The whole world will be deceived

[FHII]

Keep reading. Verse 19 shows we believed by God's power, the same power that raised Christ. Or do you still want to take credit for yourself?

That verse says," and what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward that believe..." The word "believe" is present tense, not past tense. So this verse doesn't say we were given his power to believe (though I am not against such a notion); it says we were given the power because we believe.

Besides, I was commenting on the notion that we must have the Holy Spirit before we believe. The verse I quoted says we are sealed by the holy spirit of promise after we believe the gospel.

 

[FHII]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have before they can discern and believe in the true Christ.. But the gift of the Holy Spirit is the promise to all who repent (Acts 2:38). Paul is focusing on the promise of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I don't see how that addresses eph 1:13. Acts 2:38 says,..."repent and be bapised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost". Peter just preached to them about Jesus. So they heard the gospel. It is after the repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus that they would receive the gift.

Even with verse I fail to see that you must have the Holy Ghost before you believe the gospel. I believe we are foreordained to believe the gospel, but i dail to see what you are saying.

 

[Waiting on him]

That verse says," and what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward that believe..." The word "believe" is present tense, not past tense. So this verse doesn't say we were given his power to believe (though I am not against such a notion); it says we were given the power because we believe.

Besides, I was commenting on the notion that we must have the Holy Spirit before we believe. The verse I quoted says we are sealed by the holy spirit of promise after we believe the gospel.

Ephesians 1:19 KJV
[19] And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Tecarta BibleEven the power to believe comes from him.

 

[CoreIssue]

That's all you have, nothing biblical. Elected to salvation by grace, gifted with faith and repentance = Soli Deo Gloria and the true Gospel.

But, tell us more about how you did it. You and what you did are your favorite subject.

Freewill repentance, which you do not believe in.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

That verse says," and what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward that believe..."

Of course, purposefully, you stopped the verse right there. It goes on to say "his power toward us WHO BELIEVE ACCORDING TO THE WORKING OF HIS GREAT MIGHT that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead..."

"According" there in the text means "through" or "down from," and the source is God, not us. It's right there in the text if you keep reading. Therefore that belief is resurrection power that he worked in us. Please stop cutting the passage off and pointing to yourself. The text shows clearly this belief is from God.

Furthermore, your present tense argument doesn't prove your theory or change that the text shows faith was not innate, inherent. It came from God. It is the same power that raised Christ. Soli Deo Gloria.

 

[FHII]

The text shows clearly this belief is from God.

Did I disagree? Read more carefully.

I cut the verse off because the rest of the verse had nothing to do with my question. That is about whether we must receive the Holy Ghost before we believe. The verse has nothing to do with that question at all. I only addressed it because someone brought it up.

So again, back off from your pet arguements if you are going to respond to my post. If you actually answer my question maybe I will address yours.

Heck.... I can even give you better scripture to hang that belief on.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Did I disagree? Read more carefully

Um, of course you disagreed, here's what you stated:

So this verse doesn't say we were given his power to believe (though I am not against such a notion); it says we were given the power because we believe.

You did disagree with what I said in our discussion in that you said we aren't given power to believe in response to me showing He does grant this to us. I then showed you your error and why you cut off the verse.

Now you're trying to act like you were talking about something else. Just stop it dude. You've been proven wrong so man up and accept you were refuted, like a man. Try honesty, it's Christian behavior.

You stated we aren't given power to believe, Scripture shows you're in error. That was our discussion. Goodness sake some of you people...

 

[FHII]

Um, of course you disagreed, here's what you stated:

You did

Read it again. Did you note me saying I wasn't against such a notion? How is that disagreeing. Fact is you missed a small but key error you made in paraphrasing the verse, along with other statements I made.

In any sense, i am not going to argue about the arguement. I want to but I will not. As I stated, if you want to address my question maybe I will address yours. Yours is quite interesting and worth discussing, but not as a highjaking discussion.

Once again, it was stated that we must receive the holy ghost before we believe. My question (and I didn't even disagree, nor did I agree) is how that stacks up to eph 1:13? One person did answer the question directly, but it simply wasn't enough for me.

But... Preacher4truth... You may not be the person I discuss it with. I don't appreciate your tone nor insinuation that I am dishonest.

Anyone else though...

 

[n2thelight]

Been saying this since I joined this site,if one understands the three ages,scripture will just really come alive!!!

Understand why God choose certain people ,it's not just because He knows,it's much deeper,it's the difference in the milk from the meat

 

[n2thelight]

There seems to be involved confusion on this thread.

In the old testament the holy spirit fell on some, not all, but indwelt none. There was no born again.

In the new testament the holy spirit indwells and we are born again.

The bible says there will be many anti-christs but only one AC.

Salvation in the old testament was a promise that was delivered in reality with the new birth at the resurrection of Christ to the old testament saints.

Currently the new birth is given at repentance.

After the rapture Israel will return as covenant with the new covenant to the house's of Israel and Judah. Once again the new birth him to promise, not instant.

Do you really understand what it means to be born again?

 

[aspen]

What does the below verse mean to you

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

I ask because,in the world Christians should not be deceived,however they are the only ones that can be,as the rest of the world already are.

Guess this is just a statement more so than a thread,however,please think about it,especially those who believe in a rapture

Seems like a Garden reference to me. Satan deceived the whole world through A&E. This thread raises a few important issues, but I think it also complicates the meaning of the verse in an attempt to tie it to theory after theory....indeed, I would hardly be surprised if Kevin Bacon is connected somehow

 

[n2thelight]

Seems like a Garden reference to me. Satan deceived the whole world through A&E. This thread raises a few important issues, but I think it also complicates the meaning of the verse in an attempt to tie it to theory after theory....indeed, I would hardly be surprised if Kevin Bacon is connected somehow

I understand what you are saying,but in the end (times)look at the below

Revelation 13:11 "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

The above verses have yet to happen

The deception in the end is satan pretending to be(the Lamb) Christ...

