculate on it.

 

[PS95]

Yes! Absolutely. You came out from major spiritual darkness where people were being brainwashed and that is inspiring to see what God did in your life. Also, your testimony could lead other JWs to think about things more deeply and wonder why they are not encouraged to read the Bible and they might try reading it for themselves as well.


Yes, it could be about that instead. John 3:18 indicates that rejecting Jesus is what brings condemnation. I haven't thought a lot about this, but now that I'm thinking more about it, that might be what John had in mind.


Yeah, But, if you don't repent it leads to death. But, John talked about not praying for such a person, so what would that mean? I'm not really sure, honestly. Something worth taking a closer look at.


Well, if you read Matthew 12:22-32 and see the context you should see that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when you attribute things to Satan that are done by the Holy Spirit instead such as when Jesus cast demons out of people. The Pharisees accused him of doing that by the power of Beelzebub, which is Satan and after that is when He talked about the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Yes, you're right. I had forgotten that. So they don't automatically die right then and there. Ok, yes I know what you mean.
Many JWs say that constantly.
Everything Christian is from demons to them -- they say that a lot. they say satan answers our prayers. ETC
They have heard the gospel a million times in their door to door work- they reject it as evil.
they actually believe that Jesus is the king of the bottomless pit. Abbadon
ok I have to stop.. ugh

I don't know for sure, either. 1 John 5:16-17 is certainly not straightforward, so we're left to speculate on it.

It isn't but Matt 12 is.

 

[Triumph1300]

One thing is for sure.
When talking / discussing with a JW and disagreeing with them about issues, people, or politics, they will not declare you a "hater", as Protestant Christians will do.
I have been called a "hater" at least 15 times by Protestant Christians because I think a certain guy is not fit to be president.

 

[PS95]

Yes! Absolutely. You came out from major spiritual darkness where people were being brainwashed and that is inspiring to see what God did in your life. Also, your testimony could lead other JWs to think about things more deeply and wonder why they are not encouraged to read the Bible and they might try reading it for themselves as well.


Yes, it could be about that instead. John 3:18 indicates that rejecting Jesus is what brings condemnation. I haven't thought a lot about this, but now that I'm thinking more about it, that might be what John had in mind.


Yeah, But, if you don't repent it leads to death. But, John talked about not praying for such a person, so what would that mean? I'm not really sure, honestly. Something worth taking a closer look at.


Well, if you read Matthew 12:22-32 and see the context you should see that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when you attribute things to Satan that are done by the Holy Spirit instead such as when Jesus cast demons out of people. The Pharisees accused him of doing that by the power of Beelzebub, which is Satan and after that is when He talked about the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.


I don't know for sure, either. 1 John 5:16-17 is certainly not straightforward, so we're left to speculate on it.

Come to think of it, I'm 99% sure they teach that leaving the Jw org is sinning against Holy Spirit. ( no the)
Cause the leaders said they are anointed. ( other jws arent)
This is really disturbing. I never thought about it before. These men who cant even teach Romans properly. Who should go nowhere near a bible... = Holy Spirit?
this is only tip of the iceberg with their lies.
I feel ill.

 

[PS95]

One thing is for sure.
When talking / discussing with a JW and disagreeing with them about issues, people, or politics, they will not declare you a "hater", as Protestant Christians will do.
I have been called a "hater" at least 15 times by Protestant Christians because I think a certain guy is not fit to be president.

I agree with you that this forum is awful. Remember the wheat and the tares tho. Many who say they are Christian are not. There is a lot of venom in this place and should not be over non-salvational things. They are walking in the flesh. I never see this behavior among true believers in my personal experience. I'm planning on leaving here soon because of the way it is. I gave it 2 chances. I just wanted to leave them with knowledge about the JW Org. They don't seem to care. That isn't surprising given the atmosphere.
Peace be with you, Triumph. Surround yourself with like minded.

Funny thing you said about Jws.-- you would not believe what is said about Christians behind your back. It's even worse than here.
Jws use a tactic called, theocratic warfare, which means it is ok to lie to you if it protects them. They use Rahab to justify their lying. It's really absurd.
(and it's obvious that you have not met JW- Aunty Jane on here. )