The Wrath of the Lord

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I believe mjr is one of the saints. Take it easy Marcus and give yourself a rest.

Well, we're all "saints" because of Jesus, but I seriously don't see what this guy's problem is so that he has to split hairs. I use "God's Word" as synonymous for Scripture or the Bible. John said the Word was God. Should mjr correct him too?

 

[mjrhealth]

John said the Word was God.

And He was right, Jesus Christ teh Word of God come in the flesh, He who was there in the beggining and who has no ending, teh word of God spoken to Mary who believed and so by faith conceived and His word produced life, as he says, The words that I speak they are Spirit and they are Life.

John wasnt lying. and we are all saints every one who comes to Christ and are sanctifed by the washing of His blood.

Jesus, who is the Word of God, said it: there is but one way to the Father, thought him, Jesus - and the Bible is all about Him.

Amen and yet you like so may ignore this bit,

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

As you rightfully Said, jesus is the word of God, teh bible is not.

In all His Love

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

You want to judge me and pick at words?

As Scripture speaks of Jesus, and He is the Word, and Scripture is made up of words, it's God's Word.

I do not equate the Bible with God, but by showing the possessive, I acknowledge that Scripture comes from God.

All Scripture is God-breathed. It's His.

Go away.

 

[ATP]

Well, we're all "saints" because of Jesus

John 3:3.

 

[keras]

[SIZE=medium]Back to the OP and more details about the forthcoming wrath of the Lord:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Amos 4:1-11[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] Listen to this Word from the Lord, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]you sleek and satisfied people[/SIZE][SIZE=medium],[/SIZE][SIZE=small] 1[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] you who oppress the downtrodden, as you revel in your modern lifestyle. The Lord God had sworn by His holiness, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]that your time is coming and disaster will fall upon you.[/SIZE][SIZE=small] 5[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]In times past, I brought famine to the Land, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]yet you did not come back to Me.[/SIZE][SIZE=small] 2[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I withheld the rain, yet you did not come back to Me[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I struck your crops with the black and red blight, yet you did not come back to Me. Locusts devoured your fig and olive trees, yet you did not come back to Me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I sent the plagues of Egypt among you, yet you did not come back to Me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]With the sword, I slew your young men, yet you did not come back to Me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I brought destruction like that of Sodom and to some of you, it was as you were a brand [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]snatched from the fire[/SIZE][SIZE=medium],[/SIZE][SIZE=small] 6[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] yet you did not come back to Me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Amos 5:12-13[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] Seek good, not evil, that you may live and the Lord God may be with you, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]as you claim He is.[/SIZE][SIZE=small] 3[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] Establish justice and practice righteousness and it may be that the Lord will [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]show favour to the survivors of His people. [/SIZE][SIZE=small]4[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Amos 5:16-20 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]The Lord says: In the cities and in the country there will be mourning, for I will pass through your midst on the [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]great and terrible Day of the Lord[/SIZE][SIZE=medium].[/SIZE][SIZE=small] 5[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] It will be a Day of darkness and terror, with no escape for anyone[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Amos 4:12-13 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Therefore, Israel, this is what I will do to you: [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Israel: Prepare to meet your God,[/SIZE][SIZE=small] 4[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]the Creator of all things. It is He who will darken the dawn with thick clouds and He will trample the nations with His rod of iron. The Lord, His Name is Y’hovah, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]makes known His plans to those who seek the truth in faith and sincerity.[/SIZE][SIZE=small] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Ref: REB. Some verses abridged and paraphrased.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]1/ Our modern society, mostly without a thought for their Creator. 2 Timothy 4:3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]2/ Ancient Israel ignored their warnings, they were sent into exile. Hosea 5:4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]3/ Now; the Lord’s people, the descendants of Jacob and those grafted in, claim that God is with them, but they do not wholeheartedly obey His commandments. Isaiah 58:1-8[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]4/ Ezekiel 20:30-36, describes how the Lord will ‘[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]state His case’[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] against His people. They will ‘[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]meet their God’[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], in the wilderness, then enter the Land.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]5/ The Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times in the Bible as a sudden and shocking judgement by fire, coronal mass ejection that will be the ‘[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]disaster that will fall upon them’[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], and upon the whole world. Isaiah 30:26-28[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]6/ The Lord’s righteous people are warned to take cover and will be protected on that Day, like ‘[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]brands snatched from the fire’[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Isaiah 26:20-21, Joel 2:32[/SIZE]




​

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

John 3:3.

The theological concept is Justification.

We who first believe, are not made innocent, but are only 'not guilty' by the blood of Jesus.

