The Vail

[Mr E]

Never read that version. It sounds so different from how I’ve read it usually. Like reading it for the first time. What version do you read?

The Gospel of Thomas

 

[Wynona]

thought afterwards about deleting this. Here is an ugly truth about me. I want compliments from others. BUT at the same time I hate compliments because when I get what I want or crave or think will be enough to satisfy…immediately there comes with it expectations from others and the compliment is short-lived when I consider how quick I’ll fail and disappoint them.

BUT there is one compliment that I seek after. It is on my mind a lot and it is this…sitting with family or friends close to me and to hear them voice “I just don’t see Christ anywhere. I don’t see any fruit anywhere.” I’ll be honest…that hurts . Maybe it is selfish on my part but it hurts because I see Christ the most in my life over these past couple of years. I can’t deny I see His transforming power and then to sit with those you love and want to be a witness of Christ to…to hear them completely tell you while walking with you in this life …that they don’t see Him or His fruit anywhere…it makes me sad. The one compliment I want the most, often the one I never receive. It makes me question then the fruit I see of Christ because they say “we don’t see Him.” So that was my joy over what @Mr E said or @Wynona in another thread. Maybe it is wrong but out of all compliments one could receive from anyone to me is for someone to encourage Christ as being seen. I would be lying if I said that isn’t what I want family and friends to say too…I desire for them to look over at me and say They see Christ. I don’t know why that is so important to me, but I know it is when they say they don’t see Him anywhere, while we sit and talk about Christ. It is like a slap to the face.

I have an older Godly woman Im praying for as she does spiritual battle for her family. Her son, daughter-in-law and granddaughter have to live with her right now.

They may be too familiar to always see the treasure in the jar of clay. I think familiarity blinds people to God's glory and the fact that we are all made in God's image. It may blind your family to Christ in you.

But God can lift that veil at anytime, as @Mr E said. In my friend's case, Im praying very hard that that happens. And I believe it will.

My respect for my own mother's faith grew when I left home and realized that excellence as a mother is far from universal.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I'm glad you didn't delete any of it, and that you shared this. I wouldn't count on recognition. Most people don't ever see the presence of the Christ within themselves-- it isn't likely they will ever see the Christ in you.

-Not sure what you think about the gospel of Thomas, but in it Jesus is recorded as having said something interesting and apropos.

Jesus saw infants being suckled. He said to his disciples, "These infants being suckled are like those who enter the kingdom." They said to him, "Shall we then, as children, enter the kingdom?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."

When you make the outside like the inside...

When you make the inside like Christ and the outside reflects the inside, and the above and below look the same, and when the image of God is reflected inside you.... then you will get the recognition you seek. --Not from people. Not from family and friends and strangers on the Internet.... but in that kingdom within that you enter.

Reading The Gospel of Thomas now. Some of it is very much like others places in the word but gives more perspective (Imo). Some of it, I’ve never heard before. Like going to James. one thing I noticed is …and I don’t know what to make of it…Jesus seemed as harsh with his disciples as he was with the Pharisees. Blunt. (Or is a better word sharp.) And What did he tell Thomas that made Thomas tell them …if told you …you would want to stone me?!

 

[Mr E]

Reading The Gospel of Thomas now. Some of it is very much like others places in the word but gives more perspective (Imo). Some of it, I’ve never heard before. Like going to James. one thing I noticed is …and I don’t know what to make of it…Jesus seemed as harsh with his disciples as he was with the Pharisees. Blunt. (Or is a better word sharp.) And What did he tell Thomas that made Thomas tell them …if told you …you would want to stone me?!

Must have been something shocking eh?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Must have been something shocking eh?

Yes. Jesus Christ may have told Thomas, the same thing Stephen told Paul… “God doesn’t dwell in temples made with hands.”

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I have an older Godly woman Im praying for as she does spiritual battle for her family. Her son, daughter-in-law and granddaughter have to live with her right now.

They may be too familiar to always see the treasure in the jar of clay. I think familiarity blinds people to God's glory and the fact that we are all made in God's image. It may blind your family to Christ in you.

But God can lift that veil at anytime, as @Mr E said. In my friend's case, Im praying very hard that that happens. And I believe it will.

My respect for my own mother's faith grew when I left home and realized that excellence as a mother is far from universal.

