The Wrath of God - How is it love?

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ProDeo

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You may not want to believe that God poured out His wrath on His Son, but that is exactly what happened, because that’s what our sin demanded. Isaiah 53:10 says, “Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him, he hath put him to grief,” and Isaiah 53:6 declares, “The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” This wasn’t just human violence, it was divine judgment. Jesus wasn’t merely a victim of man’s cruelty, He was the sin-bearing substitute under the judgment of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, “He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” Galatians 3:13 says, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us.” Whose curse? God’s. The wrath that we deserved was poured out on Jesus so that we could be forgiven. Romans 3:25 says Jesus was set forth to be “a propitiation through faith in his blood,” which means a wrath-satisfying sacrifice.

The word wrath is not in Romans 3:25

If God did not pour out His righteous anger on sin at the cross, then there is no justice and no Gospel.

Assumption of yours.

Jesus said in John 18:11, “The cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?”

No wrath in John 18:11, once again you adding to Scripture.

Jesus knew what the Father wanted, dying a horrible death on a cross, the cup to drink. Don't add things that aren't there.

That “cup” was the cup of God's wrath (Psalm 75:8, Revelation 14:10).

Both texts have nothing to with the crucifixion.

You can reject that truth if you want, but it’s not faithful to Scripture.

In return I can say, don't add to Scripture, no wrath from God the Father on God the Son in Scripture, Jesus was made sin, bore the sins of the world, past, present, future and because of that He had to die and that was enough for the Father, the blameless Lamb slain and the Father raised Him up, death could not hold Him because Jesus was sinless.

John 1:29 The next day he [John the Baptist] saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

The full story is not just that Jesus bled, it’s that He endured the judgment we deserve, and only by that wrath being satisfied can we be reconciled to God.

And what if you are wrong, it's a serious accusation then.
 
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bdavidc

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The word wrath is not in Romans 3:25



Assumption of yours.



No wrath in John 18:11, once again you adding to Scripture.

Jesus knew what the Father wanted, dying a horrible death on a cross, the cup to drink. Don't add things that aren't there.



Both texts have nothing to with the crucifixion.



In return I can say, don't add to Scripture, no wrath from God the Father on God the Son in Scripture, Jesus was made sin, bore the sins of the world, past, present, future and because of that He had to die and that was enough for the Father, the blameless Lamb slain and the Father raised Him up, death could not hold Him because Jesus was sinless.

John 1:29 The next day he [John the Baptist] saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!



And what if you are wrong, it's a serious accusation then.
You keep repeating the same error, and at this point, you're willfully ignoring what Scripture actually says. I am not wrong, what I’ve told you is straight out of the Bible, not my opinion. The wrath of God is not just a theological idea, it's a repeated biblical truth, and denying it is denying God’s own words. Romans 3:25 says God set forth Jesus “to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,” the Greek word for propitiation is ἱλαστήριον (hilastērion), which literally means an appeasement or satisfaction of wrath. That alone demolishes your claim. God’s wrath was poured out on sin, and Jesus bore that in our place. Isaiah 53:10 says, “Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him, he hath put him to grief.” That is not metaphor, that is God the Father crushing His own Son as the substitute for sin.

You say there’s no wrath in John 18:11, but Jesus says, “the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?” The cup in Scripture consistently refers to wrath, read Psalm 75:8, Jeremiah 25:15, Revelation 14:10. Jesus wasn’t fearing crucifixion, He was going to drink the cup of divine judgment for sin. Galatians 3:13 says, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us.” That curse is the outpouring of God’s judgment. Your refusal to accept these plain Scriptures shows that you're not being honest with the text.

Stop accusing others of “adding to Scripture” when the words are right there in front of you. Hebrews 2:17 says Jesus made reconciliation for the sins of the people, the Greek word ἱλάσκεσθαι (hilaskomai) again points to wrath being turned away. God didn’t overlook sin, He judged it fully, on Christ. If you continue rejecting what is plainly written, then you are the one adding your own ideas and removing God's. You're twisting Scripture instead of reading it the way God actually meant it.
 

ProDeo

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You keep repeating the same error, and at this point, you're willfully ignoring what Scripture actually says. I am not wrong, what I’ve told you is straight out of the Bible, not my opinion. The wrath of God is not just a theological idea, it's a repeated biblical truth, and denying it is denying God’s own words. Romans 3:25 says God set forth Jesus “to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,” the Greek word for propitiation is ἱλαστήριον (hilastērion), which literally means an appeasement or satisfaction of wrath.
The word propitiation is used 4 times in the Bible (Romans 3:25; Hebrews 2:17; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10)

Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Hebr 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

1Joh 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Joh 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

In Greek
Code:
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag:
n-2a

Gloss:
atoning sacrifice, the means of forgiveness; traditionally propitiation

Definition:
atoning sacrifice, sin offering, propitiation, expiation; one who makes propitiation/expiation, 1 Jn. 2:2; 4:10*

Where is the wrath ?

