"The WAY" = Christianity?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is actually an easy question to answer - for anybody who understands Jewish teaching.
The Jews didn't simply rely on the Scriptures - like the Protestants of today. They, like the Catholic Church rely on BOTH Scripture AND Tradition.

Matt. 2:23 says:

"And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was SPOKEN by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene”.

The "spoken" word being referenced here is Oral Tradition.
GINOLJC, to all. I must disagree with assessment that what was spoken by the Prophets are not always Oral Tradition. just because a scripture say it was "SPOKEN" by a prophet do not necessary mean it oral, nor Tradition, but the keyword here is "FULFILLED" if it's "FULFILLED" then it must be found in the writings of the prophets.

Example:
#1. Matthew 1:22 "Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us".

was this spoken? YES, but we can read what was "SPOKEN" by the prophet? YES, so where was this verse spoken by the prophet? Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel".

#2. Matthew 2:15 "And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son".

where was this spoke at by the prophet?

Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt".

#3. “Rachel weeping for her children”
Matthew 2:17 "Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, 18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

where was this spoke at by the prophet?

Jeremiah 31:15 "Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not".

#4. Matthew 3:3 "For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

where was this spoke at by the prophet?

Isaiah 40:3 "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

there are many examples of this in the bible.

if something was spoken by a prophet or prophets it must be searched out in order to see what was said about the prophecy. if it was "WRITTEN" then one can find the prophecy "WORD" for "WORD". for it is WRITTEN".

so spoken, one may or may not find it as it is written, but in use by other words, signs, or symbols, signifying the prophecy.

and if written, one will find it word for word.

PCY.
 

DAH

Member
Apr 12, 2018
50
22
8
Northern CA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Re: "The Way"

Watch for the subtle differences as this term is translated in different Bible versions - the King James Version lists the term in two different ways, appropriately in my opinion.

"This Way" in the KJV refers to the Kingdom Gospel that MMLJ preached.

"That Way" refers to Paul's Gospel - the Gospel of Grace / Mystery Gospel for the Gentiles (1 Cor 15:1-4)

In all other versions of the Bible - these two terms are confounded to "The Way" which makes it appear there is only one Gospel...NOT TRUE.

See:

KINGDOM GOSPEL - preached to Jew only
Acts 9:2 "This Way"
Acts 22:4 "This Way"

PAUL'S GOSPEL / Gospel of Grace with both Jew and Gentile as one, with no separation (Eph 3:1-10)
Acts 19:9 "That Way"
Acts 19:23 "That Way"
Acts 24:22 "That Way"

Subtle subversion of the Word in all the different Bible translations is just what God said Satan would be up to:

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Re: "The Way"

Watch for the subtle differences as this term is translated in different Bible versions - the King James Version lists the term in two different ways, appropriately in my opinion.

"This Way" in the KJV refers to the Kingdom Gospel that MMLJ preached.

"That Way" refers to Paul's Gospel - the Gospel of Grace / Mystery Gospel for the Gentiles (1 Cor 15:1-4)

In all other versions of the Bible - these two terms are confounded to "The Way" which makes it appear there is only one Gospel...NOT TRUE.

See:

KINGDOM GOSPEL - preached to Jew only
Acts 9:2 "This Way"
Acts 22:4 "This Way"

PAUL'S GOSPEL / Gospel of Grace with both Jew and Gentile as one, with no separation (Eph 3:1-10)
Acts 19:9 "That Way"
Acts 19:23 "That Way"
Acts 24:22 "That Way"

Subtle subversion of the Word in all the different Bible translations is just what God said Satan would be up to:

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Not saying that you're right or wrong, but which way did the apostle Peter preached to Cornelius?

PCY.
 

DAH

Member
Apr 12, 2018
50
22
8
Northern CA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not saying that you're right or wrong, but which way did the apostle Peter preached to Cornelius?

PCY.



Sometimes people mistake the mystery of Christ with God’s blessing upon the Gentiles.