I can see your point about familiarity. But also to me sometimes the most impossible to forgive are those close to you. Only my experience but it is sometimes easier to forgive a stranger than kin or friends where heavy emotions are involved.

You mother sounds like an amazing woman. a great role model!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Concerning the veil. As this thread winds down this is a thought I’ve had about the veil. Maybe it is nothing but to me it is something. When Stephen is being stoned to death, and Stephen looks up …he sees the heavens open and Jesus Christ standing at the right hand of the Father. To me it is possible that what Stephen is seeing beyond the veil, in seeing the heavens open …is who Stephen looked up at towering over him in that moment…which is Saul. The truth in what Stephen was crying out, Stephen seeing, God does not dwell in temples made with hands …seeing Saul …not random that Paul later says “no one stood with me but all left me, however Christ stood with me.”
I can’t prove it and maybe it is a wrong thought but to me I think or am becoming convinced what Stephen saw or looked up at that opens and Stephen exclaiming he saw the heavens open and God ruling!(the veil removed in Christ)…was prophetic of what was (is)to come where Saul would become Paul who they knew he had consented to Stephens death. The significance of Stephen telling them God does not dwell in temples made with hands then to look up …to see a door open (to the gentiles) And God Ruling. To me it is not unremarkable but remarkable in that Stephen looking up and being shown and seeing beyond or shown beyond instead of Stephens “I spit on that. He consented to my stoning! Avenge our blood!!” To me and maybe it is wrong but I think Stephen was filled with Joy of “Saul, you don’t see, but you will see! God dwells not in temples made with hands.”

 

[Mr E]

Yes. Jesus Christ may have told Thomas, the same thing Stephen told Paul… “God doesn’t dwell in temples made with hands.”

Or maybe it was something like--- Moses was a fraud.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Or maybe it was something like--- Moses was a fraud.

You mean the stutter that we love because we can relate to his insufficiency of stuttering? What do you mean a fraud? Don’t we love the disciples because they were all misfits too? Weak Moses was that the power be of God and not of men?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Or maybe it was something like--- Moses was a fraud.

Maybe. But when I read about Thomas telling them he could not tell them because they would pick up stones and stone him. I imagined and yes that could be wrong because it was my imagination… but poor Thomas tight-lipped and trembling. “I’m not going to say it. No way. Because if I do tell you what he told me, you’ll pick up stones and stone me.” I could only think of one sure time someone was stoned for what they cried out.

 

[Mr E]

Maybe. But when I read about Thomas telling them he could not tell them because they would pick up stones and stone him. I imagined and yes that could be wrong because it was my imagination… but poor Thomas tight-lipped and trembling. “I’m not going to say it. No way. Because if I do tell you what he told me, you’ll pick up stones and stone me.” I could only think of one sure time someone was stoned for what they cried out.

What was it Stephen said that got him stoned? (since you brought it up).... Stephen taught what Jesus taught, and that's what they stoned him for repeating. Do you think it would have been different for Thomas if he repeated what Jesus told him?

Now Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and miraculous signs among the people. But some men from the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called), both Cyrenians and Alexandrians, as well as some from Cilicia and the province of Asia, stood up and argued with Stephen. Yet they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit with which he spoke. Then they secretly instigated some men to say, “We have heard this man speaking blasphemous words against Moses and God.” They incited the people, the elders, and the experts in the law; then they approached Stephen, seized him, and brought him before the council. They brought forward false witnesses who said, “This man does not stop saying things against this holy place and the law. For we have heard him saying that Jesus the Nazarene will destroy this place and change the customs that Moses handed down to us.”

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What was it Stephen said that got him stoned? (since you brought it up).... Stephen taught what Jesus taught, and that's what they stoned him for repeating. Do you think it would have been different for Thomas if he repeated what Jesus told him?

Now Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and miraculous signs among the people. But some men from the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called), both Cyrenians and Alexandrians, as well as some from Cilicia and the province of Asia, stood up and argued with Stephen. Yet they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit with which he spoke. Then they secretly instigated some men to say, “We have heard this man speaking blasphemous words against Moses and God.” They incited the people, the elders, and the experts in the law; then they approached Stephen, seized him, and brought him before the council. They brought forward false witnesses who said, “This man does not stop saying things against this holy place and the law. For we have heard him saying that Jesus the Nazarene will destroy this place and change the customs that Moses handed down to us.”

