The Vail

[Mr E]

2 Corinthians 3:13 Lexicon: and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.

biblehub.com

Why does God desire the veil to be removed in Christ?

It's not what you might think.

The veil/vail is as I said, an idea associated with humbling oneself, like bowing before a king- or the way a modest, unmarried woman might act in front of an eligible bachelor-- which is perhaps closer to the meaning intended. In the context of culture, this would entail some level of obesience-- like a dipping of the head, averting the eyes, and perhaps a veil.

In Christ-- the veil is removed. As the bride of Christ, there is no shame associated because it is a union. No false humility-- she is invited in, pursued and desired... like a man takes a wife--- a joining of equals without any kind of subservience implied.

 

[BarneyFife]

Figured out I’ve been saying it wrong. It is with a ‘b’….mine is always silent.

Google: Builders want to be sure their lines are straight or “plumb.” Because “plumb” means truly, completely, entirely straight, the slang dictionary says, about 1748 someone was called “plumb silly.” From there came “plumb crazy” (or its twin, “plumb loco”), “plumb tired,” and other such straightforward expressions.


Biscuit and gravy taste good. Especially together. My mom and grandparents grew up eating fatback, fried liver with onions, and all kinds of lard. I remember eating brains as a child (which is now …no yuk!) Now with all the processed food I wonder if they did eat better.

I'm about 99% sure that you're correct about the "b" in plum. I'm also about 99% sure that 99% of folks who use the word in the folksy way in question have no idea of its origin and would be unwilling to bet a nickel on how it's spelled. I sure wouldn't. I doubt that it ever made it into old Noah Webster's stream of consciousness. My daddy would probably know. He knows everything. I just play at it.

"Biscuits and gravy taste good."

Now, there's an understatement. I used to watch my Granny make it on Saturday mornings. The gravy is what fascinated me the most. She would brown the flour in the oil (she wasn't shy with the oil, either) until it turned to an almost Auburn color. Then she'd slowly stir in the milk and let it slo-o-o-o-owly simmer for about 10 minutes. She said "Any less time than that and you gotchee some biscuits and glue." She always stirred in the salt right before serving it up. She said if you put it in too early some of it "cooks out."

My aunts and uncles and cousins would sit around the big 10-seat dining room table and someone would invariably ask her "What's the secret to good gravy, Granny?" And she would invariably reply, instantly: "Salt and fat"

I never had calf brains but I think I've had at least a go-around or two with that other stuff. Brains is some of the most cholesterol-dense stuff known to man, so I'm glad I escaped that one. I've got enough trouble.

 

[BarneyFife]

Another "Encounter-er" !!!

I'm having all kinds of close encounters. My next will be the third kind.

If you get that far there might be an extra-terrestrial in it for ya.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I'm about 99% sure that you're correct about the "b" in plum. I'm also about 99% sure that 99% of folks who use the word in the folksy way in question have no idea of its origin and would be unwilling to bet a nickel on how it's spelled. I sure wouldn't. I doubt that it ever made it into old Noah Webster's stream of consciousness. My daddy would probably know. He knows everything. I just play at it.

"Biscuits and gravy taste good."

Now, there's an understatement. I used to watch my Granny make it on Saturday mornings. The gravy is what fascinated me the most. She would brown the flour in the oil (she wasn't shy with the oil, either) until it turned to an almost Auburn color. Then she'd slowly stir in the milk and let it slo-o-o-o-owly simmer for about 10 minutes. She said "Any less time than that and you gotchee some biscuits and glue." She always stirred in the salt right before serving it up. She said if you put it in too early some of it "cooks out."

My aunts and uncles and cousins would sit around the big 10-seat dining room table and someone would invariably ask her "What's the secret to good gravy, Granny?" And she would invariably reply, instantly: "Salt and fat"

I never had calf brains but I think I've had at least a go-around or two with that other stuff. Brains is some of the most cholesterol-dense stuff known to man, so I'm glad I escaped that one. I've got enough trouble.

Thank for sharing your memories. I could almost hear your granny saying “salt and fat”. Made me smile.

 

[BarneyFife]

Thank for sharing your memories. I could almost hear your granny saying “salt and fat”. Made me smile.

It does my heart good, too. Almost selfish, ain't it?

 

[Lambano]

Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers
A peck of pickled peppers Peter Piper picked
If Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers
Where’s the peck of pickled peppers Peter Piper picked?

That's easy for you to say!

 

[Mr E]

I'm about 99% sure that you're correct about the "b" in plum. I'm also about 99% sure that 99% of folks who use the word in the folksy way in question have no idea of its origin and would be unwilling to bet a nickel on how it's spelled. I sure wouldn't. I doubt that it ever made it into old Noah Webster's stream of consciousness. My daddy would probably know. He knows everything. I just play at it.