You can identify when this mistaken definition of the mystery is made because Cornelius in Acts 10 will be presented as a problem for Pauline vs Petrine doctrine.

The line goes like this: Cornelius was a Gentile; Peter preached his gospel to Cornelius; thus, Paul was not the only one to go to Gentiles with the gospel.

Supposedly, this diminishes the importance of Paul’s unique apostleship to the Gentiles (Rom 11:13), and gives evidence that Peter taught the mystery kept secret since the world began (contrast Rom 16:25 to what Peter taught in Acts 3:21).

Peter’s gospel was the kingdom gospel and he was operating under the law. The mystery of Christ is absent from Acts 10.

Gentile Blessing were Prophesied...

If the Pauline mystery of Christ was merely Gentile blessing then it would not be a mystery at all since we find that sort of Gentile involvement in Jesus’ earthly ministry. Jesus blessed the centurion’s Gentile servant in Luke 7:1-8 and the Canaanite dog in Matthew 15:24-28.

We also find Gentile blessing in the prophets in passages such as Isaiah 49:6 where the Holy One is the Restorer of Israel and a light to the Gentiles.

The prophets speak of the Gentiles being blessed THROUGH Israel in Zechariah 8:22-23 or Micah 4:2-4 where Gentiles follow the Jewish road to Zion to receive the blessed teaching of God’s law for the whole earth.

Gentile blessing is not uniquely part of the mystery of Christ.

Gentile blessing was part of God’s prophetic purpose for the earth going back as far as the promises made to the fathers (Romans 15:8-12).

Paul explains in Romans 15 that Gentile blessing was not a mystery. Christ confirmed the promises made to the fathers which included the blessing upon Gentiles THROUGH Abraham’s seed.

Remember, Abraham’s promise was that “in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed” (Gen 12:3). The Gentiles would be blessed at the glorious RISE of God’s chosen people.

“And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.” – Isa 60:3

The Mystery to Gentiles....

Meanwhile, Paul received grace from God to minister the unique mystery of Christ to Gentiles (Romans 5:15-16). He was the apostle of the Gentiles (Rom 11:13).

That Gentiles would be blessed was no mystery. HOW they would be blessed is DIFFERENT according to the revelation of the mystery.

Under prophecy they would be blessed THROUGH Israel and the covenants. The earthly purpose of God is to bless the world (i.e. Gentiles) through his covenanted people Israel.

Under the mystery of Christ Gentiles receive all spiritual blessings DIRECTLY THROUGH Christ and his completed work on the cross. The mystery purpose of God is to bless all men today through the abundance of his grace WITHOUT any covenants.

Peter and the Gentiles

Peter went one time to Gentiles with a gospel in Acts 10. He was not preaching the cross. Israel was destined to be the channel of blessing to the Gentiles anyway (Isa 61:6).

Jesus was prophesied to be a light to the Gentiles (Isa 42:6). Yawn. Old news, there is nothing new here. The Messiah was always part of the covenant to bless the whole world. The mystery of Christ was hidden and not yet revealed in any of the prophets. The mystery is not merely Gentiles receiving blessings.

The mystery of Christ includes salvation offered to all men freely by God’s grace without a covenant in order to form a new creature (Jew and Gentile) that would reside in heavenly places.

Peter teaching a Gentile in Acts 10 provides an example of the difference in Gentile blessing according to the kingdom gospel and Gentile blessing according to the mystery gospel. Cornelius was blessed through the covenant of a law abiding Jew. Paul’s Gentiles received blessing through faith in the preaching of the cross.

No where in Acts 10 does Peter preach the cross - salvation through belief in deah, burial and resurrection (1 Cornthians 15:1-4). He simply tells Cornelious to believ in Jesus - that's it. Additionally Cornelius followed the laws and works as well. Works are not a requirement in the Gospel of Grace. Here's what Petet told Cornelius he had to do to receive salvation:

Acts 10:43
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."

That's not preaching the cross.

Cornelius was blessed THROUGH Israel, as spoken since the world began. Everyone in the age of Grace is saved via the fall of Israel and Gospel of Grace - the mystery kept hidden since the world began.