To be continued.
 
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ProDeo

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You say there’s no wrath in John 18:11, but Jesus says, “the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?” The cup in Scripture consistently refers to wrath, read Psalm 75:8, Jeremiah 25:15, Revelation 14:10. Jesus wasn’t fearing crucifixion, He was going to drink the cup of divine judgment for sin. Galatians 3:13 says, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us.” That curse is the outpouring of God’s judgment.

Wrong again.

Matt 20:21 And he said to her, “What do you want?” She said to him, “Say that these two sons of mine are to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.”
Matt 20:22 Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?” They said to him, “We are able.”
Matt 20:23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Was the wrath of God also on the 2 apostles in question?

According to you it must have been.

But....

Jesus to Peter
John 21:18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.”
John 21:19 (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me.”

No wrath in Peter's cup, but glorification.

There was no wrath of God the Father in Jesus cup, there was propitiation, the sacrifice Jesus wanted to make for the Father to die a cruel death, His cup, and you want to make it even harder adding wrath (anger, rage, fury) into the Godhead ???

Your refusal to accept these plain Scriptures shows that you're not being honest with the text.

Please don't do this, it spoils a good discussion.

To be continued.
 
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ProDeo

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Stop accusing others of “adding to Scripture”

Not others, only you.

Here is a good read.

On God’s Wrath​

Misplaced and Misunderstood​

Joshua Issa

Joshua Iss

A lot of songs I sing in church have lines like

Till on that cross as Jesus died, The wrath of God was satisfied; For ev’ry sin on him was laid —Here in the death of Christ I live. – In Christ Alone
Unfortunately lines like this misunderstand the function of God’s wrath in the atonement: God’s divine wrath has not been poured out yet, and it will not be poured out on the Son.

Wait, what?​

Yep, you heard me. It’s just not in Scripture at all. In reality, Scripture only ever talks about the future coming of God’s wrath, which is poured out onto all unrighteousness.

Romans 1.18: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those who by their injustice suppress the truth.
Romans 2.4–5: Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart
you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
Romans 5.8–11:But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us. Much more surely, therefore, since we have now been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life. But more than that, we even boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Colossians 3.5-6: Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these
the wrath of God is coming.
1 Thessalonians 1.9–10: For they report about us what kind of welcome we had among you and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead —
Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
Notice the language of Scripture: it’s always future tense. We will be saved from God’s wrath, not we are or have been saved from it. When the day of judgment comes, and God’s wrath will be revealed, those with faith will be saved from it. But as that day hasn’t happened yet, God’s wrath is yet to come. No connection is made in these texts between the cross of Christ and the experience of God’s wrath.

What about…​

There are several texts that people use to argue that God’s wrath was poured onto the Son on the cross in our place.

Romans 3.21–26: But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed and is attested by the Law and the Prophets, the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; it was to demonstrate at the present time his own righteousness, so that he is righteous and he justifies the one who has the faith of Jesus.
The argument from Romans 3 (and similarly in 1 John 2) is that Christ Jesus is put forth as a propitiation to appease God’s wrath. However, you’ll note here in the NRSV that the word “propitiation” does not show up, and opts to translate this it as “sacrifice of atonement”. Without that key word, it is clear that Christ did not take on the wrath of God on the cross, but served as an atonement for our sins like the sacrificial animals of the Old Testament.

Isaiah 53.4–5, 10: Surely he has borne our infirmities and carried our diseases, yet we accounted him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healedYet it was the will of the Lord to crush him with affliction.When you make his life an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring and shall prolong his days; through him the will of the Lord shall prosper.
The text of Isaiah’s Suffering Servant is a favourite for those who support the idea that God’s wrath was poured out on Christ. You may have even heard v. 10 used as justification for the phrase “it pleased the Father to crush the Son”. This passage, however, does not speak of the wrath of God. For sure Christ bore our sins, and it was the will of the Father that Christ would be an atonement. But note that the nature of this atonement is “an offering for sin”, once again just as the sacrificial animals of the Old Testament did.

At this point, you may be thinking: but weren’t the sacrificial animals taking on God’s wrath anyways? No, the Levitical text never says that’s what they did. Further, Hebrews 9.22 tells us that blood is used as a purification of the unclean, not as a propitiation of divine wrath.

Matthew 26.39: And going a little farther, he threw himself on the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me, yet not what I want but what you want.”
A final argument that can be made is the connection between the cup Christ speaks about in the garden and God’s wrath. Each of the gospels record a saying about this cup, and there are passages that connect it to God’s wrath. However, never does Christ explicitly call it a cup of wrath (unlike Jeremiah 25 and Revelation 14). I would let the texts of Romans and 1 Thessalonians be controlling here and say that God’s wrath is still to come, and that the cup Christ refers to is a cup of suffering. Further, in Mark 10.39 Christ tells James and John they too will drink the same cup that He does. It would make little sense to say that James and John drank cups of God’s wrath, but it would make sense to say they drank cups of affliction and suffering.

