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Featured The Work of The Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Mungo, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Was “the Spirit of Christ” in the prophets in the OT signifying before hand the sufferings of Christ?
     
  2. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    It was an actual event just as what happened at Pentecost was a real event.

    But the indentifier of those events, Pentecost and Jesus' Passion and death was a figure of speech.

    To a Jew the name 'baptism' meant with water. It was a ritual bathing [Hebrew tevilah] in water going back to Leviticus. The name baptism was qualified in the NT because there were two baptism's with water mentioned - John's baptism and baptism 'in the name of the Lord Jesus'. You can see both terms in Acts 19:1-7. As the term was very familiar it could be used as a figure of speech to refer to other unfamiliar - yet to take place - events.
     
  3. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    IF ONE IS JEWISH, OR GENTILE, OR WHAT EVER. Baptism is an "ACTION". the identifer pentecost tell us where the "ACTION" took place. his Passion identifies what type of DEATH, (on the Cross). be it in death, or rebirth, or working on a new job. baptism just describe an action. as with water Baptism, it describe your Pardon, by (DEATH). and on Pentecost, baptism describe your empowerment, (to Life).

    PICJAG.
     
  4. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Yes....and this refers to a workman who worked with his hands. But there is a prophetic meaning to this. It involves the way God builds His spiritual house (not made with hands).

    So the OT has these spiritual and prophetic statements that are meant to be understood in the future tense. One would have to see that the reference to...and in order...wisdom, understanding and knowledge correspond prophetically with gold, silver and bronze. Just like love, faith and hope are mentioned by Paul. (of course Paul says faith, hope and love...in that order...except he states that the greatest is love...thus changing the order.)

    God hides things in His word...it is up to us to look into it.

    So then God fills people with His Spirit in order to build His house. That is the pattern. Even when speaking of a workman/artisan doing outside physical works.

    The OT is about outward things. The NT is about inward things.The OT is about an outward holiness. And the NT is about an inward holiness.
     
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  5. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I'm still confused.

    I can say this. I see the people in the Old Testament as real people; and I believe God loved them. They are more than symbols for Jesus. There are patterns that are similar, to be sure, since God's methods are consistent.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  6. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    You look as if you're avoiding something to me -- people could have the Spirit in them in the Old Testament era. When Israel was told to write things on their hearts, it seems like a real struggle to make that about outward holiness.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  7. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Baptism is a NOUN =an indentifier.

    Noun
    Grammar a word (other than a pronoun) used to identify any of a class of people, places, or things (common noun), or to name a particular one of these (proper noun)
    (Concise Oxford English Dictionary)

    Baptise is a VERB - the action

    Verb

    Grammar a word used to describe an action, state, or occurrence, and forming the main part of the predicate of a sentence, such as run, become, or happen (Concise Oxford English Dictionary).

    Event

    Event - a thing that takes place. (Concise Oxford English Dictionary)
    An event is something that happens. (Collins English Dictionary)

    We may use the term to refer to something that happened once at one time and place, or as a term to describe something that happens in many places and times but with common characteristics. In this latter sense there is usually some qualifier to identify a particular occurrence.

    I want to focus on four attributes of an event.
    1. a word or phrase that identifies the event - a noun.
    2. a description of what happens in the event - a verb
    3. conditions that initiates/triggers the event.
    4. the purpose of the event (outcomes)
    I live in England. We have a Monarch (The Queen). A Monarch has a Coronation [name of the event] where he/she is crowned [what happens] as Monarch and Head of State [the purpose]. The trigger is the death of the previous Monarch. The New Monarch, by law, actually becomes king/queen immediately on the death of a Monarch but the Coronation normally takes place about 9 months after that.

    When it comes to baptism and Pentecost these distinctions are important.
    In scripture Baptism is the name of an event. However there is more than one event identified by the term “baptism”. One is the “baptism of John” or "John's baptism" [or baptism of John] (Mt 21:25, Lk 20:4, Acts 19:3). Another is “baptism in the name of Jesus [or the Lord Jesus, or Jesus Christ]” (Acts 2:38, 10:48, 8:16,19:5). Although there are some common characteristics between these two events (they are both baptism with water) they are distinct enough to be identified differently in scripture.

    That I maintain is because they had different purposes and different conditions to initiate the event.

    What happened to the disciples in Acts 2:1-4 (Pentecost) was also an event. However in scripture it was never given a name. When something similar happened to Cornelius and his family, Peter has to describe it by what happened - the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning (Acts 11:15).

    A name was not given to that event until the late 19th century (by R A Torrey). That name was 'baptism with the Holy Spirit'. If anyone knows of an earlier occurrence I would like to know.

