jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Why do you not want to share your thoughts on 1 cor 15: 11???
If you are trying to make a point, then just make it.
Last chance to address something that I actually said.
The "watch rapture view"
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If you are trying to make a point, then just make it.
Last chance to address something that I actually said.
""" share your thoughts on 1 cor 15: 11"""
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
How does that verse apply to how a believer today is saved/sealed/justified ?
******
I understand 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 is the Gospel that teaches how a believer today is saved/sealed/justified.
Which verses do you rely on ?
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
The same, that should be obvious to you as I have already addressed this.
Eph 1
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ [who first put our confidence in Him as our Lord and Savior] would exist to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, and [as a result] believed in Him, were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit [the One promised by Christ] as owned and protected [by God]. 14 The Spirit is the guarantee [the first installment, the pledge, a foretaste] of our inheritance until the redemption of God’s own [purchased] possession.
Remember I said previously Peter was stamped with the Holy Spirit on the day he preached his first Gospel sermon???
So whether it was I or they so they preached. Peter was the first to hope in Christ right?
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""The same, that should be obvious to you as I have already addressed this.""
Confirming that you believe and agree that 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 is the saving Gospel that applies to believers today.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Is that YES, you agree that 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 is the saving Gospel that applies to believers today or NO ?
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The Light
Well-Known Member
What will it take to get you to understand that IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION............the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars fall from heaven.............JUST LIKE THE WORD SAYS.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
What will it take to get you to understand that when the SIXTH SEAL IS OPENED, the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. JUST LIKE THE WORD SAYS.
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
What will it take to get you to understand from the above information that we can easily conclude that when the 6th seal is opened the sun and moon are darkened and stars fall from heaven and the great tribulation is over.
Revelation 14:14 happens post trib which is PRE WRATH. And yes Revelation 14:14 is the gathering of the Jews. This occurs at the 6th seal prior to the wrath of God. PRE WRATH............
Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Also seen here.......... again........PRE WRATH.
Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
No. I understand that the coming of Jesus in Matthew is the coming of Jesus for a harvest. It is the harvest of the Jews, and it takes place prior to the wrath of God.
No. I understand what I am reading. I understand that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 has nothing to do with Armageddon which takes place at the end of the 7th seal. The coming of Jesus is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. But Jesus is coming for a harvest.......the second harvest. All return to heaven for the marriage supper which is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7 some of whom have come out of great tribulation.
All remain in heaven at the marriage supper during the ONE YEAR wrath of God. Then Jesus along with the armies of heaven return for Armageddon when Jesus speaks the Word. After that Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives which is the second advent.
No. The misunderstanding of the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 has been passed down by people that do not understand that there are two raptures. Since you understand that Jesus comes for the Jews in Rev 14:14 which occurs BEFORE the wrath of God, you should understand that the second harvest takes place at the 6th seal because of the signs of the sun, moon and stars.
So again, you claim that when Jesus shows up with His angels at the 6th seal BASED ON THE SIGNS OF THE SUN, MOON AND STARS.......He will NOT be in power and glory???????????????????????????????????????????????
I see no sun and moon darkened and the stars falling from heaven in Revelation 19. I also see no mention of power and glory in Revelation 19.
I do see the sun and moon darkened and the stars falling from heaven at the opening of the 6th seal. I also see Jesus coming in power and glory when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Yes, finally you get it.
I need to reframe your error that the signs of the sun, moon and stars that are seen in Matthew 24 occur in Revelation 19. This needs reframed from Revelation 19 where there are no signs of the sun, moon and stars to the 6th seal where the signs of the sun, moon and stars occur after the 6th seal is opened.
The only place that Jesus shows up in power and glory or great glory is Matthew 24, or Luke 21 or Mark 13 which are talking about the same event. This event occurs when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven which of course is after the 6th seal is opened.
I see no 7 year tribulation in Daniel 9:27. All I see is a one week covenant that the prince that shall come confirms. Please show me where there is a 7 year tribulation.
Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
No. Post trib which is pre wrath we see the Revelation 14:14 gathering of the Jews. In Matthew 24 we see the gathering from heaven and earth. This gathering occurs at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation as evidenced by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Exactly. Revelation 14:14 occurs at the 6th seal immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days. That is when Jesus comes in power and glory to gather the elect from heaven and earth.
Yes of course, angels accompany Jesus. Jesus swings the sickle and the earth is reaped. Who do you think is doing the gathering after the sickle is swung?
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
His angels gather elect as we see here.
Matthew 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I think you need to realize that the signs of the sun, moon and stars do not occur in Revelation 19, they occur at the 6th seal. It would be better to admit the facts as you have no scriptural support for your contention.
Right, there is no 7 year tribulation in Daniel 9:27. Messiah the Prince came, and confirmed the covenant with many in Israel for one week.
It was the New Covenant in His Blood. Matthew 26:28
The Light
Well-Known Member
Yes, Messiah confirmed the everlasting covenant.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
We don't have to be 'dogmatic' about the timing when Lord Jesus returns to gather His saints, because JESUS already told us the when...