Reframing of the Gospel​

If you want to talk of God’s wrath in the gospel, you have to understand it properly. Genuinely no verse in Scripture explicitly says that (a) God’s wrath has been poured out and (b) that it’s been poured out on the Son. When we share the gospel in relation to God’s wrath what we can say is something like this:

God stands against all injustice in the world. Because of this, on the judgement day His wrath will be set against it. All of us participate in this suffering, and so we will be rightly condemned. However, if we have faith in Christ, God will declare us righteous by Jesus’ blood which was made an atonement for our sins.
Note that I’m not denying God’s wrath being on sinners, the reality of sin, Christ bearing our afflictions, nor Christ’s substitutionary atonement. I’m pointing out simply that God’s wrath was not poured out on the Son, nor will it ever be. The reason we will be saved from God’s wrath through the atonement is because we are declared righteous by Christ’s blood, not because Jesus took the brunt of it for us. The wrath of God will one day be laid on all unrighteousness, but those in Christ will be revealed to be hidden with Him. Christ bore our sins and died as an atonement for us, but God’s wrath was not poured out on Him.
 
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quietthinker

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You may not want to believe that God poured out His wrath on His Son, but that is exactly what happened, because that’s what our sin demanded. Isaiah 53:10 says, “Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him, he hath put him to grief,” and Isaiah 53:6 declares, “The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” This wasn’t just human violence, it was divine judgment. Jesus wasn’t merely a victim of man’s cruelty, He was the sin-bearing substitute under the judgment of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, “He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” Galatians 3:13 says, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us.” Whose curse? God’s. The wrath that we deserved was poured out on Jesus so that we could be forgiven. Romans 3:25 says Jesus was set forth to be “a propitiation through faith in his blood,” which means a wrath-satisfying sacrifice. If God did not pour out His righteous anger on sin at the cross, then there is no justice and no Gospel. Jesus said in John 18:11, “The cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?” That “cup” was the cup of God's wrath (Psalm 75:8, Revelation 14:10). You can reject that truth if you want, but it’s not faithful to Scripture. The full story is not just that Jesus bled, it’s that He endured the judgment we deserve, and only by that wrath being satisfied can we be reconciled to God.
Does sin makes demands that God needs to capitulate to? Does sin have more authority than God? ....and who said God was angry at people?....and why conflate justice with punishment?
 
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Taken

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The Wrath of God - How is it love?​

Who, what, when, why, where…are Always A good starting point of context, to establish in context what words mean.

God…Who
God IS Love-
Love…( a sappy emotion ?)
In context…No.
Love…Just? Yes
Just? Always a Righteous Consequence ? Yes

Righteousness…Good, Acceptable, Behavior, Act? Yes
Consequence Favorable ? Yes
Unrighteousness…Poor, unacceptable, behavior, act? Yes
Consequence Unfavorable ? Yes

God…Judge? Yes
Created manKind …(Who)…subject to the Judge? Yes.

Righteous / Unrighteous a Secret? No
“WHO” creator, created, judge, subject, Consequences…a Secret? No.

Forgiveness…Available from Judge to Subject? Yes
With “Caveat”? Yes
Caveat? “WHEN”?
* “When” the subjects (mankind’s BODY’S) Life IS Naturally Alive.
* “What” IS a mans Natural Body’s Life?
Blood.
* ManKinds Option, (through Gods Offering)…caveat…
* “When”…the man’s body’s Life (Blood) IS naturally ALIVE…that man CAN ASK AND BE Forgiven …his Unrighteousness…OF UnBelief.

“When” (caveat)…would such a man…RECEIVE… Gods Offering of Forgiveness (for Unbelief)?
AFTER his natural Body IS accounted, recorded, DEAD, IN the Judges Book of Evidence.

“What” accounts A mans Natural Body …
“IS”…OR…”AS” Dead, that which such man…NOT “OR” CEASE being subject TO a “Negative” Consequence ( the Judges Wrath)?

“IS” Bodily Dead? Blood no longer functions, flowing, beating Heart.

“AS” Bodily Dead? Crucified “with” Jesus.
Physical Blood continues…
Mans Body recorded “AS” Dead.
IS Man Recorded “AS” Living Alive “IN” Jesus’ Risen Body. Yes.

Such man “CALLED”…. Or calls himself…
Believer? Maybe…but singularly irrelevant.
Christian? Maybe…but singularly irrelevant.
Saved? Maybe…but singularly Irrelevant.
Quickened? Maybe …but singularly irrelevant.
Born Again? Maybe…but singularly irrelevant.
The Church? Maybe…but singularly irrelevant.