"Biscuits and gravy taste good."

Now, there's an understatement. I used to watch my Granny make it on Saturday mornings. The gravy is what fascinated me the most. She would brown the flour in the oil (she wasn't shy with the oil, either) until it turned to an almost Auburn color. Then she'd slowly stir in the milk and let it slo-o-o-o-owly simmer for about 10 minutes. She said "Any less time than that and you gotchee some biscuits and glue." She always stirred in the salt right before serving it up. She said if you put it in too early some of it "cooks out."

My aunts and uncles and cousins would sit around the big 10-seat dining room table and someone would invariably ask her "What's the secret to good gravy, Granny?" And she would invariably reply, instantly: "Salt and fat"

I never had calf brains but I think I've had at least a go-around or two with that other stuff. Brains is some of the most cholesterol-dense stuff known to man, so I'm glad I escaped that one. I've got enough trouble.

Whether is the silent "b" or the veil or the vail-- isn't language interesting? We can plumb the depths or be plum dumb.... to b, or not to b.

I love to look at words in the original Hebrew- often they contain such tremendous meaning that goes beyond the surface understanding. And then we derive meaning from those original meaning and sadly we lose important associations along the way. This is a perfect example.

When acting in an appropriate and modest way- a young virgin would veil (cover) herself and she would also vail (lower) herself. We miss this dual, broader meaning- but see the concept clearly in the example that @VictoryinJesus shared from Gen 24.

And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she lighted off the camel. For she had said unto the servant, What man is this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a vail, and covered herself.

She got down off the camel so she wouldn't be sitting high atop where he would be lower than her and having to look up at her. (humility) She covered herself (modesty). In English, we might say her actions demonstrated her availability. She was acknowledging that she was placing herself at his disposal.

And then-- (like Joseph took Mary as his wife) ---

Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her...

As his bride, in that tent-- uncovered, unveiled, unashamed and united with him.... Married and in that- unavailable to any other man.

 

[Mr E]

Speaking of losing meaning....

She lighted off a camel no longer means what it used to.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Whether is the silent "b" or the veil or the vail-- isn't language interesting? We can plumb the depths or be plum dumb.... to b, or not to b.

I love to look at words in the original Hebrew- often they contain such tremendous meaning that goes beyond the surface understanding. And then we derive meaning from those original meaning and sadly we lose important associations along the way. This is a perfect example.

When acting in an appropriate and modest way- a young virgin would veil (cover) herself and she would also vail (lower) herself. We miss this dual, broader meaning- but see the concept clearly in the example that @VictoryinJesus shared from Gen 24.

And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she lighted off the camel. For she had said unto the servant, What man is this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a vail, and covered herself.

She got down off the camel so she wouldn't be sitting high atop where he would be lower than her and having to look up at her. (humility) She covered herself (modesty). In English, we might say her actions demonstrated her availability. She was acknowledging that she was placing herself at his disposal.

And then-- (like Joseph took Mary as his wife) ---

Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her...

As his bride, in that tent-- uncovered, unveiled, unashamed and united with him.... Married and in that- unavailable to any other man.

It does make sense but I do struggle with language. I can’t say I understand fully when “vail” or “veil” is appropriate. In regards to Jesus Christ lowering, his humbling in becoming a servant.. He vailed himself in becoming a lowly servant? Is that the right usage of vail? Or still way off? I feel like I skipped a necessary part of testing words in sentences as a child to see if I was using them correctly.

 

[Jim B]

I’m a southern girl. My grandchildren laugh at a lot of my words usages. Like I have a habit of saying “that is plum crazy.” They tell me there is no “plum”. I’m going to ask maybe a stupid question. Concerning trees. Can “vail” be used as “canopy” or is “vail” only a type of tree?

It should be "plumb crazy".

 

[Mr E]

It does make sense but I do struggle with language. I can’t say I understand fully when “vail” or “veil” is appropriate. In regards to Jesus Christ lowering, his humbling in becoming a servant.. He vailed himself in becoming a lowly servant? Is that the right usage of vail? Or still way off? I feel like I skipped a necessary part of testing words in sentences as a child to see if I was using them correctly.

Not exactly. Jesus-- was a man. He didn't lower himself. The Holy Spirit- lowered itself and descended from heaven to rest upon him. I don't know how to emphasize this difference more strongly. The man is flesh. It's the spirit that descended and it is in spirit-- in Christ that we become the bride-of-Christ. John spells it out clearly -- Christ in Jesus, Jesus Christ in us, the Christ in the Father, the Father in us. The union is spiritual.

