The Work of The Holy Spirit

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Hidden In Him

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I have an interesting book which discusses the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. I think it clarifies what can be confusing in scripture. It's called Receiving The Power by Zeb Bradford Long and Douglas McMurray, two Presbyterian Charismatics. It was recommended to me by a Messianic Jew - so very ecumenical.!

1. Their thesis is that there are two distinctive ways in which the Holy Spirit acts and these are often confused, not the least because the same phrases are used in scripture regarding them. These two ways are referred to by Long & McMurray as ‘the Spirit upon’ and ‘the Spirit within’. Thus there is an external and internal work of the Spirit. This is true both for the Old Testament and the New

Correspondingly there are:
2. two ways of receiving the Holy Spirit;
3. two ways of being filled with the Holy Spirit (or full of the Holy Spirit);
4. two 'baptisms'.

That's a lot to discuss. I will start with point 1. above and move on to the others later.

1. The Spirit 'upon' and the Spirit 'within':
.Actual quotations from the book are in blue.

There are two major motifs in scripture…that reflect two different operations of the Holy Spirit. One motif has the Spirit coming “upon” people for power in ministry. A second has the Spirit coming “within” people for salvation and to develop in them skill, wisdom, godly character and maturity in faith and love. Both motifs are equally important and equally biblical.

Thus there is an external and internal work of the Spirit. This is true both for the Old Testament and the New.

The external work corresponds to the charismatic gifts of the Spirit which are given for work of ministry. Examples of the ‘Spirit upon’ from the Old Testament are 2Chr 15:1-2 (for prophecy), 1Sam 19:23-24 (ecstatic praise of God), Ez 1:3-4 (for visions).
Examples from the New Testament are Acts 2:17 (Peter quoting Joel), Acts 10:44-47 (tongues, extolling God), Avts 19:6 (tongues, prophecy)

The internal work corresponds to the sanctifying gifts of the Spirit, as well as practical gifts. Examples from the Old Testament are Gen 41:38-39 (wisdom), Ex 31:1-5 (knowledge and craftsmanship).]
Examples from the New Testament are 1Cor 6:19, 2 Cor 1:22, Eph 4:16.


Long & McMurray use the imagery of a tree where, in the external work, the Spirit gives gifts like those on a Christmas tree, which can be added or removed. They are given for ministry and for the building up of the Church. The internal work is more like the sap permeating the tree giving it life and producing fruit that comes from within. Thus the internal work helps us grow in holiness and spiritual fruitfulness.

It is important that these two workings are kept in balance.
As bitter experience has shown, the “Spirit upon” for gifts and power may occur to great effect, but if there is no parallel growth in the inward work of the Spirit, there can follow a loss of power leading to disaster…. Many a large church or impressive evangelistic ministry has been swept away because the preacher or evangelist neglected the inward work of the Holy Spirit becoming proud and unaccountable…

An opposite but equally tragic situation afflicts the Church when there is an inward work of the Holy Spirit but rejection of the outward work. In this case a believer may pursue moral living, altruistic works, concise exposition of the Word and genuine Christian fellowship but demonstrate no spiritual power to set people free from bondage or fulfil the task of evangelism and making disciples…..

This half-full Christianity is as scandalous as the other. The world scorns a powerless church as much as it scorns an immoral one…… Surely the answer to both dilemmas is that we open our lives to both kinds of infilling, to the work of “the Spirit upon” and “the Spirit within”.

Blessings to you in Christ Jesus, Mongo. I don't believe we've talked before.

Without any desire to be confrontational here - rather just wanting to discuss this subject in Peace - I personally think their argument is making too much theological differentiation out of the wording. Take the analogy of a bucket. First it rains upon the bucket, and then the bucket receives rain within it, after which it begins to fill with water until full. I think these are all just different phases of the same event taking place, and so too in the Spirit. I think much of their arguments stem largely from assumptions that the Holy Spirit indwells believers permanently, as opposed to outpourings to perform works of power, which do not.
The Spirit UPON us is entering INTO Christ. Just like in the upper room in Acts.
The Spirit within us is only quickened to life when we enter Christ so that we become filled with the Spirit.

In the OT the Spirit would be ON the prophets...but since there was no indwelling Christ...there was nothing to burst forth into. It was just God's power and authority....but without the character of Christ.