Called…Converted ”IN” Christ ? Yes
“Expressly” Reveals;
The mans Body is accounted Dead.
The man IS Forgiven.
The mans soul IS Saved.
The mans spirit IS Quickened (born again).
The man occupies Jesus’ risen body.
The man IS Spiritually “accounted”;
Perfected
Holy
Righteous
Sealed
Redeemed
Delivered
Escaped “negative” consequences of Anger, Jealously, Disappointment, Wrath of Justice…OF The Spirit …God / Judge.

Such a man…( nor other Men) can PHYSICALLY, Naturally…SEE with Human Eyes…Gods Spiritual Works accomplished in such a man… YET, not visible to men.

It “IS” the “Justice” result that stems From Gods Love.

Just / Love, hand in hand, meaning, Always Doing what IS Righteous, regardless of the Consequence.

The “waiting”…man experiences.
To SEE … with literal Spiritual Eyes…
God Himself…and their OWN self.

1 John 3:
[2] Beloved, (converted) now are we (converted) the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we (converted) shall be: but we (converted) know that, when he shall appear, we (Converted) shall be like him; for we (Converted) shall see him as he is.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

bdavidc

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The word propitiation is used 4 times in the Bible (Romans 3:25; Hebrews 2:17; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10)

Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Hebr 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

1Joh 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Joh 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

In Greek
Code:
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag:
n-2a

Gloss:
atoning sacrifice, the means of forgiveness; traditionally propitiation

Definition:
atoning sacrifice, sin offering, propitiation, expiation; one who makes propitiation/expiation, 1 Jn. 2:2; 4:10*

Where is the wrath ?

To be continued.
According to Scripture, the concept of propitiation absolutely includes the wrath of God, because propitiation is not just about covering sin, it’s about satisfying divine justice. The Greek word used in Romans 3:25 and 1 John 2:2 is ἱλαστήριον (hilastērion) and ἱλασμός (hilasmos) in 1 John 4:10. These words carry the meaning of an atoning sacrifice that turns away wrath. This isn’t speculation, that’s exactly what the word means in biblical context.

In Romans 3:25, Paul says God set forth Christ “as a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare His righteousness.” Why? Because God had passed over sins in His forbearance. That means there was a righteous demand for judgment, and Jesus satisfied that demand. The very existence of propitiation assumes something had to be appeased, and that something is God’s holy wrath against sin. You cannot have propitiation without wrath, otherwise the entire sacrifice becomes meaningless.

Hebrews 2:17 says Jesus made propitiation “for the sins of the people.” The high priest in the Old Testament didn’t just offer sacrifices for symbolic purposes, he did so to satisfy God's holiness, which demands punishment for sin (see Leviticus 16). Jesus, our perfect High Priest, fulfilled that system by fully bearing the penalty in our place.

1 John 4:10 defines God’s love precisely in this, that “He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” Love does not remove wrath, it provides the solution to escape it. The reason this is love is because without Christ taking the wrath we deserved (Isaiah 53:5–6), we would remain under it. John 3:36 confirms this, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life, and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

So where is the wrath? It’s right there, on Christ. Isaiah 53:10 says, “It pleased the LORD to bruise him,” not because God delights in suffering, but because justice had to be served. The love of God sent Christ to endure the wrath of God, so that we could receive the mercy of God.

Propitiation without wrath is a contradiction. Scripture teaches that Jesus bore God’s wrath so that we wouldn’t have to, and that is the very definition of love.
 

bdavidc

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Wrong again.

Matt 20:21 And he said to her, “What do you want?” She said to him, “Say that these two sons of mine are to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.”
Matt 20:22 Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?” They said to him, “We are able.”
Matt 20:23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Was the wrath of God also on the 2 apostles in question?

According to you it must have been.

But....

Jesus to Peter
John 21:18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.”
John 21:19 (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me.”

No wrath in Peter's cup, but glorification.

There was no wrath of God the Father in Jesus cup, there was propitiation, the sacrifice Jesus wanted to make for the Father to die a cruel death, His cup, and you want to make it even harder adding wrath (anger, rage, fury) into the Godhead ???



Please don't do this, it spoils a good discussion.

To be continued.
Your response is not only confused, it directly contradicts the Word of God. You’re twisting Scripture to avoid the truth that God’s wrath is real, it was poured out on Jesus, and that is the very definition of propitiation. Let's deal with this directly, using only Scripture.

You quoted Matthew 20:22–23 and tried to argue that because James and John would “drink the cup,” and because Peter’s death glorified God, then there was no wrath in Christ’s cup. That’s false. The “cup” in Scripture is often a direct symbol of God’s wrath. Look at Psalm 75:8, “For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup, and the wine is red, it is full of mixture, and he poureth out of the same, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them.” The cup is judgment. It’s the same in Isaiah 51:17, “Thou hast drunk at the hand of the Lord the cup of his fury.” So when Jesus speaks of “drinking the cup,” He’s pointing to judgment, and in His case, it was bearing the full wrath of God for the sins of the world.