Just for the sake of discussion on the above. I have questions about that. In every time I’ve read it was their accusing that He said He would destroy…yet His I come not to destroy but to save. I could be wrong but I have yet to find their allegations in order to rile or stir the people up against Him as a truth. He kept telling them they (you)are those who destroy. Correcting them even with “when you destroy this body. I will rebuild, raising it up again” His telling them what He would do to what they themselves have wasted and destroyed (God habitations, His body) Isaiah 58:10-12 And if you draw out your soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall your light rise in obscurity, and your darkness be as the noonday: [11] And the Lord shall guide you continually, and satisfy your soul in drought, and make fat your bones: and you shall be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. [12] And they that shall be of you shall build the old waste places: you shall raise up the foundations of many generations; (is this what He told them …you waste it…I will raise up the foundations of many generations. And their scratching of their heads how can he rebuild it in three days?) and you will be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

 

[Mr E]

You quoted--

When they heard these things, they became furious and ground their teeth at him. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently toward heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look!” he said. “I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

When they heard what things???

They killed him when they heard 'these things' about Moses.... Read the whole thing---


At that time Moses was born, and he was beautiful to God. For three months he was brought up in his father’s house, and when he had been abandoned, Pharaoh’s daughter adopted him and brought him up as her own son. So Moses was trained in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in his words and deeds. But when he was about forty years old, it entered his mind to visit his fellow countrymen the Israelites. When he saw one of them being hurt unfairly, Moses came to his defense and avenged the person who was mistreated by striking down the Egyptian. He thought his own people would understand that God was delivering them through him, but they did not understand. The next day Moses saw two men fighting and tried to make peace between them, saying, ‘Men, you are brothers; why are you hurting one another?’ But the man who was unfairly hurting his neighbor pushed Moses aside, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and judge over us? You don’t want to kill me the way you killed the Egyptian yesterday, do you?’ When the man said this, Moses fled and became a foreigner in the land of Midian, where he became the father of two sons.

“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to him in the desert of Mount Sinai, in the flame of a burning bush. When Moses saw it, he was amazed at the sight, and when he approached to investigate, there came the voice of the Lord, ‘I am the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.’ Moses began to tremble and did not dare to look more closely. But the Lord said to him, ‘Take the sandals off your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy ground. I have certainly seen the suffering of my people who are in Egypt and have heard their groaning, and I have come down to rescue them. Now come, I will send you to Egypt.’ This same Moses they had rejected, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and judge?’ God sent as both ruler and deliverer through the hand of the angel who appeared to him in the bush. This man led them out, performing wonders and miraculous signs in the land of Egypt, at the Red Sea, and in the wilderness for forty years. This is the Moses who said to the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers.’

This is the man who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors, and he received living oracles to give to you. Our ancestors were unwilling to obey him, but pushed him aside and turned back to Egypt in their hearts, saying to Aaron, ‘Make us gods who will go in front of us, for this Moses, who led us out of the land of Egypt —we do not know what has happened to him!’ At that time they made an idol in the form of a calf, brought a sacrifice to the idol, and began rejoicing in the works of their hands.

But God turned away from them and gave them over to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the prophets: ‘It was not to me that you offered slain animals and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, was it, house of Israel? But you took along the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of the god Rephan, the images you made to worship, but I will deport you beyond Babylon.’ Our ancestors had the tabernacle of testimony in the wilderness, just as God who spoke to Moses ordered him to make it according to the design he had seen. Our ancestors received possession of it and brought it in with Joshua when they dispossessed the nations that God drove out before our ancestors, until the time of David. He found favor with God and asked that he could find a dwelling place for the house of Jacob. But Solomon built a house for him. Yet the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands, as the prophet says,

‘Heaven is my throne,
and earth is the footstool for my feet.
What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord,
or what is my resting place?
Did my hand not make all these things?’

 

[Mr E]

Now imagine that you are the leaders in the temple. You are the experts in the Law. And you are filling your pockets with the Moses scam-- selling sacrifices, money exchanges, taxation, perks and penalties.... You have all the power. Religious and Political.

And Stephen comes along and says-- 'Yo. Don't forget that Moses was trained in all the wisdom of the Egyptians....