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather THROUGH THEIR FALL salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
 
Last edited:

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
See:

KINGDOM GOSPEL - preached to Jew only
Acts 9:2 "This Way"
Acts 22:4 "This Way"

PAUL'S GOSPEL / Gospel of Grace with both Jew and Gentile as one, with no separation (Eph 3:1-10)
Acts 19:9 "That Way"
Acts 19:23 "That Way"
Acts 24:22 "That Way"
how are you differentiating between this way and that way, again? the diff in "hodou" and "hodon," i guess? ty
 
Last edited:

DAH

Member
Apr 12, 2018
50
22
8
Northern CA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
how are you differentiating between this way and that way, again? the diff in "hodou" and "hodon," i guess? ty


When Luke writes "this way" it is in context with followers of Jesus' Kingdom Gospel. When Luke refers to "that way" it is in context with Paul's preaching of salvation through belief in the death, burial and resurrection for salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), with no distinction of Jew or Gentile. These are two different Gospel's. One through the blessings of Israel and one through Israel's fall -

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sometimes people mistake the mystery of Christ with God’s blessing upon the Gentiles.

You can identify when this mistaken definition of the mystery is made because Cornelius in Acts 10 will be presented as a problem for Pauline vs Petrine doctrine.

The line goes like this: Cornelius was a Gentile; Peter preached his gospel to Cornelius; thus, Paul was not the only one to go to Gentiles with the gospel.

Supposedly, this diminishes the importance of Paul’s unique apostleship to the Gentiles (Rom 11:13), and gives evidence that Peter taught the mystery kept secret since the world began (contrast Rom 16:25 to what Peter taught in Acts 3:21).

Peter’s gospel was the kingdom gospel and he was operating under the law. The mystery of Christ is absent from Acts 10.

Gentile Blessing were Prophesied...

If the Pauline mystery of Christ was merely Gentile blessing then it would not be a mystery at all since we find that sort of Gentile involvement in Jesus’ earthly ministry. Jesus blessed the centurion’s Gentile servant in Luke 7:1-8 and the Canaanite dog in Matthew 15:24-28.

We also find Gentile blessing in the prophets in passages such as Isaiah 49:6 where the Holy One is the Restorer of Israel and a light to the Gentiles.

The prophets speak of the Gentiles being blessed THROUGH Israel in Zechariah 8:22-23 or Micah 4:2-4 where Gentiles follow the Jewish road to Zion to receive the blessed teaching of God’s law for the whole earth.

Gentile blessing is not uniquely part of the mystery of Christ.

Gentile blessing was part of God’s prophetic purpose for the earth going back as far as the promises made to the fathers (Romans 15:8-12).

Paul explains in Romans 15 that Gentile blessing was not a mystery. Christ confirmed the promises made to the fathers which included the blessing upon Gentiles THROUGH Abraham’s seed.

Remember, Abraham’s promise was that “in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed” (Gen 12:3). The Gentiles would be blessed at the glorious RISE of God’s chosen people.

“And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.” – Isa 60:3

The Mystery to Gentiles....

Meanwhile, Paul received grace from God to minister the unique mystery of Christ to Gentiles (Romans 5:15-16). He was the apostle of the Gentiles (Rom 11:13).

That Gentiles would be blessed was no mystery. HOW they would be blessed is DIFFERENT according to the revelation of the mystery.

Under prophecy they would be blessed THROUGH Israel and the covenants. The earthly purpose of God is to bless the world (i.e. Gentiles) through his covenanted people Israel.

Under the mystery of Christ Gentiles receive all spiritual blessings DIRECTLY THROUGH Christ and his completed work on the cross. The mystery purpose of God is to bless all men today through the abundance of his grace WITHOUT any covenants.

Peter and the Gentiles

Peter went one time to Gentiles with a gospel in Acts 10. He was not preaching the cross. Israel was destined to be the channel of blessing to the Gentiles anyway (Isa 61:6).