When Jesus was in Gethsemane, He prayed, “Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me” (Luke 22:42). What was that cup? Not mere death, thousands of martyrs have died without trembling. It was the wrath of God, the full justice of divine anger for sin that was about to fall on Him. That’s why He sweat great drops of blood (Luke 22:44). Your statement that there was “no wrath in Jesus’ cup” is completely unbiblical.

The word propitiation in 1 John 2:2 and 4:10 is ἱλασμός (hilasmos), which means an atoning sacrifice that turns away wrath. That’s not my interpretation, it’s what the word actually means. Romans 3:25 calls Christ the ἱλαστήριον (hilastērion), the mercy seat, the place where blood was sprinkled to satisfy God’s justice. And Hebrews 2:17 says Christ made “propitiation for the sins of the people.” You can’t erase wrath from this. It’s embedded in the very definition of what Christ accomplished.

Finally, John 3:36 destroys your argument, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life, and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.” God’s wrath is real. Jesus bore it in full for His people. That is what makes the Gospel good news. To strip wrath from the atonement is to gut the cross of its meaning.

You’re not defending the love of God, you’re softening His holiness and denying what the Bible clearly teaches. If you want a real discussion, stop rewriting Scripture to fit your preferences. Read it, believe it, and let it speak.
 

bdavidc

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Not others, only you.

Here is a good read.

On God’s Wrath​

Misplaced and Misunderstood​

Joshua Issa
Joshua Iss

A lot of songs I sing in church have lines like


Unfortunately lines like this misunderstand the function of God’s wrath in the atonement: God’s divine wrath has not been poured out yet, and it will not be poured out on the Son.

Wait, what?​

Yep, you heard me. It’s just not in Scripture at all. In reality, Scripture only ever talks about the future coming of God’s wrath, which is poured out onto all unrighteousness.


Notice the language of Scripture: it’s always future tense. We will be saved from God’s wrath, not we are or have been saved from it. When the day of judgment comes, and God’s wrath will be revealed, those with faith will be saved from it. But as that day hasn’t happened yet, God’s wrath is yet to come. No connection is made in these texts between the cross of Christ and the experience of God’s wrath.

What about…​

There are several texts that people use to argue that God’s wrath was poured onto the Son on the cross in our place.


The argument from Romans 3 (and similarly in 1 John 2) is that Christ Jesus is put forth as a propitiation to appease God’s wrath. However, you’ll note here in the NRSV that the word “propitiation” does not show up, and opts to translate this it as “sacrifice of atonement”. Without that key word, it is clear that Christ did not take on the wrath of God on the cross, but served as an atonement for our sins like the sacrificial animals of the Old Testament.


The text of Isaiah’s Suffering Servant is a favourite for those who support the idea that God’s wrath was poured out on Christ. You may have even heard v. 10 used as justification for the phrase “it pleased the Father to crush the Son”. This passage, however, does not speak of the wrath of God. For sure Christ bore our sins, and it was the will of the Father that Christ would be an atonement. But note that the nature of this atonement is “an offering for sin”, once again just as the sacrificial animals of the Old Testament did.

At this point, you may be thinking: but weren’t the sacrificial animals taking on God’s wrath anyways? No, the Levitical text never says that’s what they did. Further, Hebrews 9.22 tells us that blood is used as a purification of the unclean, not as a propitiation of divine wrath.


A final argument that can be made is the connection between the cup Christ speaks about in the garden and God’s wrath. Each of the gospels record a saying about this cup, and there are passages that connect it to God’s wrath. However, never does Christ explicitly call it a cup of wrath (unlike Jeremiah 25 and Revelation 14). I would let the texts of Romans and 1 Thessalonians be controlling here and say that God’s wrath is still to come, and that the cup Christ refers to is a cup of suffering. Further, in Mark 10.39 Christ tells James and John they too will drink the same cup that He does. It would make little sense to say that James and John drank cups of God’s wrath, but it would make sense to say they drank cups of affliction and suffering.

Reframing of the Gospel​

If you want to talk of God’s wrath in the gospel, you have to understand it properly. Genuinely no verse in Scripture explicitly says that (a) God’s wrath has been poured out and (b) that it’s been poured out on the Son. When we share the gospel in relation to God’s wrath what we can say is something like this:


Note that I’m not denying God’s wrath being on sinners, the reality of sin, Christ bearing our afflictions, nor Christ’s substitutionary atonement. I’m pointing out simply that God’s wrath was not poured out on the Son, nor will it ever be. The reason we will be saved from God’s wrath through the atonement is because we are declared righteous by Christ’s blood, not because Jesus took the brunt of it for us. The wrath of God will one day be laid on all unrighteousness, but those in Christ will be revealed to be hidden with Him. Christ bore our sins and died as an atonement for us, but God’s wrath was not poured out on Him.
What you’re doing is not biblical interpretation, it’s Scripture denial. You’re twisting the text, redefining plain words, and undermining the very core of the Gospel. Let’s walk through it bluntly with the Word of God in hand, because this kind of error needs strong reproof.