    There are four occurrences in scripture that are now commonly referred to as 'baptism with the Holy Spirit' but they have some different characteristics.
    1. Pentecost:
    a) name - none
    b) description - baptised by the Holy Spirit (as prophesied by Jesus and JtB) with associated events of a sounds like rushing wind, visible tongues of fire, gift of tongues.
    c) initiated by - God
    d) purpose - to equip the apostles to be witnesses for Christ and with power for ministry (Acts 1:8 & Lk 24:48)

    2. Cornelius and household (Acts 10)
    a) name - none
    b) description - baptised by the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:15-16) with the associated event of the gift of tongues. But note there was no sound of wind and no tongues of fire.
    c) initiated - by God
    d) purpose to fulfill Joels prophecy ( I will pour out my Spirit on all mankind) and to to persuade the Jews that Gentiles had a right to the kingdom of God, as well as Jews (Acts 10:45, 11:17, 15:8).

    3. Samaria (Acts 8:14-17) and Ephesus (Acts 19:6)
    a) name - none
    b) description
    - Samaria: they received the Holy Spirit
    - Ephesus: the Holy Spirit came upon them with the associated event of the gift of tongues
    c) initiated - by an apostle laying hands on them
    d) purpose - ??

    Cornelius is clearly the same event as Pentecost - scripture indicates that (even without the wind and tongues of fire). But are Samaria and Ephesus the same as Pentecost? There are significant differences in both the initiation and the purpose (lack of).

    What then of “Baptism with the Holy Spirit”?
    We need to recognise that is a man made name to a scriptural event. But scripture itself does not give the event referred to a name.

    John and Jesus refer to being “baptised with the Holy Spirit”. But that is a description of the event not a name (like saying “it rained”).

    There is nothing wrong with using the name “baptism with the Holy Spirit” as long as we recognise that it is a man made name not a biblical one.

    Moreover there are two different events that referred to by this name, different in that they are initiated differently.

    The outpouring to the Holy Spirit which occurred at Pentecost, and with Cornelius and his household, happened unexpectedly and was initiated by God. The falling of the Holy Spirit upon the Samaritans (Acts 8) and on the twelve men at Ephesus (Acts 19) was initiated by a man.
    Were they truly the same event?
















     
  8. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    The OT was about sanctifying yourself. ...washing and putting on certain clothing and doing certain rituals. Outside things...like a temple built by human hands. In the NT the temple becomes they who enter into Christ....to have the presence of God within....as well as upon....when you consider 2 or 3 people who all have entered into Christ and are together in one place.

    If you can't tell the difference between OT holiness and NT holiness...then you need to be born again...there's no comparison and explanation that will suffice. You will need to meet the Lord for yourself and actually SEE the kingdom of God in the spiritual realm in a place that no human hand can build anything.
     
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  9. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    ok. It is my fault ...obviously I’m having trouble communicating what I want to say.
     
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  10. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

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    I believe that we have a measure of the Holy Spirit in us, at the time of our salvation. I believe there is a day when we become filled with the Spirit ...usually an awesome experience never forgotten , like the day when we were first saved...never forgotten.

    And I believe when in active service on any level the Holy Spirit comes upon....so, the anointing is within and upon...( as the ark of the covenant was covered inside and outside with gold. )

    I also believe that as Paul says- " Be being filled with the Spirit".
    A continual refresh and infill as we wait upon Him .

    .
     
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  11. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    baptism with Living water. John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water (H2O)shall thirst again: [14] But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after (the Spirit of)righteousness: for they shall be filled.(with the Spirit of righteousness)

    Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    Philippians 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ(The Living water), unto the glory and praise of God.

    ...Whosoever drinketh of this water (H2O)shall thirst again:
     
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  12. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for those condescending remarks.

    What you seem to miss is that the ceremonial things were meant as reminders to do the spiritual ones as well; and it is not as you portray anyway since Israel was given commandments such as the one to circumcise their hearts.

    Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

    Deuteronomy 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

    Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

    Deuteronomy 11:18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
     
  13. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Nice verses.
    But what are you trying to say with them?

    Do you have a point to make?
     
  14. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Only that the Baptism of the Spirit of righteousness is greater than h2o which was as circumcision of the flesh pointing to the greater circumcision of the foreskin of the heart. Christ said I AM the living water. Revelation 22:1
    And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

    Christ IS THE river of the Spirit of righteousness (a pure river of water of life) proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
    To be fully submersed in to this river...raised up unto New Life...one has to go before the throne of God and be baptized of that One Spirit, that One drink, that One Life...which is His Life He gives freely...in reconciliation unto God. John 7:37-41 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. [38] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.(water of Life) [39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given ; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) [40] Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet. [41] Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?