Jesus was prophesied to be a light to the Gentiles (Isa 42:6). Yawn. Old news, there is nothing new here. The Messiah was always part of the covenant to bless the whole world. The mystery of Christ was hidden and not yet revealed in any of the prophets. The mystery is not merely Gentiles receiving blessings.

The mystery of Christ includes salvation offered to all men freely by God’s grace without a covenant in order to form a new creature (Jew and Gentile) that would reside in heavenly places.

Peter teaching a Gentile in Acts 10 provides an example of the difference in Gentile blessing according to the kingdom gospel and Gentile blessing according to the mystery gospel. Cornelius was blessed through the covenant of a law abiding Jew. Paul’s Gentiles received blessing through faith in the preaching of the cross.

No where in Acts 10 does Peter preach the cross - salvation through belief in deah, burial and resurrection (1 Cornthians 15:1-4). He simply tells Cornelious to believ in Jesus - that's it. Additionally Cornelius followed the laws and works as well. Works are not a requirement in the Gospel of Grace. Here's what Petet told Cornelius he had to do to receive salvation:

Acts 10:43
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."

That's not preaching the cross.

Cornelius was blessed THROUGH Israel, as spoken since the world began. Everyone in the age of Grace is saved via the fall of Israel and Gospel of Grace - the mystery kept hidden since the world began.

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather THROUGH THEIR FALL salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
first thanks for the reply, but it's not making sense as to what you said.


Gentile blessing is not uniquely part of the mystery of Christ.
Colossians 1:27 "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory".

1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I have a question. "was not Abraham preached the SAME GOSPEL?". and he's the Father of MANY NATIONS. is this not true?.

PCY.
 

DAH

Member
Apr 12, 2018
50
22
8
Northern CA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Did
first thanks for the reply, but it's not making sense as to what you said.



Colossians 1:27 "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory".

1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I have a question. "was not Abraham preached the SAME GOSPEL?". and he's the Father of MANY NATIONS. is this not true?.

PCY.
first thanks for the reply, but it's not making sense as to what you said.



Colossians 1:27 "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory".

1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I have a question. "was not Abraham preached the SAME GOSPEL?". and he's the Father of MANY NATIONS. is this not true?.

PCY.

I dont think Abraham preached anything about believing in Christ, following law / works, or being baptised for salvation. He nearly murdered his son in order to show his faith in God - at which time he was blessed and received a covenant. There is nothing in that history about simply believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ - His blood spilled for the remissionof sins.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Did



I dont think Abraham preached anything about believing in Christ, following law / works, or being baptised for salvation. He nearly murdered his son in order to show his faith in God - at which time he was blessed and received a covenant. There is nothing in that history about simply believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ - His blood spilled for the remissionof sins.
No. I said Abraham was Preached the same Gospel, scripture, Galatians 3:8 "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed".

PCY.
 

DAH

Member
Apr 12, 2018
50
22
8
Northern CA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No. I said Abraham was Preached the same Gospel, scripture, Galatians 3:8 "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed".

PCY.

PART 1 of 3
Abraham's Gospel - as you word it, "Abraham preached the same Gospel" .....This is NOT the Gospel of the Grace of God, The Mystery of God's Grace revealed through Apostle Paul.

It cannot be ignored that Abraham was counted righteous because of his faith in God’s word for a mighty nation, NOT the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Genesis 15:6). Although we now know that Abraham could be justified based upon the then-future propitiatory work of Christ, the message that counted him faithful was the promise of a mighty nation.

As Paul explains, Abraham was ‘strong in faith’ (Romans 4:20).


“And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. “ – Romans 4:21


The specific promise that God made to Abraham was not that a messiah would die for his sins, but that his wife would produce a son although she was barren and beyond her age.

“Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.” – Romans 4:18

Abraham - Gospel (Good News): So, what "good news" did Abraham receive / "preach"? He was going to have children, multiply, granted land, bless nations, get a Kingdom....but NOTHING about the Body of Christ, or Christ crucified for all of our sins here....so, therefor there is nothing about the Mystery of the Gospel of Grace, wherein Gentiles get to go directly to God via the faith in the blood shed on the cross, His burial and His resurrection....no one was looking forward to the cross - not even the 12 Apostles, who repeatedly stated they had no idea what Jesus was talking about when He said he had to die.

Romans 3:30

(KJV Strong's)

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision BY faith, and uncircumcision THROUGH faith.

* justify the circumcision (Israel) BY faith (catalyst for performance)

* uncircumcision (Gentile) THROUGH faith (faith is the medium of our salvation / not the catalyst).

You can keep Abraham and all the Gospels (MMLJ) in the Bible and then tear out all of Paul's epistles - and the result would be that no gentile on earth would ever see Heaven through faith in the cross, death, burial and resurrection by faith alone. Gentiles would have to receive blessings through Israel for entry to an Earthly Kingdom of God.

Paul became God’s unrevealed source for blessing Gentiles. No one before Paul taught Jew and Gentile were equal in Christ (Galatians 3.26-28). Such an idea was unthinkable to Peter. He fought, hammer and tongs, not to go to the Gentile, Cornelius’ house. When he arrived, he told him it was unlawful to associate with him (Acts 10.28). After Peter returned to Jerusalem the believers rebuked him for going to a Gentile (Acts 11.2-3). Such an event demonstrates how alien and radical Paul’s revelation towards Gentiles was. No one before Paul taught the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12.13; Ephesians 3.6; Colossians 3.11). The Twelve knew nothing of it until they learned it from Paul (Ephesians 3.5-7). Paul was “the apostle of the Gentiles” (Romans 11.13; Acts 9.15; Galatians 1.11-12) while Peter and the Twelve were “apostles of Israel.” God revealed “secrets” (μυστήριον) to Paul which pertained to the Church (which is predominantly Gentile) of which the Twelve had no knowledge. Paul proclaimed salvation by faith alone, which was unknown in Israel’s history (Galatians 3.6-9).

God dealt with the entire human race for 2,000 years. He then called Abraham and created a new race, the Jews, through whom He revealed His prophetic plan - ending in a Kingdom on Earth (the Mystery Gospel includes saved souls going to Heavenly places - not an earthly Kingdom). Christ is the King to Israel - Christ is our Lord, Head of our Body; He is never referred to as our King in the Gospel of Grace. During this long period of history, some Gentiles responded to God and were saved under the provisions of the Abrahamic Covenant. The Jews operated under God’s covenants and prophetic plan for 2,000 years until God saved Paul. After this, God revealed to Paul a plan He had kept hidden from Abraham, Moses, and the prophets. The Lord Himself did not reveal it in His earthly ministry and the Twelve knew nothing of it. Since Israel rejected the King and the kingdom, instead of initiating the Day of the Lord, the Tribulation, which was the next event on the prophetic schedule, God delayed His judgment and provided mercy to the world. He saved Paul and revealed a plan in which He could bless Gentiles in spite of Israel’s national disobedience. In this plan, Jew and Gentile became equal in Christ. This plan has operated for almost 2,000 years and will end in the “fullness of the Gentiles” (Roman 11.25), the completion of the Church, the body of Christ. After this, God will remove His Church (Rapture) and revisit His prophetic program with Israel. This program will culminate with His return (Matthew 23.37-39). After this, He will establish his long-anticipated kingdom (Isaiah 11.1-9) - a Kingdom all under Abraham's Covenant will enter.

For the Scriptures to make sense we must let them lay out as they are. When men force one area of Scripture onto another area, mix Israel and the Church, law and grace, salvation by faith alone and salvation by faith and works, the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of the grace of God, the apostleship of the Twelve and Paul’s apostleship, the prophetic plan of Israel and Paul’s revelations to the body of Christ, contradiction and confusion results. God is the same throughout all generations. But His methods of dealing with men through those generations vary. God is sovereign. He does as He pleases. Dealing solely with Gentiles, choosing Israel, revealing the Church, and returning to Israel are His prerogatives.