You say “God’s wrath was not poured out on the Son” and claim “there’s no verse that says it.” That is false. Start with Isaiah 53:10, “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him, he hath put him to grief... Thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin.” The Hebrew word for “pleased” (ḥāpēṣ) means purposed or willed. This was not general suffering, it was God’s deliberate act. Then in verse 5, “He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him.” That’s not just substitution, it’s penal substitution. God’s righteous judgment for sin was put on Him.

You misuse Romans 3:25 because you’re relying on a watered-down translation that avoids the original word. The Greek is ἱλαστήριον (hilastērion), which means propitiation—not “atoning sacrifice” in a vague sense, but the satisfaction of God’s wrath. That’s exactly how it’s used in the Septuagint to describe the mercy seat in Leviticus 16, where blood was applied to turn away God’s wrath. And in 1 John 2:2 and 4:10, the word ἱλασμός (hilasmos) is again used, meaning a wrath-bearing substitute. This is not debated Greek, it’s the word the Holy Spirit used.

You ignore Galatians 3:13, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us.” What is that curse? Deuteronomy 27:26—it is divine judgment for disobedience to God’s law. Jesus took it in our place. That’s wrath.

You sidestep 2 Corinthians 5:21, “He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin.” Not symbolic sin, not just affliction. He became the object of God’s judgment in our place. The full penalty of sin was laid on Him. That includes wrath, because Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death, and not just physical death, but spiritual judgment (Hebrews 10:27).

You say wrath is only future. Wrong again. John 3:36 says, “He that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.” Present tense. Wrath is already in effect, and the only reason anyone is spared is because Jesus bore it on the cross (Romans 5:9).

As for the cup in Matthew 26:39, your argument is absurd. Jesus wasn’t praying to avoid Roman execution. Martyrs face death boldly. Jesus sweat blood because He was about to endure the cup of God's fury, just like Psalm 75:8, Isaiah 51:17, and Jeremiah 25:15 describe it, the cup of God’s wrath. To say otherwise is to rip the cross out of the Gospel and replace it with a powerless symbol.

You’re reframing the Gospel into something God never said. You deny that Jesus bore God's wrath, yet still want to call it atonement. That’s not the Gospel, that’s deception. If God’s wrath wasn’t poured out on Christ, then it still remains on the sinner, and no one is saved. That’s why Romans 5:9 says, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”

You’re not correcting a misunderstanding, you’re preaching another gospel (Galatians 1:6–9). You claim to believe in substitution but remove the very judgment that makes it meaningful. You twist words like “atonement” to remove their weight, and then accuse others of error for simply repeating what Scripture says. Your argument is built on human logic, not divine revelation.

You don’t want the truth, the Bible teaches it plainly. I’ve given you Scripture, not speculation. Since you continue to reject it, I’m putting you on ignore. I will not cast pearls before swine (Matthew 7:6).
 

bdavidc

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Does sin makes demands that God needs to capitulate to? Does sin have more authority than God? ....and who said God was angry at people?....and why conflate justice with punishment?
Sin does not make demands of God, but God, in His holiness, demands justice for sin. The Bible is clear, “The wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23), not because sin holds power over God, but because God Himself has declared the consequence of sin. Sin doesn’t rule, God does, and He has set the standard that transgression must be judged. God is not obligated to sin, He is consistent with His own character. Habakkuk 1:13 says, “Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity.” His justice is not external to Him, it is part of who He is.

As for anger, Scripture repeatedly affirms that God is angry with the wicked. Psalm 7:11 says, “God is angry with the wicked every day.” John 3:36 warns, “He that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.” This is not speculation, it’s divine revelation. The Bible does not hide the fact that God’s wrath is real and directed at unrepentant sinners.

You also ask why justice is conflated with punishment. According to Scripture, justice and punishment are inseparable when sin is involved. Romans 2:5–6 says that God “will render to every man according to his deeds.” That is justice. And it includes punishment, “Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil” (Romans 2:9). God is not unjust to punish, He is just because He punishes. Without judgment, there is no justice. That’s why Romans 3:25–26 says God sent Christ to be a propitiation, to declare His righteousness, so “that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.”

So no, sin does not demand anything, God demands righteousness, and when it is violated, He acts in holy justice, including righteous wrath, because He is both merciful and just.
 

Jericho

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We have often heard about these two aspects of God's character, His love and His wrath.

The concept is acceptable to many, citing biblical sources to confirm.
But to others it is troubling, noting that the character of God does not allow for such a contradiction.

Since God is love, His wrath also needs to be a manifestation of love.
But that's not the description given by many. They describe an anger driven rage, which is obviously not love.