So then the NT "being filled with the Spirit" is both being IN Christ (under His power) and having Christ within. When both of these are present we can walk the same way Jesus did....in power and authority but also in the character of Jesus having His eyes to love with.

Episkopos, while you won't see me expressing any animosity over it, I actually agree with @Giuliano on this one. Your translation of Micah 2:11 is excellent, but it doesn't negate the verses he quoted you which demonstrate the Spirit also dwelt within believers during OT times. To me, the primary difference is simply that the outpouring was made possible for Gentile and Jewish believers alike to exist as one spiritual temple together, making the need for a physical temple and its restrictions obsolete. But I'd be glad to discuss it : )
 
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Hidden In Him

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Sorry, but I don't see how that relates to my post about the Holy Spirit being in people in the Old Testament.

Actually, I think Victory was agreeing with you and providing additional scriptures to support your point. But she can be a little tough to understand. I find her hard to follow sometimes myself because she loves discussing the scripture but doesn't always explain herself real clear : )
 

Ezra

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I believe that we have a measure of the Holy Spirit in us, at the time of our salvation. I believe there is a day when we become filled with the Spirit ...usually an awesome experience never forgotten , like the day when we were first saved...never forgotten.

And I believe when in active service on any level the Holy Spirit comes upon....so, the anointing is within and upon...( as the ark of the covenant was covered inside and outside with gold. )

I also believe that as Paul says- " Be being filled with the Spirit".
A continual refresh and infill as we wait upon Him .

.
AMEN %100 CORRECT
 

VictoryinJesus

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Actually, I think Victory was agreeing with you and providing additional scriptures to support your point. But she can be a little tough to understand. I find her hard to follow sometimes myself because she loves discussing the scripture but doesn't always explain herself real clear : )

You are right. I was agreeing with @Giuliano. Yes, I also agree I don’t always explain real clear what I’m attempting to say. :)o_O Sometimes I find out later I should not have said it as I was not clear on it myself. But thank you for helping.
 

Hidden In Him

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You are right. I was agreeing with @Giuliano. Yes, I also agree I don’t always explain real clear what I’m attempting to say. :)o_O Sometimes I find out later I should not have said it as I was not clear on it myself. But thank you for helping.

I'm glad I was right. I'm never 100% sure... unless you tell me I am. :)
 

VictoryinJesus

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None of those quotes say that Jesus is the Spirit of righteousness.

Well surely you agree the Living water is the Living water of the River of Life? Jesus told the Samaritan woman by the well about the Living water He could give unto her and she would never thirst again. Which Living water is Spirit and not h2o since Christ spoke of the water we drink and thirst again ...yet spoke of the Living water which fills a thirst after righteousness. As in: blessed are those who thirst after the Spirit of God and not after the flesh?

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
...who will give? Alpha and Omega. The First and the Last. The beginning and the end.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

It is Life proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. Spirit. John 6:63
[63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jeremiah 2:11-13 Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit. [12] Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the Lord. [13] For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.
—I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
—John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst(after the Spirit of God), let him come unto me, and drink.

The work of the Holy Spirit is Great.
 
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Giuliano

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Revelation and regeneration and the need for such is not condescension. Spiritual things don't make sense in the human mind. One must see the foreshadow as well as the prophetic fulfillment. It is assumed by many that these are straightforward...yet the confusion persists in many.

I'm not trying to take away anything from you. Pride goes before a fall. And pride does not comprehend spiritual things...as it is carnally motivated.
If you are trying to say I am guilty of the sin of spiritual pride, why not just say so? Was it "pride" motivating me when you posted verses showing that the Spirit could be "in" people in the Old Testament era? Or was it "pride" that motivated you when you posted the Spirit only rested on people then and was not in them?

Then when you posted that none was "filled" with the Spirit, what was the motive there? What was my motive for posting (reposting actually since apparently you didn't bother to read it the first time) where someone was said to be "filled"?

Not everyone has received the Spirit.

And Israel and we ourselves cannot circumcise their/our own hearts just like we can't crucify ourselves. They are the works of God. (ALL of Israel was uncircumcised in the heart.)
So people are told to do the impossible?

Was the Law a joke? Did God demand the impossible from Israel in order to condemn them? Were the commandments given to condemn Israel or were they given so they might live if they chose correctly?