The idea then is that when viewed by the Father, it is Christ Jesus' Righteousness that stands before us, and His Holiness becomes the view through which the Father sees us.

Explanation and Scriptural Basis
Just what is justification? We may define it as follows: Justification is an instantaneous legal act of God in which he (1) thinks of our sins as forgiven and Christ's righteousness as belonging to us, and (2) declares us to be righteous in his sight.
(from Systematic Theology, Copyright © 1994 by Wayne Grudem. All rights reserved.)

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

[SIZE=medium] The Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times in the Bible as a sudden and shocking judgement by fire, coronal mass ejection that will be the ‘[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]disaster that will fall upon them’[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], and upon the whole world. Isaiah 30:26-28[/SIZE]

That's not true.

Isaiah 30:26 does not describe a coronal mass ejection, and Isaiah specifically precludes it from happening on the Day of the Lord by saying the sun shines seven times brighter on the day He heals the (remnant) people of the bruises He has inflicted!

We are not to suffer God's Wrath - 1Th 5:9
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

rabbi keras confuses the time of Jacob's Trouble as being for the Church. The Church, as the faithful Bride of Christ needs no rod of punishment, but the shrewdly defiant Jews who still reject Jesus will be tamed; out of them, a remnant will survive, and they too will come to know Jesus as we do.

 

[ATP]

We who first believe, are not made innocent, but are only 'not guilty' by the blood of Jesus.

But the opposite of being guilty is innocence. Believers are no longer condemned by God..

Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

But the opposite of being guilty is innocence. Believers are no longer condemned by God..

Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV

In a court room, innocence is never declared.

We are not innocent, having been guilty of sin. We are saved because Jesus washes our sin away. There is a difference and it's not as easy as guilt or innocence; a third way is Grace and Mercy - to be let off the hook, so to speak and proclaimed 'not guilty' because Jesus stood in our stead and paid the price for us.

Mk 16:16 - He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved... Salvation is not based upon innocence, but belief.
John 3:18 - ...but that the world might be saved through Him. Salvation is not earned by the individual but given through Jesus.
John 8:11 - she is not proclaimed innocent, just not condemned, and told to sin no more.
John 16:11 - the ruler of this world will be judged; we escape that judgment through Jesus.
Rom 3;6-8 is said in sarcastic response to v.5 and Paul is arguing for repentance so as to sin no more, and indeed, goes back to the start of that chapter juxtaposing Jewish tradition to Christianity. A better case for what Paul is saying is in the following verses:

Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Rom 5:16 - ...the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 8:1-2 - not innocence, but instead, no condemnation. There is a difference.
Rom 8:34 - the wicked are condemned, but Christ intercedes for those who believe. We do not stand on our own; we are not innocent. Only Jesus was innocent.
Col 2:13-15 - ...having forgiven us all our transgressions - again Grace and Mercy; not innocence.
2Th 2:11 has nothing to do with guilt, innocence and being forgiven through Justification. This concerns those taken in by the anti-Christ. It should never be used, as rabbi keras uses it, against a fellow Christian.
2Pe 2:3 - the wicked are judged. We are not suffer God's Wrath, 1Th 5:9.
1Jo 3:21 does not address the issue of forgiveness in Judgment. If you do right, your heart will not be conflicted.
Jude 1:4-5 - the wicked are condemned - says nothing about innocence or forgiveness.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

A. Justification Includes a Legal Declaration By God

The use of the word justify in the Bible indicates that justification is a legal declaration by God. The verb justify in the New Testament has a range of meanings, but a very common sense is "to declare righteous." For example, we read, "When they heard this all the people and the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John" (Luke 7:29). Of course the people and the tax collectors did not make God to be righteous—that would be impossible for anyone to do. Rather they declared God to be righteous. This is also the sense of the term in passages where the New Testament talks about us being declared righteous by God (Rom 3:20,26,28; 5:1; 8:30; 10:4,10; Gal 2:16; 3:24). This sense is particularly evident, for example, in Rom 4:5: "And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly his faith is reckoned as righteousness." Here Paul cannot mean that God "makes the ungodly to be righteous" (by changing them internally and making them morally perfect), for then they would have merit or works of their own to depend on. Rather, he means that God declares the ungodly to be righteous in his sight, not on the basis of their good works, but in response to their faith.

The idea that justification is a legal declaration is quite evident also when justification is contrasted with condemnation. Paul says, "Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies; who is to condemn?" (Rom 8:33-34). To "condemn" someone is to declare that person guilty. The opposite of condemnation is justification, which, in this context, must mean "to declare someone not guilty." This is also evident from the fact that God's act of justifying is given as Paul's answer to the possibility of someone bringing an accusation or "charge" against God's people: such a declaration of guilt cannot stand in the face of God's declaration of righteousness.