Abraham begat Isaac; Isaac begat Jacob; Jacob begat twelve sons. Jacob’s name was also Israel, and his sons’ families became the twelve tribes of the nation Israel.

Obviously, Abraham is the father of Israel through his circumcised sons Isaac and Jacob. In what sense would he be our father?

Consequently, many are confused by Paul’s teaching in Romans 4 by thinking we inherit the promises of land, nation, and blessing given to Abraham, and fulfill God’s purpose as spiritual Israel. Not so!

Paul is describing how Israel will receive their promises by faith, because of their father Abraham. However, Paul also presents Abraham as the father of us all that believe.

Abraham’s Fatherhood of Faith - a Pattern for Gentiles, but not the same Gospel - as you state.

Although Abraham was the first progenitor of Israel according to the promise, he was never a part of Israel under the law.

Also, when Abraham was given the promise of a multiplied seed he was not circumcised (Rom 4:10). (Abraham was given the promise starting in Genesis 12 and was circumcised in Genesis 17.)

An uncircumcised non-Israelite who was not under the law was given an unconditional promise in Genesis 15. He believed it. God counted his faith for righteousness (Gen 15:6)....nothing here about salvation in Christ's death, burial and resurrection - so clearly NOT the same Gospel.

It is this righteousness by faith that Abraham fathers in Romans 4 for all, whether they be part of the circumcision or not.

“…that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also…” – Rom 4:11

This pattern of Abraham’s justification by faith without works is what Paul describes regarding the justification of all men.

Abraham was proof to Israel under the law that they did not receive their promise through the law, but by faith (Rom 4:13). Justification by faith establishes the law, just as Paul said in Romans 3:31.

Abraham was also a pattern for those who were not circumcised through his faith in what God told him. It is his faith and not what God told him that is the pattern. God revealed to us something different through Paul (Col 1:25).

Cont...
 

DAH

Member
Apr 12, 2018
50
22
8
Northern CA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
.....Abraham was also a pattern for those who were not circumcised through his faith in what God told him. It is his faith and not what God told him that is the pattern. God revealed to us something different through Paul (Col 1:25).

Cont...[/QUOTE]

Part 2 of 2

We Do Not Inherit Israel’s Promises – NOT the same Gospel in Abraham

Looking to Abraham as a pattern of faith without works for imputed righteousness does not make the Body of Christ part of the covenant of circumcision. Abraham was not circumcised when he was justified by faith!

Neither does it make us spiritual Israel, because Abraham was not part of the nation of Israel one day of his life. He was never under the law and could not call himself Israel!

It also does not make us inheritors of Israel’s purpose of earthly dominion and inheritance. The content of our faith is in the cross, not the covenants of promise that Abraham believed.

When Abraham becomes circumcised and begins to do works by faith he ceases to be a pattern for us and is now the pattern of Israel as James explains to the twelve tribes (James 2:21).

Abraham’s pattern and purpose are different.

Abraham’s pattern was justification by faith without works. Abraham’s purpose was to be father of many nations and to inherit the world.

People make a doctrinal mess in Romans 4 when they partake of Abraham’s purpose instead of his pattern by faith.

Abraham Fathers Two People

Abraham was the physical and spiritual father of the circumcision, the promised nation of Israel, who would inherit the world (Rom 4:13).

By Genesis 15:6 he is also the father of all that believe for righteousness though they be not part of Israel or its promises of earthly dominion.

The faith of Abraham was in the hope of a multiplied seed (Rom 4:18). That seed would eventually become the nation that would rule over the other nations of the world.

Our faith is not in a multiplied seed, but a person and his finished work, a singular seed (Gal 3:16)...Christ

“But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.” – Rom 4:24-25

Abraham’s faith in a multiplied seed is powerless to save us. Abraham’s faith in what God told him is the pattern by which we are imputed righteousness (Rom 4:23-24)....a PATTERN, not Gospel

God told us to put our faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for our offenses and justification, not Abraham’s covenants of promise.