If you really want to go deep in the weeds and away from a PG rating, there's a whole 'nother aspect of this that has all kinds of overt sexual overtones.... to get biological on ya. 'The flesh' is also related to the veil, or the covering and it has everything to do with circumcision in a physical sense, but the association is the same. To be unveiled, or to leave the flesh behind (cut off from the flesh) in Christ is to be uncovered and unashamed also-- like a groom with his bride, in this act of union. To be naked and unashamed, as in the beginning.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Not exactly. Jesus-- was a man.

To explain my thoughts I didn’t mean literally a man put a …oh dear here we go … a vail or a veil… over his face which Moses did. But I meant that they were expecting a Lion and got a Lamb which obscured him. That surely the King of Israel they expected and waited for would not be among them as he who serves! But your whole post is helpful and interesting because I struggled also when writing the post prior, pausing on if it was appropriate to say…He lowered Himself. If I understood you correctly I agree… that the Holy Spirit did it, not the flesh. For example when Paul told them he feared His God would come and humble him in the presence. Or that there is a difference in false humility and the working of the Spirit.

As far a vail or veil goes. I think I’ll stick with “veil “from now on. Because right now it just isn’t clicking for me. I do appreciate your help with it.

The Holy Spirit- lowered itself and descended from heaven to rest upon him.

Agree. I will reread your post. But I’ve given up on which spelling of the word is correct. Now more interested in what you shared about did the flesh humble himself, or the Spirit which is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
James 3:17

 

[Mr E]

To explain my thoughts I didn’t mean literally a man put a …oh dear here we go … a vail or a veil… over his face which Moses did. But I meant that they were expecting a Lion and got a Lamb which obscured him. That surely the King of Israel they expected and waited for would not be among them as he who serves! But your whole post is helpful and interesting because I struggled also when writing the post prior, pausing on if it was appropriate to say…He lowered Himself. If I understood you correctly I agree… that the Holy Spirit did it, not the flesh. For example when Paul told them he feared His God would come and humble him in the presence. Or that there is a difference in false humility and the working of the Spirit.

As far a vail or veil goes. I think I’ll stick with “veil “from now on. Because right now it just isn’t clicking for me. I do appreciate your help with it.




Agree. I will reread your post. But I’ve given up on which spelling of the word is correct. Now more interested in what you shared about did the flesh humble himself, or the Spirit which is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
James 3:17

In heaven-- where we have seen only glimpses of that realm-- and don't have a clear view of the hidden things... We might refer to it as 'in the clouds' or something to that effect, but suffice to say -shrouded in mystery (as if veiled) -a union takes place. A spiritual Father joins with a spiritual mother and they produce spiritual offspring. Spirit gives birth to spirit.

This mystery becomes less of a mystery when we realize and consider that the same sort of union is reflected on earth-- an image of that union above and we recognize this to a lessor degree as the union between a man and a woman and the joining of their seed, producing fruit. We even call it a family tree, where the fruit thereof are children. Flesh gives birth to flesh.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Flesh gives birth to flesh.

That is scary though. At 54 it becomes to me how to stop reproducing flesh gives birth to flesh. I don’t mean literally how to stop giving birth to flesh (because at 54 and having a hysterectomy that isn’t even in my vocabulary). But instead how to stop sowing dysfunction and sorrow and consequences of flesh gives birth to flesh. For example
Galatians 5:16-25 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. [17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. [18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these ; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Which is one reason I come here to this board. I think I hear His voice leading. But I doubt that voice and trusting that voice. Working out is it my voice or His voice? Because I don’t want my voice leading any longer. As one who loves to write …. I’ve learned there are different voices and trying the voices heard… He seems to have a Voice different from all the other voices?

 

[Mr E]

That is scary though. At 54 it becomes to me how to stop reproducing flesh gives birth to flesh. I don’t mean literally how to stop giving birth to flesh (because at 54 and having a hysterectomy that isn’t even in my vocabulary). But instead how to stop sowing dysfunction and sorrow and consequences of flesh gives birth to flesh. For example
Galatians 5:16-25 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. [17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. [18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these ; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Which is one reason I come here to this board. I think I hear His voice leading. But I doubt that voice and trusting that voice. Working out is it my voice or His voice? Because I don’t want my voice leading any longer.

That desire of your heart is a true reflection of your spiritual condition. It's why I particularly enjoy conversing with you. You have a rare heart condition that makes you curious and open. Jesus said--

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

That desire of your heart is a true reflection of your spiritual condition. It's why I particularly enjoy conversing with you. You have a rare heart condition that makes you curious and open. Jesus said--

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Why though? Why me? I do see it …this rare heart condition and not to boast because I don’t know why because I’ve done nothing to deserve it. But I can’t deny it because it brings awareness to blessed beyond belief. it helps me see I have nothing really and truly to complain about. But instead should be thankful.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Why though? Why me? I do see it …this rare heart condition and not to boast because I don’t know why because I’ve done nothing to deserve it. But I can’t deny it because it brings awareness to blessed beyond belief. it helps me see I have nothing really and truly to complain about. But instead should be thankful.

thought afterwards about deleting this. Here is an ugly truth about me. I want compliments from others. BUT at the same time I hate compliments because when I get what I want or crave or think will be enough to satisfy…immediately there comes with it expectations from others and the compliment is short-lived when I consider how quick I’ll fail and disappoint them.