    Christ (the Spirit of righteousness) comes forth out from the throne of God. John 16:27-30 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. [28] I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. [29] His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. [30] Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

    John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
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  15. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    THis is crazy stuff.

    John 4:13-14 says nothing about baptism with living water
    In Rev 22:1 Jesus doesn't say he is the river of life.
    Jesus is not Living water - the Holy Spirit is (John 7:39)
    Jesus is not the Spirit of righteousness

    You just make stuff up..
     
  16. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    what Spirit are you baptized of? Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

    2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

    Revelation 1:15-18 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. [16] And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. [17] And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: [18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    Won’t argue over it though. Just not sure how you say the Spirit of the living God and the Spirit of righteousness which bears the fruit of righteousness is not Christ. What Spirit was He of then?
     
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  17. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Revelation and regeneration and the need for such is not condescension. Spiritual things don't make sense in the human mind. One must see the foreshadow as well as the prophetic fulfillment. It is assumed by many that these are straightforward...yet the confusion persists in many.

    I'm not trying to take away anything from you. Pride goes before a fall. And pride does not comprehend spiritual things...as it is carnally motivated.

    Not everyone has received the Spirit.

    And Israel and we ourselves cannot circumcise their/our own hearts just like we can't crucify ourselves. They are the works of God. (ALL of Israel was uncircumcised in the heart.)
     
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  18. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    None of those quotes say that Jesus is the Spirit of righteousness.
     
  19. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    A metaphor is a figure of speech that describes an object or action in a way that isn't literally true, but helps explain an idea or make a comparison. ... A metaphor states that one thing is another thing. It equates those two things not because they actually are the same, but for the sake of comparison or symbolism.

    This can be found at https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1PRFI_enUS866US866&sxsrf=ACYBGNTo033wRSzwdf1ejmGe0qNRlNlzaQ:1573050963835&ei=U9rCXYbLMoGQ_QaqqbHoDA&q=is+a+figure+of+speech+a+metaphor&oq=is+a+figure+of+speech+a+metphor&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.33i160.5658.21256..23290...0.2..0.224.1605.9j5j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j35i304i39j0i13j0i7i30j0i67j0j0i30j0i5i30j0i22i30j0i22i10i30j33i22i29i30.S9bJPqNxRBM


    A metaphor is a figure of speech that describes an object or action in a way that isn't literally true, is water baptism literally true? Yes, so it don’t apply- here .

    comparison? Was Noah and his family literally true? Yes. But a A metaphor is a figure of speech that describes an object or action in a way that isn't literally true
    So it don’t apply here either.



    A simile is a figure of speech that makes a comparison, showing similarities between two different things. Unlike a metaphor, a simile draws resemblance with the help of the words “like” or “as.” Therefore, it is a direct comparison. We can find simile examples in our daily speech. this can be found here. https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...1..gws-wiz.......0i71j33i22i29i30.KGfpf4XCz4U

    Bingo, Water Baptism, (action A), is like Noah and his family in the ark (action B).
    But in action A only one soul/person was saved, where in action B 8 souls/persons was saved
    Its a Figure of speech in a simile for comparison, not a figure of speech in a metaphor. and both are literally true. so neithe figure of speech applies here.

    Now a Metaphor and simile. the Sun came up and spat in my eyes and blinded me. is this true? no. the sun came up and it's bright ray blinded me. is this true? yes. but the result in both are similer, because both resulted in blindness.

    the key here is a action or object, "that isn't literally true". so neither of the action ... of a figure of speech apply.
    so Baptism is not a figure of Speech.

    and on a LAST NOTE: being Baptize in the Name of Jesus is in "AUTHORITY" and not in proclaiming a name. supportive scripture, Colossians 3:17 "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." the name JESUS authorize one, or give the right to do the deed of Water Baptism.
    so water Baptism is neither in John's Name nor Jesus name, but a command to do.

    PICJAG.
     
  20. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Things were going along great until your Long & McMurray quotes referring to how the "tragic situation afflicts the Church when there is an inward work of the Holy Spirit but rejection of the outward work", as if the Holy Spirit was a gas additive to increase performance in the church. Which is completely off the mark.

    Too bad, it could be a good study without their input.

    On the contrary, a better understanding of these two aspects of the Holy Spirit, is the before-and-after differences. In very simple terms, before Christ sent the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit "came upon" or "moved"; whereas after Christ sent the Holy Spirit, He "come in unto" or "filled." In other words, prior to Christ sending the Holy Spirit, there was no "Oneness" with God and man since the fall...which afterward is also referred to as the "mystery among the Gentiles."
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
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