Abraham’s paternity of “us all” is through his pattern of faith without works and not his promised purpose for the earth.

END...
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands

DAH

Member
Apr 12, 2018
50
22
8
Northern CA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Bible is not theory - I didnt make up the verses. I just simply read what they say and in their context - they are not kept secret to us; God tells us to study (2 Tim 2:15) - he never tells us we need a PhD to decipher what he's written to us. Truth is not validated by familiarity in what one hears from the pulpit. Truth is validated by truth - The Word. I know the whole Bible is for us, but it's not all written to us. We must rightly divide the truth - truth for Israel and truth directed to thr gentile in the age of Grace.

I tried to answer simply earlier on. That's the best I can do. There are simply diffent ways Luke uses "this way" and "that way" - clearly differing in their context, one associated with Kingdom Gospel and one of Gospel of Grace - two very different Gospels:

Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that "the gospel of the uncircumcision" was committed unto me, as "the gospel of the circumcision" was unto Peter;

Best wishes in your walk with God and your studies of His Word.
 

DAH

Member
Apr 12, 2018
50
22
8
Northern CA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
interesting in theory, and i'm trying to keep an open mind here, but you did not answer my question wadr. I'm asking how you differentiate the two?

Acts 9:2
Acts 19:9
both hodos
Strong's Greek: 3598. ὁδός (hodos) -- a way, road
The Bible is not theory - I didnt make up the verses. I just simply read what they say and in their context - they are not kept secret to us; God tells us to study (2 Tim 2:15) - he never tells us we need a PhD to decipher what he's written to us. Truth is not validated by familiarity in what one hears from the pulpit. Truth is validated by truth - The Word. I know the whole Bible is for us, but it's not all written to us. We must rightly divide the truth - truth for Israel and truth directed to thr gentile in the age of Grace.

I tried to answer simply earlier on. That's the best I can do. There are simply diffent ways Luke uses "this way" and "that way" - clearly differing in their context, one associated with Kingdom Gospel and one of Gospel of Grace - two very different Gospels:

Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that "the gospel of the uncircumcision" was committed unto me, as "the gospel of the circumcision" was unto Peter;

Best wishes in your walk with God and your studies of His Word.

Acts 19:9 - Hodos is a "manner of thinking, feeling" The Way here, written as "THAT way" is referencing Paul's Gospel - which was being preached before the multitude in Acts 19:8-9 "disputing" the Kingdom of God - this caused the Jews there to speak evil of "that way" which was Paul's Gospel - Mystery message. Clearly shocking to a nation who followed Jesus - who Himself referred to Gentiles as a dog and directed his Apostles not to go the way of the Gentile.

Acts 9:2 again - Hodos - a way of thinking - which here is refering to the Kingdom Gospel. The mystery Gospel of grace was not revealed here, the "way" in this context has to be the Kingdom Gospel. Paul was seeking permission to leave Jerusalem to track down and persecute followers of any one who followed "this way"
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Bible is not theory - I didnt make up the verses. I just simply read what they say and in their context - they are not kept secret to us; God tells us to study (2 Tim 2:15) - he never tells us we need a PhD to decipher what he's written to us. Truth is not validated by familiarity in what one hears from the pulpit. Truth is validated by truth - The Word. I know the whole Bible is for us, but it's not all written to us. We must rightly divide the truth - truth for Israel and truth directed to thr gentile in the age of Grace.

I tried to answer simply earlier on. That's the best I can do. There are simply diffent ways Luke uses "this way" and "that way" - clearly differing in their context, one associated with Kingdom Gospel and one of Gospel of Grace - two very different Gospels:

Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that "the gospel of the uncircumcision" was committed unto me, as "the gospel of the circumcision" was unto Peter;

Best wishes in your walk with God and your studies of His Word.
I'm sorry I just don't see any difference. see the same Paul was of the WAY, by a different name, scripture, Acts 24:1 "And after five days Ananias the high priest descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul.