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Was that a joke? A demand that they do the impossible?

And you say we cannot crucify ourselves? Perhaps, perhaps not, but we can take up our own crosses.

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
 
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Giuliano

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Actually, I think Victory was agreeing with you and providing additional scriptures to support your point. But she can be a little tough to understand. I find her hard to follow sometimes myself because she loves discussing the scripture but doesn't always explain herself real clear : )
I believe her later posts helped explain things to me some. Thanks.
 

Episkopos

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If you are trying to say I am guilty of the sin of spiritual pride, why not just say so? Was it "pride" motivating me when you posted verses showing that the Spirit could be "in" people in the Old Testament era? Or was it "pride" that motivated you when you posted the Spirit only rested on people then and was not in them?

Then when you posted that none was "filled" with the Spirit, what was the motive there? What was my motive for posting (reposting actually since apparently you didn't bother to read it the first time) where someone was said to be "filled"?

So people are told to do the impossible?

Was the Law a joke? Did God demand the impossible from Israel in order to condemn them? Were the commandments given to condemn Israel or were they given so they might live if they chose correctly?

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Was that a joke? A demand that they do the impossible?

And you say we cannot crucify ourselves? Perhaps, perhaps not, but we can take up our own crosses.

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

There is a big difference between receiving a law one cannot obey and receiving the grace to fulfill it apart from the law. Our job is to put it together. God provides the puzzle pieces and then shows us Christ who is the image of what we are to become. Life trumps law just as love does.
 
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Episkopos

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Episkopos, while you won't see me expressing any animosity over it, I actually agree with @Giuliano on this one. Your translation of Micah 2:11 is excellent, but it doesn't negate the verses he quoted you which demonstrate the Spirit also dwelt within believers during OT times. To me, the primary difference is simply that the outpouring was made possible for Gentile and Jewish believers alike to exist as one spiritual temple together, making the need for a physical temple and its restrictions obsolete. But I'd be glad to discuss it : )

The NT is about the grace required to fulfill the law that was received in the OT. If there had been the sufficiency of the Spirit in the OT, then Jesus would not have had to come personally.

But do we really understand why Jesus came to earth?...I mean apart from a being a better sacrifice for sins?

In the end God doesn't need Jesus to die to be merciful towards us....God is merciful even without sacrifice. One needs to look deeper.


It's about LIFE....something we lack of ourselves.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Was the Law a joke? Did God demand the impossible from Israel in order to condemn them?

I understand what you're asking. I've grappled with it. I always keep coming back to what an apostle (James, I think) said - if you're guilty of breaking one law, you've broke them all. And even inadvertently breaking a law (uzzah and the cart) caused his death.

I have gone over it all in my mind. The only thing that makes it intelligible to me is that holy and righteous are two different things. Uzzah did not (just as it says of Moses) properly handle Gods holiness. Ananias and Saphira messed with Gods holiness.

At the same time, David ate what it was not lawful for him to eat. So then you think, but...why did David get a pass and Moses, Saphira and uzzah did not...??? Does God favor David and just allow him to break the law and kill the others?

There's obviously something more to understand about it.
 

Episkopos

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I understand what you're asking. I've grappled with it. I always keep coming back to what an apostle (James, I think) said - if you're guilty of breaking one law, you've broke them all. And even inadvertently breaking a law (uzzah and the cart) caused his death.

I have gone over it all in my mind. The only thing that makes it intelligible to me is that holy and righteous are two different things. Uzzah did not (just as it says of Moses) properly handle Gods holiness. Ananias and Saphira messed with Gods holiness.

At the same time, David ate what it was not lawful for him to eat. So then you think, but...why did David get a pass and Moses, Saphira and uzzah did not...??? Does God favor David and just allow him to break the law and kill the others?

There's obviously something more to understand about it.


People in the OT sought to obey the righteousness of the law....the outward righteousness of not actually stealing, or killing people..yet inwardly people were still carnal in their thoughts and hearts.

The NT life in Christ not only follows the righteousness of the law...but also the holiness requirement of a life that is beyond sin. The eternal kind of life that Jesus came to bring to they who seek to enter into Him.
 

Giuliano

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There is a big difference between receiving a law one cannot obey and receiving the grace to fulfill it apart from the law. Our job us to put it together. God provides the puzzle pieces and then shows us Christ who is the image of what we are to become. Life trumps law just as love does.
So are you saying God asked Israel to do the impossible? Was not forgiveness also available to them when they erred if they repented?