(from Systematic Theology, Copyright © 1994 by Wayne Grudem. All rights reserved.)

 

[StanJ]

StanJ, Hebrews 10:27 is paralleled by 2 Peter 3:7 and all the OT prophesies about the Day of judgement/punishment of the nations by fire.

Saying you are a lifetime student of God's Word means you are wise and learned, right?
Sadly for you and all the Bible scholars esteemed by the world, Paul says: the wise must become as fools and the Lord traps the wise in their own learning. 1 Cor. 3:18-20
Jesus said; Father, You hide these things from the learned and wise, revealing them to the simple. Matthew 11:25

​

and as usual you ignore scripture you are given and deflect to out of context scriptures, just to insult those that don't accept your fallacious POV. Your MO is to obfuscate and deflect.

 

[keras]

That's not true.

Isaiah 30:26 does not describe a coronal mass ejection, and Isaiah specifically precludes it from happening on the Day of the Lord by saying the sun shines seven times brighter on the day He heals the (remnant) people of the bruises He has inflicted!

The usual Marcus opinion, totally unsupported because the whole context of Isaiah 30:25-33 is all about the Lord's Day of wrath. But for His righteous people, that He will heal on that Day, there will be songs of joy, as they march to Zion.... Isaiah 30:26b & 29
Isaiah 30:26a is a clear statement: the sun will shine with seven times its normal brightness, like seven days in one.... A Coronal Mass Ejection is the simple literal explanation for this. The Lord will use it to destroy His enemies as described in Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7 and many other prophesies.

Marcus says: the Church needs no rod of punishment.....
Where are you Marcus? In the space station? Do you not think that Revelation 3:14-22, about the Laodicean church, applies to the church today?
What Paul said in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 is perfectly fulfilled in todays church.
God will judge the world, Luke 21:35 and denial of that truth is stupidity.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The usual Marcus O'Reillius opinion. Oh really? And you're not opinionated.

And you say you're not wrong either. In fact, you say you state the truth.

Well here is God's Word through the prophet Isaiah.
The light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven days, on the day the LORD binds up the fracture of His people and heals the bruise He has inflicted.

This sun does not explode.
It shines bright. LIKE - a simile - not literal.

ON THE DAY THE LORD BINDS AND HEALS
This is not an event which occurs with the Wrath of God on the Day of the Lord.

You have one verse to get right, and you still can't get it.

 

[StanJ]

The usual Marcus opinion, totally unsupported because the whole context of Isaiah 30:25-33 is all about the Lord's Day of wrath. But for His righteous people, that He will heal on that Day, there will be songs of joy, as they march to Zion.... Isaiah 30:26b & 29
Isaiah 30:26a is a clear statement: the sun will shine with seven times its normal brightness, like seven days in one.... A Coronal Mass Ejection is the simple literal explanation for this. The Lord will use it to destroy His enemies as described in Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7 and many other prophesies.

Marcus says: the Church needs no rod of punishment.....
Where are you Marcus? In the space station? Do you not think that Revelation 3:14-22, about the Laodicean church, applies to the church today?
What Paul said in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 is perfectly fulfilled in todays church.
God will judge the world, Luke 21:35 and denial of that truth is stupidity.

Again, you insert/infer something NOT there in scripture keras. Isaiah 30:26 is a metaphorical description of what Jesus revealed to John in Revelation. Isaiah constantly used this kind of augmentation of light to show the Blessings of God as we move on to Eternal Life. You would have to actually KNOW what Jesus was referring to about the Laodicean church in Rev 3, but something that did exist at the time John wrote Revelation, and it wasn't an apostate or middle of the road congregation. Instead of pulling all these verses OUT of context, you should be looking at them within the context of where they were written, and the entirety of scripture. Instead you continue to eisegete to suit your own predetermined POV.

 

[keras]

Calling a prophecy metaphorical or allegorical is fine when it is obvious that a literal fulfilment is impossible. Usually what is meant by that prophecy is explained to us elsewhere in scripture. Dainel has examples of that.
But Isaiah 30:26a is not metaphorical, it is a definitive statement about a known object. And a simple google search informs us that the sun can and does frequently flash brightly, as it explodes out superheated hydrogen plasma. These are indisputable facts, that science has warned about as something that could destroy our modern lifestyle.