How do we resolve this contradiction?

The Wrath of God - How is it love?

[

I don't think it's a contradiction for God to show different aspects of His character. When parents disciplines their children, do they not still love them? In fact, one could say that parents discipline their children because they love them. If they didn't love them at all, they wouldn't pay them any attention. Revelation 3:19 says as much: "Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent."

I've said before that God is a God of love, but He's also a judge. If we use an earthy judge as an example, when they judge, they don't judge with their feelings. They judge based upon the other person's actions. I think it's the same way with God. I don't think God necessarily wants to show his wrath as He affords everyone a grace period to repent. Wrath is really the last resort.
 

St. SteVen

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I don't think it's a contradiction for God to show different aspects of His character. When parents disciplines their children, do they not still love them? In fact, one could say that parents discipline their children because they love them. If they didn't love them at all, they wouldn't pay them any attention. Revelation 3:19 says as much: "Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent."

I've said before that God is a God of love, but He's also a judge. If we use an earthy judge as an example, when they judge, they don't judge with their feelings. They judge based upon the other person's actions. I think it's the same way with God. I don't think God necessarily wants to show his wrath as He affords everyone a grace period to repent. Wrath is really the last resort.
Good post, thanks.
A couple of things to consider.

If a parent disciples with wrath, they risk having their children removed from the home by child protection.
A judge who rules with wrath is demonstrating unbridled anger. I don't want God to be framed this way.
Neither parents, a judge, nor God needs to disciple with wrath. (unbridled anger = fury)

[
 

Hey You!

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We have often heard about these two aspects of God's character, His love and His wrath.

The concept is acceptable to many, citing biblical sources to confirm.
But to others it is troubling, noting that the character of God does not allow for such a contradiction.

Since God is love, His wrath also needs to be a manifestation of love.
But that's not the description given by many. They describe an anger driven rage, which is obviously not love.

How do we resolve this contradiction?

The Wrath of God - How is it love?

[
God’s Love is seen in his Wrath, by protecting his Community. Hellions are Eternal; God keeps them locked away for our sake. Remember what happens at Worlds End, when the devil gets loose? They would tear us apart...

Feral ~ by ReverendRV * April 1

Ephesians 1:5; KJV
; Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

I am reminded of a time while I was working for Animal Control. I trapped a feral Cat and returned to the Shelter with it. We use Trustees from the Jail at the Kennel and one of them liked the Cat. He asked what we were going to do with it; I said we would Euthanize it. He wondered why we couldn’t Adopt it out, and I said that we can’t adopt it out because it’s wild, no one wants to adopt a wild animal. He immediately understood and it made sense to him. ~ There’s Wildness which comes with this world; even among Humanity. The Bible tells us what happened to the Babylonian, King Nebuchadnezzer. Because of the King’s Vain glory, God made him like a beast of the fields for a period of time. Though the King was guilty of many Sins, all it took was one Sin for God to punish him. Nebuchadnezzer made himself out to be God, by giving himself credit for creating one of the Seven Wonders of the World; the Hanging Gardens of Babylon. Without God, we can do nothing…

God made the King become like a Wolf Man; Feral above all we could imagine. There’s a way we can tell how Wild we are, would you like to know? Here goes. ~ Have you ever committed Adultery? Jesus said if you’ve Lusted after someone, then you’ve committed Adultery in your Heart. The Heart is deceitful above ALL things and desperately Wicked; you have pounced on the visage of the one you Lusted after and had your way with them. Have you ever Murdered anyone? Jesus said that if you have Hated anyone you’ve committed Murder in your Heart. I remember an Animal Control call where a Pit Bull had torn little ‘Fluffy’ into three pieces and carried those pieces off before I got to the scene. ~ These are only two of the Ten Commandments; Do we need more? If God Judged you for this right now, would you be more Feral than King Nebuchadnezzer was?? ~ We see that even humanity is not fit for Adoption, and God would be within his Rights to Euthanize us to protect his Community. Sinners will go to Hell for all Eternity. ~ Oh, how we need for someone to Rescue us!

Nebuchadnezzer eventually came to his senses and realized that there is a God who Saves. Just as the Animal Shelter allows Licensed Rescue groups to enter and save some animals, God has someone who will Rescue us. Jesus Christ is the only person who is Licensed as a Savior; let me explain. ~ The Son of God condescended to become a Man to live under the God’s Law; the Ten Commandments. He’s the only person who ever pleased God by doing this, so he is an expert in his field. Sin requires a blood Sacrifice to wash it away, and to make us harmless as doves. Jesus died on the Cross and was Punished for our Iniquities; and was buried, but rose from the dead in three days. When we make his Soul an Offering for our Sin, God will see his Good Works and be Satisfied. We are Saved by God’s Grace through Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, apart from any Labors we can perform. ~ We’re not like a wild cat which is rescued for the purpose of serving as a barn cat. Our Rescuer reforms us and does Adopt us into his Family as his dear children. Desire to be both Rescued and Adopted…

Isaiah 11:6 NIV; The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.
 