Acts 24:2 "And when he was called forth, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying, Seeing that by thee we enjoy great quietness, and that very worthy deeds are done unto this nation by thy providence,

Acts 24:3 "We accept it always, and in all places, most noble Felix, with all thankfulness.

Acts 24:4 "Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words.

Acts 24:5 "For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes".

here the Nazarenes is referred to "Christian". and the Nazarenes was the sect "the WAY".

the message didn't change.

PCY.
 

DAH

Member
Apr 12, 2018
50
22
8
Northern CA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm sorry I just don't see any difference. see the same Paul was of the WAY, by a different name, scripture, Acts 24:1 "And after five days Ananias the high priest descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul.

Acts 24:2 "And when he was called forth, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying, Seeing that by thee we enjoy great quietness, and that very worthy deeds are done unto this nation by thy providence,

Acts 24:3 "We accept it always, and in all places, most noble Felix, with all thankfulness.

Acts 24:4 "Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words.

Acts 24:5 "For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes".

here the Nazarenes is referred to "Christian". and the Nazarenes was the sect "the WAY".

the message didn't change.

PCY.


Touche -

Acts 24:5
(KJV Strong's)
5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the SECT of the Nazarenes:

A "SECT" is a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.

Paul's Gospel of Grace is different than the Gospel preached by the 12. They all followed Christ - but had two different - distinct Gospels. Paul's new message and directive from Christ came with actions as defined in "sect" above - refinements and distinctions of belief or practice.

Later in the SAME chapter of Acts 24, discussing the SAME topic and SAME context - Acts 24:22 Luke narrows down "the SECT of the Nazarene" to "that way" - a distinction from "this way" (another sect if you well)

Acts 24:22
(KJV Strong's)
22 And when Felix heard these things, having more perfect knowledge of THAT WAY, he deferred them, and said, When Lysias the chief captain shall come down, I will know the uttermost of your matter.

Felix had more perfect knowledge of the Mystery Gospel - Paul's Gospel - a different Gospel.

So yes - as stated prior - the message does change.
 
Last edited:

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Acts 19:9 - Hodos is a "manner of thinking, feeling" The Way here, written as "THAT way" is referencing Paul's Gospel - which was being preached before the multitude in Acts 19:8-9 "disputing" the Kingdom of God - this caused the Jews there to speak evil of "that way" which was Paul's Gospel - Mystery message. Clearly shocking to a nation who followed Jesus - who Himself referred to Gentiles as a dog and directed his Apostles not to go the way of the Gentile.

Acts 9:2 again - Hodos - a way of thinking - which here is refering to the Kingdom Gospel. The mystery Gospel of grace was not revealed here, the "way" in this context has to be the Kingdom Gospel. Paul was seeking permission to leave Jerusalem to track down and persecute followers of any one who followed "this way"
interesting, but unsupported, at least as near as i can tell? There is no "this way" and "that way," at least not that has been demonstrated yet?

they are not kept secret to us
Mystery Gospel
ok, ty
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
the only thing I see is the Jews and Gentiles are the same in God's eyes.

both have to come to God in FAITH. one by faith and the other through faith. scripture, Romans 3:29 "Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also".

Romans 3:9 "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin".

Romans 3:30 "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith".

PCY.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
interesting, but unsupported, at least as near as i can tell? There is no "this way" and "that way," at least not that has been demonstrated yet?
correct, Jesus said, ....

John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:4 "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 14:5 "Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me".

PCY.
 

DAH

Member
Apr 12, 2018
50
22
8
Northern CA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
interesting, but unsupported, at least as near as i can tell? There is no "this way" and "that way," at least not that has been demonstrated yet?


ok, ty

If words have meaning - then there is a clear distinction and reason for Luke choosing to write "This way" versus "That way" - especially when reading context, each verse containing these different phrases match the context of identifying the two different messages preached by the 12 and another by Paul. I don't know what the odds are that those phrases would line up so perfectly in context as a happen stance. Grammatically they sound odd when read - so they appear to be very intentional and delineative. The KJV got the translations correct - every other Bible changes the verbiage.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009