With a prophecy such as all of Isaiah 30, it is quite evident that what is prophesied has never been fulfilled. Assyria and Egypt are mentioned, but just as types of nations or people groups we see today. The use of 'Babylon' in Revelation is an example of how the prophets use types, that we can understand as applying to present day peoples exhibiting the characteristic's of those ancient nations. Or even in the case of Assyria, partially in the same location today - Iran.
After all, how else could the prophets describe peoples far into the future?

So thinking that what scripture plainly says, isn't what it means, is a denial of the Word of God.
It's going to be a hard time for all who have failed to understand what God will do in His creation, starting with His Day of fiery wrath, very soon.

 

[StanJ]

Calling a prophecy metaphorical or allegorical is fine when it is obvious that a literal fulfilment is impossible. Usually what is meant by that prophecy is explained to us elsewhere in scripture. Dainel has examples of that.
But Isaiah 30:26a is not metaphorical, it is a definitive statement about a known object. And a simple google search informs us that the sun can and does frequently flash brightly, as it explodes out superheated hydrogen plasma. These are indisputable facts, that science has warned about as something that could destroy our modern lifestyle.

With a prophecy such as all of Isaiah 30, it is quite evident that what is prophesied has never been fulfilled. Assyria and Egypt are mentioned, but just as types of nations or people groups we see today. The use of 'Babylon' in Revelation is an example of how the prophets use types, that we can understand as applying to present day peoples exhibiting the characteristic's of those ancient nations. Or even in the case of Assyria, partially in the same location today - Iran.
After all, how else could the prophets describe peoples far into the future?

So thinking that what scripture plainly says, isn't what it means, is a denial of the Word of God.
It's going to be a hard time for all who have failed to understand what God will do in His creation, starting with His Day of fiery wrath, very soon.

and as this prophecy is fulfilled in Revelation as God living in the new Jerusalem, it is metaphorical, or do you think God cannot show actual events as He so often does in the Bible?

That's right, because it is about what revelations also talks about...the establishment of God living with His people in the New Jerusalem, NOT a super nova or any other such cosmological event.

You infer or assert what It means keras, which is not the same as what it actually conveys in it's own context. You keep trying to make people swallow your false teaching and we keep telling you we're NOT buying it.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

But Isaiah 30:26a is not metaphorical, it is a definitive statement about a known object.
And a simple google search informs us that the sun can and does frequently flash brightly, as it explodes out superheated hydrogen plasma.
These are indisputable facts, that science has warned about as something that could destroy our modern lifestyle.

But these two are not related.
1. Is related to a time of healing.
2. The other does not "burn" the earth.

Secondly, rabbi keras shows a distinct lack of knowledge of the poetic, story-telling aspect of the Hebrew language. Shining like seven times brighter does not mean the sun explodes!

And when it does, it does not "burn" the earth, but sends an electro-magnetic pulse which can wreak havoc with electronics: especially in the fields of communication and navigation.

 

[keras]

I simply read the plain text of the prophesies, it is you people who refuse to see the truth of what we are told.
Marcus continues to display his lack of knowledge about what a big CME would do if it was aimed at the earth. Ezekiel 20:47-48
Poetic language? Was Jesus reciting poetry when He said: I have come to set fire on the earth.... Luke 12:49 and Hebrews 12:29 Our God is a consuming fire.

Yes, I guess you do throw these scriptures into the allegorical bin, you have to in order for your pre-conceived end times notions to fit. But the Day of the Lord's consuming fire will come, as sure as the sunrise; Psalm 50:1-3, Isaiah 13:9-13

 

[StanJ]

I simply read the plain text of the prophesies, it is you people who refuse to see the truth of what we are told.
Marcus continues to display his lack of knowledge about what a big CME would do if it was aimed at the earth. Ezekiel 20:47-48
Poetic language? Was Jesus reciting poetry when He said: I have come to set fire on the earth.... Luke 12:49 and Hebrews 12:29 Our God is a consuming fire.

Yes, I guess you do throw these scriptures into the allegorical bin, you have to in order for your pre-conceived end times notions to fit. But the Day of the Lord's consuming fire will come, as sure as the sunrise; Psalm 50:1-3, Isaiah 13:9-13

That is not factual keras. You infer and read into the text. It's not simple at all what you do and continually stating something that is false just makes you a liar.

 

[keras]

That is not factual keras. You infer and read into the text. It's not simple at all what you do and continually stating something that is false just makes you a liar.

Stan, unless you can prove anything that I have said to be untrue, then you are just making false accusations.
This means something proven wrong, not just because you disagree with what I post. It is people who wish to be raptured, who read into and infer their false beliefs from scriptures.