And don't forget that it was under his leadership that God turned away from them and gave them over to worship the host of heaven.

And oh by the way-- God said specifically--- ‘It was not to me that you offered slain animals and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, was it, house of Israel? But you took along the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of the god Rephan, the images you made to worship, but I will deport you beyond Babylon.’

So yeah.... Your whole sacrificial system is a big scam and always has been. Moses carried around the tent of Moloch and the star of Rephan and you all have the temple... big whoop. It's all coming down.'

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You quoted--

When they heard these things, they became furious and ground their teeth at him. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently toward heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look!” he said. “I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

When they heard what things???

They killed him when they heard 'these things' about Moses.... Read the whole thing---


At that time Moses was born, and he was beautiful to God. For three months he was brought up in his father’s house, and when he had been abandoned, Pharaoh’s daughter adopted him and brought him up as her own son. So Moses was trained in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in his words and deeds. But when he was about forty years old, it entered his mind to visit his fellow countrymen the Israelites. When he saw one of them being hurt unfairly, Moses came to his defense and avenged the person who was mistreated by striking down the Egyptian. He thought his own people would understand that God was delivering them through him, but they did not understand. The next day Moses saw two men fighting and tried to make peace between them, saying, ‘Men, you are brothers; why are you hurting one another?’ But the man who was unfairly hurting his neighbor pushed Moses aside, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and judge over us? You don’t want to kill me the way you killed the Egyptian yesterday, do you?’ When the man said this, Moses fled and became a foreigner in the land of Midian, where he became the father of two sons.

“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to him in the desert of Mount Sinai, in the flame of a burning bush. When Moses saw it, he was amazed at the sight, and when he approached to investigate, there came the voice of the Lord, ‘I am the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.’ Moses began to tremble and did not dare to look more closely. But the Lord said to him, ‘Take the sandals off your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy ground. I have certainly seen the suffering of my people who are in Egypt and have heard their groaning, and I have come down to rescue them. Now come, I will send you to Egypt.’ This same Moses they had rejected, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and judge?’ God sent as both ruler and deliverer through the hand of the angel who appeared to him in the bush. This man led them out, performing wonders and miraculous signs in the land of Egypt, at the Red Sea, and in the wilderness for forty years. This is the Moses who said to the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers.’

This is the man who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors, and he received living oracles to give to you. Our ancestors were unwilling to obey him, but pushed him aside and turned back to Egypt in their hearts, saying to Aaron, ‘Make us gods who will go in front of us, for this Moses, who led us out of the land of Egypt —we do not know what has happened to him!’ At that time they made an idol in the form of a calf, brought a sacrifice to the idol, and began rejoicing in the works of their hands.

But God turned away from them and gave them over to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the prophets: ‘It was not to me that you offered slain animals and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, was it, house of Israel? But you took along the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of the god Rephan, the images you made to worship, but I will deport you beyond Babylon.’ Our ancestors had the tabernacle of testimony in the wilderness, just as God who spoke to Moses ordered him to make it according to the design he had seen. Our ancestors received possession of it and brought it in with Joshua when they dispossessed the nations that God drove out before our ancestors, until the time of David. He found favor with God and asked that he could find a dwelling place for the house of Jacob. But Solomon built a house for him. Yet the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands, as the prophet says,

‘Heaven is my throne,
and earth is the footstool for my feet.
What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord,
or what is my resting place?
Did my hand not make all these things?’