 

[aspen]

I understand what you are saying,but in the end (times)look at the below

Revelation 13:11 "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

The above verses have yet to happen

Ok

Whether the events have happened or not, it doesn’t negate the fact that A&E were deceived and their acquired tendency to be deceived has been past down throughout the history of humanity. Christ opens eyes, but he does not erase this tendency - instead, he tells us to practice our sanctification by loving others in spite of it.

 

[n2thelight]

Ok

Whether the events have happened or not, it doesn’t negate the fact that A&E were deceived and their acquired tendency to be deceived has been past down throughout the history of humanity. Christ opens eyes, but he does not erase this tendency - instead, he tells us to practice our sanctification by loving others in spite of it.

I can agree with that,for as Christ said many shall come in my name and deceive and just like he(satan)appeared to them,he shall appear to us,meaning we shall see him live and in color.he is the ultimate deceptor

 

[Dave L]

I don't see how that addresses eph 1:13. Acts 2:38 says,..."repent and be bapised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost". Peter just preached to them about Jesus. So they heard the gospel. It is after the repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus that they would receive the gift.

Even with verse I fail to see that you must have the Holy Ghost before you believe the gospel. I believe we are foreordained to believe the gospel, but i dail to see what you are saying.

When did Peter and the apostles receive the Holy Spirit? Peter says; “Therefore, if God gave them the same gift that He also gave to us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, how could I possibly hinder God?”” (Acts 11:17) (HCSB) Peter and the apostles believed on Jesus as the Messiah throughout the gospels. Long before Pentecost.

Was Peter's audience in Acts 2:38 made up of born again Jews, believers? Yes, or they would not have asked for instructions about what to do. So these too had the Holy Spirit New Birth. But the gift of the Holy Spirit, the promised baptism came only through repentance. That is, repentance brings the baptism to those born again through repentance, New Covenant style.

If we walk after the flesh we might be born again but lukewarm. But if we walk after the Spirit, we become Baptized in him. And so Acts 2:38 is about walking in the light of the New Covenant which Baptizes us in the Holy Spirit the more repentant we become.

 

[Davy]

In this scripture Paul is referring to a false prophet, judaizer etc...

That's a popular tradition taught in many pulpits, based on the event of Satan using Apostle Peter to tempt our Lord Jesus.

But God's Word reveals that 'son of perdition' will be Satan himself, for the only one born in the flesh that has done great signs and miracles to show peoples from all nations that He is God is our Lord Jesus Christ. And the Antichrist which Paul warned us about there in 2 Thessalonians 2 is one who will work great signs and lying wonders, meaning a fake on the level of power like our Lord Jesus worked when on earth at His first coming. Even in Matthew 24:23-26 our Lord Jesus warned of the level of supernatural working that coming pseudo-Christ will work, that if possible it would deceive even Christ's very elect.

So no, that won't be some flesh born man; it will be Satan himself on earth, in our dimension, working those great signs and wonders while claiming to be God and over all that is worshiped or called God, like Paul showed. Paul even used the idea of the "another Jesus" in 2 Corinthians 11 to reveal this, and said that Satan comes disguised as an angel of light (KJV "transformed" actually means 'disguised' in the Greek).

 

[CoreIssue]

Do you really understand what it means to be born again?

Yes

 

[Waiting on him]

That's a popular tradition taught in many pulpits, based on the event of Satan using Apostle Peter to tempt our Lord Jesus.

But God's Word reveals that 'son of perdition' will be Satan himself, for the only one born in the flesh that has done great signs and miracles to show peoples from all nations that He is God is our Lord Jesus Christ. And the Antichrist which Paul warned us about there in 2 Thessalonians 2 is one who will work great signs and lying wonders, meaning a fake on the level of power like our Lord Jesus worked when on earth at His first coming. Even in Matthew 24:23-26 our Lord Jesus warned of the level of supernatural working that coming pseudo-Christ will work, that if possible it would deceive even Christ's very elect.

So no, that won't be some flesh born man; it will be Satan himself on earth, in our dimension, working those great signs and wonders while claiming to be God and over all that is worshiped or called God, like Paul showed. Paul even used the idea of the "another Jesus" in 2 Corinthians 11 to reveal this, and said that Satan comes disguised as an angel of light (KJV "transformed" actually means 'disguised' in the Greek).

The messenger of Satan in Corinthians was a judaizer. This man was the thorn in Paul’s flesh. As for the lying signs and wonders, visit your local charismatic church.

 

[Enoch111]

The messenger of Satan in Corinthians was a judaizer.

He was not a man but a PHYSICAL DISABILITY in Paul created by Satan. Paul speaks of his body as his *flesh* -- "...there was given to me a thorn in the flesh [THE BODY], the messenger of Satan to buffet me...

Some say it was poor eyesight. Others that he had been physically beaten and had some deformity as a result of those beatings. We just don't know, except that it was NOT a Judaizer.

 

[Waiting on him]

He was not a man but a PHYSICAL DISABILITY in Paul created by Satan. Paul speaks of his body as his *flesh* -- "...there was given to me a thorn in the flesh [THE BODY], the messenger of Satan to buffet me...

Some say it was poor eyesight. Others that he had been physically beaten and had some deformity as a result of those beatings. We just don't know, except that it was NOT a Judaizer.

1 Corinthians 9:3 KJV
[3] Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,

Tecarta BibleApon a closer read you’ll see that Paul’s character is being assaulted, the reason for this is to humble him so he is not exalted above others. The thorn was given from God. Those greatest among you will be your servant