The True Law is the Eternal Law of Love. It has been so from the very beginning.
 

Hidden In Him

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The NT is about the grace required to fulfill the law that was received in the OT. If there had been the sufficiency of the Spirit in the OT, then Jesus would not have had to come personally.

But I believe your construct assumes that we now have the power to fulfill the law perfectly (as opposed to only partially in the OT), yes?

You hold that we can fulfill the law perfectly? I think that Jesus came to put an end to continual sacrifices for sin, and greater grace has been bestowed to confirm the gospel that He is man's redemption. But to say He died that we might walk in sinless perfection is something I've never been able to get my head around, theologically OR practically, LoL.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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But I believe your construct assumes that we now have the power to fulfill the law perfectly (as opposed to only partially in the OT), yes?

You hold that we can fulfill the law perfectly? I think that Jesus came to put an end to continual sacrifices for sin, and greater grace has been bestowed to confirm the gospel that He is man's redemption. But to say He died that we might walk in sinless perfection is something I've never been able to get my head around, theologically OR practically, LoL.

Its a hard thing to grasp. Agreed. And a lot of what we've come to is wrong conclusions. We've been taught wrong conclusions. Sort of like...oh no, there's no man behind the curtain, don't look there, I am the great and powerful Oz!!!
 
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Giuliano

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I understand what you're asking. I've grappled with it. I always keep coming back to what an apostle (James, I think) said - if you're guilty of breaking one law, you've broke them all. And even inadvertently breaking a law (uzzah and the cart) caused his death.
I read "sin" as James uses it to mean a lack of love for either God or your fellow man -- a violation of the Golden Rule. That by itself would be enough to condemn us to death unless we repent. Uzzah? I don't know about.

I have gone over it all in my mind. The only thing that makes it intelligible to me is that holy and righteous are two different things. Uzzah did not (just as it says of Moses) properly handle Gods holiness. Ananias and Saphira messed with Gods holiness.
They also lied to Peter who was filled the Holy Spirit. I see that as a sin against the Holy Spirit -- just as I see Saul's sin when he lied to Samuel. Note that in both cases, the people who lied knew what they were doing. They were not ignorant sinners. Saul had been blessed and consecrated as God's anointed one; and Anaias and Sapphira had received the Holy Spirit. When someone lies to the Holy Spirit in someone else, I think he's offending the Holy Spirit in himself. Thus I also believe many of the Jewish leaders were guided once by the Holy Spirit; but when Jesus showed up, they refused to acknowledge the Holy Spirit in him -- and doomed themselves.
At the same time, David ate what it was not lawful for him to eat. So then you think, but...why did David get a pass and Moses, Saphira and uzzah did not...??? Does God favor David and just allow him to break the law and kill the others?

There's obviously something more to understand about it.
The correct interpretation of the Law was so that people would live. It was never meant to cause death. Thus it was lawful to "work" on the Sabbath if someone was sick and he needed your help. If David could have found other food, I think it would have been a sin for him to eat the shewbread; but since that was all he could find, it was okay.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Its a hard thing to grasp. Agreed.

There is a prominent member at CF that teaches it consistently, and has for years. Makes me want to believe in it, and certainly the early fathers spoke of the Spirit bringing one to the place of being grieved even to sin in thought. But that is still a different thing from attaining to sinless perfection... I do believe in being in Christ, who is sinless and perfect, but there again, I don't hold that it is experientially feasible or attainable that we can abide in Christ 100% of the time, without fail, for the rest of our earthly lives. Just too high of an expectation for me to put my support behind it.

That said, I do believe we should always strive to abide in Him continually, as He is our hope. But to be able to do so continually without fail might blur the lines between God and His creation, which to me is something I don't think He ever intended to do.
 

Giuliano

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People in the OT sought to obey the righteousness of the law....the outward righteousness of not actually stealing, or killing people..yet inwardly people were still carnal in their thoughts and hearts.

The NT life in Christ not only follows the righteousness of the law...but also the holiness requirement of a life that is beyond sin. The eternal kind of life that Jesus came to bring to they who seek to enter into Him.
I would not say that.

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Psalm 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Psalm 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.