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
So the question is, why aren't you following that timing that Lord Jesus said??
The Light
Well-Known Member
There is no 7 year tribulation.
There is a 7 year covenant that is confirmed by the Antichrist. Nothing in scripture prevents the covenant from being made and later confirmed........as in a few year later.
There is a 70th week of Daniel of which 3.5 years remains.
So you are trying to add the sun, moon and stars event to Revelation 19, but you are redoing it to be moon, sky and stars. You seem to be the one redoing things.
How so. There is a 7 year covenant. It is confirmed by the Antichrist. It can be made and later confirmed.
No. You are redoing the sun, moon and stars event that occurs at the 6th seal. Why can't you just read the scripture and accept the FACT that the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars fall from heaven when the 6th seal is opened. This is scriptural FACT and yet you keep denying the truth.
Nah., I understand that Rev 14:14-19 is Jesus coming with His angels to gather the elect at the 6th seal prior to the wrath of God.
There is no 7 year tribulation. If there is a 7 year tribulation, there should be no problem in you providing scriptural support of this. Please provide any scripture that proves a 7 year tribulation. Quit believing all the bull that has been passed down for years unless you can prove it in the scriptures.
Jesus comes in power and great glory at the signs of the sun, moon and stars. This of course occurs at the opening of the 6th seal just as the Word of God says. Why do you continue to reject what is clearly written. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal and then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. FACT. Just because things have been misunderstood for years and passed down incorrectly does not mean we accept this nonsense when there is proof that it is incorrect.
Most don't understand there are two raptures or harvests.........the Gentiles first and then the seed of the woman which is the 12 tribes across the earth. Once you understand there are two raptures everything fits in place perfectly.
The Light
Well-Known Member
The Light
Well-Known Member
So Davy if the Lord comes immediately after the tribulation and He only comes once as you claim, wouldn't Armageddon already be over if the tribulation was over in your timeline.
Run Davy Run.
Matthew 24:31, Jesus's angels gathering the elect is not the resurrection/rapture event. The resurrection/rapture instead will be direct action by Jesus, not by his angels being sent to do it.
Matthew 24:31 corresponds to Ezekiel 39:28, and Deuteronomy 30:1-6, The elect are the Jews who will be gathered to the land of Israel from the nations around the world when Jesus returns.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Because you jettison the 7 yr trib, you base EVERYTHING A off of a false strict definition of trib vs great trib vs wrath.
Your ENTRE ESCHATOLOGY is based off of a false platform.
That is why you attempt to make the AC as a "confirmer" OUTSIDE OF THE FACT THAT HE IS ALSO THE "BRINGER" of the covenant/treaty.
You cast down any logical acknowledging of the BOW in his hand.....(the COVENANT /TREATY.)
A bow
A white horse
A crown
Warring ....KILLING PEOPLE ( conquering and to conquer )
You reject the bow, (covenant) and the killing.
Your model has him appearing in the temple from his arrival.
Not scriptural.
How do you think the innumerable number in heaven died?
The AC !!!!!
The AC arrives AS THE ANTICHRIST.
You have him arriving and killing nobody.
Instead, your model has him arriving as the "anti Jew" entering the temple and desecration it.
That jettisons the entire first half of the 7 yr trib.
Or maybe you do not believe the white horse rider is the AC.
See the jumps you are making.????
Also , in over 40 years of study, I have never met ANY BROTHER with your exclusive view.
Post a utube or link of a similar view that you are embracing.
Seems like I asked you in the past for that info and you had a dodge.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Yes
Postrib is a 100% impossibility.
I can not believe how they sit there destroyed and in ashes and act like they have traction.
I may borrow that armageddon dynamic from you
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
QUOTE
"There is no 7 year tribulation. If there is a 7 year tribulation, there should be no problem in you providing scriptural support of this. Please provide any scripture that proves a 7 year tribulation. Quit believing all the bull that has been passed down for years unless you can prove it in the scriptures"
DAN 9 :27
You never read Rev 6 in line with the bible?
The AC is the FIRST SEAL.
HELLO....HE BEGINS THE TRIB KILLING BELIEVERS and has a covenant. (Bow)
YOU CANT CHANGE THAT WITH YOUR TRIB VS GREAT TRIB VS WRATH methodology.
It is MORE THAN OBVIOUS, THAT THE STARS MOON AND SUN OF MAT 24 AND REV 6 ARE THE SECOND COMING ON WHITE HORSES.
MORE THAN OBVIOUS Jesus returns in power and great glory ONLY AT THAT TIME.
You ever read acts ch 1?
Jesus returns at the rapture in ZERO power and great glory.
In case you missed it, the rapture is the GATHERING OF THE BRIDE.
ZERO power and great glory.
MAYBE STOP REFRAMING THE BIBLE.
THE only bull I am seeing is coming from you and your false ascertion I do not study on my own.
.....or maybe because you are the only one on the planet with your end times model, you are inferring only you are informed from heaven????
God reveals his word to his BODY....NOT ONE MANS private interpretation.
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