I think I understand your position even though I do not agree with it. I will not wade into the details with you again at the moment. Simply let us allow God to give the increase as He surely will when it is appropriate according to Him.
The whole world will be deceived
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Most have a problem with Acts 2:38 thinking those who asked Peter what to do weren't saved yet. But they believed (were saved according to Jesus) or they would not have asked. So they had the Holy Spirit, but the gift of the Holy Spirit, i.e., the baptism of the Holy Spirit came through repentance.
I do see the distinction you make between they "had the Holy Spirit" and they had the "gift of the Holy Spirit". I don't use the same words precisely but in part I agree and do something similar. I won't express any disagreements at the moment as I am uncertain it would presently edify anyone...
Why are you trying to turn Scripture on its head so that your false gospel can be accommodated?
Why would Peter tell them that they would receive the Holy Spirit if they already had the Holy Spirit? Wouldn't that be pure foolishness?
The gift of the Holy Spirit is identical to the baptism with the Holy Spirit, and that gift is given only AFTER repentance and faith in Christ. Therefore Peter commanded them to repent and they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Water baptism would follow (as we see in Acts 10).
The New Birth and the Baptism are not the same. The Baptism comes through repentance. Acts 2:38.
Dave, there can be no New Birth without the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, and that is only possible AFTER a person receives the gift of the Holy Spirit Himself (the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit). And until and unless a person obeys the Gospel (repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ) he cannot be born again. Therefore Peter told the Jews to repent and they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. So the biblical sequence of events is:
OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL--->THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST--->THE NEW BIRTH
Davy
Well-Known Member
Yes, that Christ's Salvation has come on earth to those who believe, is what our Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul taught.
But Paul also taught about the coming false one at the end of this world, repeating warnings our Lord Jesus gave for the great tribulation timing at the very end. So God's Word does show us Christ's physical Kingdom with Him reigning over all peoples and nations with His elect is not manifest on earth just yet. The devil has already been judged and sentenced to perish like Jesus said in The Gospel. But He didn't say the devil was destroyed just yet, but warned us how the devil will work for the very end, because he knows he has a short time.
Our Lord Jesus even told us that the devil is coming to our world, and has nothing in Him (John 14:30). Apostle John said to the brethren how they had already heard that antichrist shall come (1 John 2:18), and that was when our Lord Jesus foretold of when Satan is cast out...
John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
KJV
John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
KJV
That casting out of John 12:31 is not about our Lord Jesus' crucifixion casting Satan out of Heaven to roam the earth. Even back in the Book of Job we were shown how Satan had power to roam Heaven and earth when he appeared before God's Throne. Our Lord Jesus is pointing to the Rev.12:7-9 casting out for the future great tribulation timing. What many brethren don't understand is how our Heavenly Father is using Satan to prune with in the last days. That's why our Lord Jesus warned His servants who listen to Him in His Word. Those who listen to men instead will be deceived and not understand this casting out event according to God's Word.
Our Lord Jesus wasn't speaking of all brethren. He was speaking of His very elect servants. And in Revelation He showed those are about His servants that are sealed in prep for the tribulation. Where do you think those on the 'fly away' pre-trib rapture theory stand in that, for they are told they will be raptured prior to Satan's tribulation at the end? Thus there will... be deceived Christian brethren for the end of this world when Satan as the coming pseudo-Christ shows up. And our Lord Jesus will shut the door on those, saying He never knew them.
Look further at the Matthew 24:24 phrase "false Christs" in the Greek, and in the whole context of the 23rd thru 26th section of verses. The context is about a singular false-Messiah, not many false Christs. Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defined that phrase as 'a spurious Messiah' (no.5580). The KJV (which I mostly use) did not keep to the tense of those four verses when translating to English. In Matthew 24:4-5 is where our Lord Jesus is warning about the idea of many coming in His name, saying they are Christ.
What He revealed there is the idea of many coming only 'saying'... they are Christ, and then about a singular false Christ that will come to work great signs and wonders that if possible would deceive even His very elect. So He actually gave the same contrast like Apostle John did in 1 John 2:18 that the brethren had already heard that "antichrist" shall come, vs. the "many antichrists" that were already here at work. Apostle Paul gave the same idea when he warned of the singular false one coming to Jerusalem to sit in the temple of God and play God, vs. the "mystery of iniquity" which is about the "many antichrists" idea. So 3 times in God's Word we have been given that comparison. But of course, men's doctrines are designed to take that understanding away from you IF you allow it.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
There seems to be involved confusion on this thread.
In the old testament the holy spirit fell on some, not all, but indwelt none. There was no born again.
In the new testament the holy spirit indwells and we are born again.
The bible says there will be many anti-christs but only one AC.
Salvation in the old testament was a promise that was delivered in reality with the new birth at the resurrection of Christ to the old testament saints.
Currently the new birth is given at repentance.
After the rapture Israel will return as covenant with the new covenant to the house's of Israel and Judah. Once again the new birth him to promise, not instant.
In the old testament the holy spirit fell on some, not all, but indwelt none. There was no born again.
In the new testament the holy spirit indwells and we are born again.
The bible says there will be many anti-christs but only one AC.
Salvation in the old testament was a promise that was delivered in reality with the new birth at the resurrection of Christ to the old testament saints.
Currently the new birth is given at repentance.
After the rapture Israel will return as covenant with the new covenant to the house's of Israel and Judah. Once again the new birth him to promise, not instant.
You are teaching salvation by works. A person must have the Holy Spirit before they can believe the gospel. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit comes through repentance and holiness according to New Covenant standards.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Nope, it's salvation according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace. That's how biblical our position is.
Yours is "salvation" by your own determination and will to your own boasting. Then you try to say it's all God. That's how unbiblical you are and why your gospel is false and man made.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
If you think people must flex the arm of the flesh in order to be saved, you are trusting in the wrong savior.
It's bible. How can the flesh save you? It's the flesh God must save you from. And free will is the arm of the flesh many trust in instead of Christ.
"Obeys" = works. It is before one can discern the true Christ that God imparts the New Birth. The Baptism is in the New Birth but only develops after a person repents and begins walking in the Spirit.
FHII
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What do you make of this verse?
Ephesians 1:13 KJV
In whom ye also trusted , after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Keep reading. Verse 19 shows we believed by God's power, the same power that raised Christ. Or do you still want to take credit for yourself?
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
That's all you have, nothing biblical. Elected to salvation by grace, gifted with faith and repentance = Soli Deo Gloria and the true Gospel.
But, tell us more about how you did it. You and what you did are your favorite subject.
Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have before they can discern and believe in the true Christ.. But the gift of the Holy Spirit is the promise to all who repent (Acts 2:38). Paul is focusing on the promise of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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