Don’t misunderstand. I’m not disagreeing with you. All I’m saying is it is easier for me to grasp Stephen saying God doesn’t dwell in temples made with hands. Than to grasp all about Moses being a fraud. I’m not disagreeing with what you’ve posted. I think of what was glory had glory in this respect but that which was to come excelled in Glory so that which was beforehand had no glory, in that which excels in Glory. (Or paraphrasing what it says to me). I do get what you mean about what Stephen was stoned for. You can experience a taste of it on the board concerning all the miracles Jesus did; only wanting them to be physical things instead of teaching of spiritual things. Maybe I goof that up …but threads don’t want to talk about Spiritual healing but instead the promises of the physical things, and I’ve heard it concerning Multiple Sclerosis…how many did He heal who came to Him? All of them. And your Faith just isn’t strong enough to believe for a healing. For a year I read everyday in the Word asking God if His desire was to heal the MS. I don’t think so. So I don’t ask anymore. But I do ask to be healed in the mind, Body and heart.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Don’t misunderstand. I’m not disagreeing with you. All I’m saying is it is easier for me to grasp Stephen saying God doesn’t dwell in temples made with hands. Than to grasp all about Moses being a fraud. I’m not disagreeing with what you’ve posted. I think of what was glory had glory in this respect but that which was to come excelled in Glory so that which was beforehand no glory, in that which which excels in Glory. (Or paraphrasing what it says to me). I do get what you mean about what Stephen stoned was stoned for. You can experience a taste of it on the board concerning all the miracles Jesus did; only wanting them to be physical things instead of teaching of spiritual things. Maybe I goof that up …but threads don’t want to talk about Spiritual healing but instead the promises of the physical things, and I’ve heard it concerning Multiple Sclerosis…how many did He heal who came to Him? All of them. And your Faith just isn’t strong enough to believe for a healing. For a year I read everyday in the Word asking God if His desire was to heal the MS. I don’t think so. So I don’t ask anymore. But I do ask to be healed in the mind, Body and heart.

As far as Moses was a fake. The only way I can grasp that is to look in the mirror. To see looks and beauty and youth perish and fade away. All those things possessed for a time but are fake in they don’t last or don’t remain…I’m not offended by Moses was a fake. A poor substitute for that which does remain?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Now imagine that you are the leaders in the temple. You are the experts in the Law. And you are filling your pockets with the Moses scam-- selling sacrifices, money exchanges, taxation, perks and penalties.... You have all the power. Religious and Political.

And Stephen comes along and says-- 'Yo. Don't forget that Moses was trained in all the wisdom of the Egyptians....

And don't forget that it was under his leadership that God turned away from them and gave them over to worship the host of heaven.

And oh by the way-- God said specifically--- ‘It was not to me that you offered slain animals and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, was it, house of Israel? But you took along the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of the god Rephan, the images you made to worship, but I will deport you beyond Babylon.’

So yeah.... Your whole sacrificial system is a big scam and always has been. Moses carried around the tent of Moloch and the star of Rephan and you all have the temple... big whoop. It's all coming down.'

I imagine they would gnash their teeth and what is the saying? Be fit to be tied? Enraged, wrath-filled and rushing forward in agreement to take the stones up and stone Stephen. Thank you. you do have a way of showing the severity of their desiring to have their ears tickled but whenever it was something they didn’t want to hear…

No I don’t think it would have been any different for Thomas.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So yeah.... Your whole sacrificial system is a big scam and always has been. Moses carried around the tent of Moloch and the star of Rephan and you all have the temple... big whoop. It's all coming down.'

I hope you don’t get annoyed at my questions. But this is a big question I’ve had for a while. When He foretold of “see this temple here, these stones they are all coming down(falling down). Not one stone left upon another that isn’t turned over.” To me he was speaking of Luke 2:34-35 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; [35] (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

My question is …if God destroys. Why in every place it speaks of to destroy, it says to give it over to satan for the destruction?

 

[Mr E]

As far as Moses was a fake. The only way I can grasp that is to look in the mirror. To see looks and beauty and youth perish and fade away. All those things possessed for a time but are fake in they don’t last or don’t remain…I’m not offended by Moses was a fake. A poor substitute for that which does remain?

Not only a poor substitute, but a poor example. Just like King David was a poor example of the one who was to come. In fact you can look at any and every anointed leader and none of them compare to the Christ, as manifest in Jesus. Yet Stephen was stoned for speaking against Moses (and the Law). Jesus was crucified for the same crime.

 

[Mr E]

I imagine they would gnash their teeth and what is the saying? Be fit to be tied? Enraged, wrath-filled and rushing forward in agreement to take the stones up and stone Stephen. Thank you. you do have a way of showing the severity of their desiring to have their ears tickled but whenever it was something they didn’t want to hear…

No I don’t think it would have been any different for Thomas.

Yes, it's as simple as that. Folks might imagine Jesus telling Thomas some deep secret, while we dismiss actual textual evidence of what it actually was that Jesus taught, that got people killed. He didn't have to tell them anything mysterious. All he would have had to say is something true, that others wouldn't be able to accept.