BUT there is one compliment that I seek after. It is on my mind a lot and it is this…sitting with family or friends close to me and to hear them voice “I just don’t see Christ anywhere. I don’t see any fruit anywhere.” I’ll be honest…that hurts . Maybe it is selfish on my part but it hurts because I see Christ the most in my life over these past couple of years. I can’t deny I see His transforming power and then to sit with those you love and want to be a witness of Christ to…to hear them completely tell you while walking with you in this life …that they don’t see Him or His fruit anywhere…it makes me sad. The one compliment I want the most, often the one I never receive. It makes me question then the fruit I see of Christ because they say “we don’t see Him.” So that was my joy over what @Mr E said or @Wynona in another thread. Maybe it is wrong but out of all compliments one could receive from anyone to me is for someone to encourage Christ as being seen. I would be lying if I said that isn’t what I want family and friends to say too…I desire for them to look over at me and say They see Christ. I don’t know why that is so important to me, but I know it is when they say they don’t see Him anywhere, while we sit and talk about Christ. It is like a slap to the face.

 

[Mr E]

thought afterwards about deleting this. Here is an ugly truth about me. I want compliments from others. BUT at the same time I hate compliments because when I get what I want or crave or think will be enough to satisfy…immediately there comes with it expectations from others and the compliment is short-lived when I consider how quick I’ll fail and disappoint them.

BUT there is one compliment that I seek after. It is on my mind a lot and it is this…sitting with family or friends close to me and to hear them voice “I just don’t see Christ anywhere. I don’t see any fruit anywhere.” I’ll be honest…that hurts . Maybe it is selfish on my part but it hurts because I see Christ the most in my life over these past couple of years. I can’t deny I see His transforming power and then to sit with those you love and want to be a witness of Christ to…to hear them completely tell you while walking with you in this life …that they don’t see Him or His fruit anywhere…it makes me sad. The one compliment I want the most, often the one I never receive. It makes me question then the fruit I see of Christ because they say “we don’t see Him.” So that was my joy over what @Mr E said or @Wynona in another thread. Maybe it is wrong but out of all compliments one could receive from anyone to me is for someone to encourage Christ as being seen. I would be lying if I said that isn’t what I want family and friends to say too…I desire for them to look over at me and say They see Christ. I don’t know why that is so important to me, but I know it is when they say they don’t see Him anywhere, while we sit and talk about Christ. It is like a slap to the face.

I'm glad you didn't delete any of it, and that you shared this. I wouldn't count on recognition. Most people don't ever see the presence of the Christ within themselves-- it isn't likely they will ever see the Christ in you.

-Not sure what you think about the gospel of Thomas, but in it Jesus is recorded as having said something interesting and apropos.

Jesus saw infants being suckled. He said to his disciples, "These infants being suckled are like those who enter the kingdom." They said to him, "Shall we then, as children, enter the kingdom?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."

When you make the outside like the inside...

When you make the inside like Christ and the outside reflects the inside, and the above and below look the same, and when the image of God is reflected inside you.... then you will get the recognition you seek. --Not from people. Not from family and friends and strangers on the Internet.... but in that kingdom within that you enter.

 

[Lambano]

BUT there is one compliment that I seek after. It is on my mind a lot and it is this…sitting with family or friends close to me and to hear them voice “I just don’t see Christ anywhere. I don’t see any fruit anywhere.” I’ll be honest…that hurts . Maybe it is selfish on my part but it hurts because I see Christ the most in my life over these past couple of years. I can’t deny I see His transforming power and then to sit with those you love and want to be a witness of Christ to…to hear them completely tell you while walking with you in this life …that they don’t see Him or His fruit anywhere…it makes me sad. The one compliment I want the most, often the one I never receive. It makes me question then the fruit I see of Christ because they say “we don’t see Him.”

I think we all have our pre-conceived ideas of what "Christ" and "Fruit" look like - and it blinds us from seeing what may be right before our very eyes. I know some of my blind spots - and it makes me wonder how many more I have that I'm blind to. Blind to my own blind spots.

Sometimes (it's rare), God lifts the veil and lets me see what I've been blind to.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Jesus saw infants being suckled. He said to his disciples, "These infants being suckled are like those who enter the kingdom." They said to him, "Shall we then, as children, enter the kingdom?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."

Never read that version. It sounds so different from how I’ve read it usually. Like reading it for the first time. What version do you read?