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Dash RipRock

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Ah, yes. “I was really p!$$ed off at those humans, so I killed my kid, and now I feel a lot calmer and can forgive those humans.”

Too bad you and your foul mouth don't know what God says about this:

Isaiah 53:4-6 - Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:10 - Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

2 Corinthians 5:21 - For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

Matthew 27:46 - And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Maybe you’re into a justice system where the innocent have to pay for the crimes of the guilty?
People are not saved if you don't believe Jesus being innocent paid for the sins of man.
 

quietthinker

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Too bad you and your foul mouth don't know what God says about this:

Isaiah 53:4-6 - Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:10 - Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

2 Corinthians 5:21 - For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

Matthew 27:46 - And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”


People are not saved if you don't believe Jesus being innocent paid for the sins of man.
You have not yet understood the kindness of God DRR. God forgives before the Creation of the World. It is this fact delivered in the incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus which is the drawing power that draws all men to himself.

It is true, not all who are drawn care to have him as their friend and it is also true that many who are drawn turn him into a religious icon, inventing all manner of mumbo jumbo which they hang on him.
 
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Aunty Jane

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I don't think it's a contradiction for God to show different aspects of His character. When parents disciplines their children, do they not still love them? In fact, one could say that parents discipline their children because they love them. If they didn't love them at all, they wouldn't pay them any attention. Revelation 3:19 says as much: "Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent."
Yes, God disciplines those he loves…why?…. so that they won’t get the idea that living according to their own rules is acceptable. We are to do things God’s way, and failing to do that is what got us into this mess in Eden.

Did Jesus get angry and demonstrate his anger in a rather violent way to show how disgusted he was that the merchants were turning the House of God into “a den of thieves”. It was out of character, but he showed us that at times such anger is justified. He was expressing his Father’s anger as a well as his own.

In the wilderness also, God demonstrated his anger on the complaining Jews who were never satisfied with the provisions God gave them that sustained them for 40 years in that desolate place. Rather than appreciate those life-giving provisions, they failed to acknowledge why they were even there. Disobedience will always merit God’s displeasure.…but despite the anger he felt towards his disobedient people at times, he kept them in existence until his purpose was completed, and they had produced their Messiah.
They then got first option to become his disciples.…but as prophesied, only a “remnant” of the nation chose to do so.
I've said before that God is a God of love, but He's also a judge. If we use an earthy judge as an example, when they judge, they don't judge with their feelings. They judge based upon the other person's actions. I think it's the same way with God. I don't think God necessarily wants to show his wrath as He affords everyone a grace period to repent. Wrath is really the last resort.
God’s justice is not watered down by his love…but rather, it is an evidence of his love. In order to protect the faithful, he must remove the ones who by their own choices are not one bit interested in living life the way God intended us to. The success or failure of man’s place here on planet earth depended on his ability to be able to follow orders…..not harsh demands, but reasonable requests…..and isn’t that what any successful human endeavor requires? If all would just do as they are told, rather than please themselves….all of our issues would disappear.

Just in the application of one Bible principle alone..…”do to others what you would have them to do you”…imagine if we all operated that way!? What a different world we would be living in.

Discipline has a purpose…..
“And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?. . . . .For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.“ (Heb 12:5-7, 11 ESV)

Accepting God’s discipline is ‘training’ for the new world to come, because only those who have proven that they can ‘meekly’ do as they are told, will “inherit the earth” as Jesus promised, (Matt 5:5, 9) and Christ’s disciples must be “peacemakers” as the peace disrupters will be removed…..the Kingdom will “come” to establish God’s will “on earth as it is in heaven”. It’s what we have been praying for all along.
 
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ProDeo

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Isaiah 53 and the different translations.

I compiled a text file with 3 translations of Isaiah 53 for easy verse by verse comparison.

1. ESV 2011 - modern translation.
2. Septuagint or LXX, 285–247 BC the version used by the early church.
3. Hebrew Bible, 8th/7th centuries BCE – 2nd/1st centuries BCE.

Unfortunately the forum can't handle a proper display of the text file and so I put it on my website.

As you can see there are major differences between the ESV and the Septuagint, the version used by the early church fathers. While on the other hand the Hebrew Bible is more in sync with the ESV. I still have to check if the translation from Hebrew to English is correct with an old Jewish Orthodox friend, but for the moment this will do.

For now just notice the major difference in translation of verse 10.

Code:
               ESV                                           SEPTUAGINT or LXX

Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush      | 10 The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his   |
him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an    | stroke. If ye can give an offering for sin, your    |
offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he      | soul shall see a long-lived seed:                   |
shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall      |                                                     |
prosper in his hand.                                    |                                                     |
 
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