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The Wrath of the Lord

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by keras, Aug 17, 2015.

  1. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    The dead being raised is the first resurrection. First resurrection precedes rapture keras. So what do you call being caught up in the clouds if not rapture? :rolleyes:

    Matt 24:31 ESV And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    1 Thess 4:17 NIV After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
     
  2. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    As Jesus is on His way down to earth for His Millennium reign, I call the 'harparzo' a meet and greet scenario.

    You have yet to show a scripture saying we go to heaven.
    I provide 2 that say we don't; John 3:13, John 17:15
     
  3. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    John 3:13 is simply confirming the deity of Christ. Whose meaning is, that no man had, or could go up to heaven, to bring from thence the knowledge of divine and heavenly things. Once we have our resurrected bodies at first resurrection, we will be able to dwell with God in heaven.

    John 17:15 works off of John 17:14. They are in the world but not of it. They still had work to do in spreading the Gospel, thus Paul traveling all over the world.

    Having angels gather us from all around the world, and meeting the Lord in the clouds in the air is rapture. If we're not on the ground keras, then we have been taken..

    Matt 24:31 ESV And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Matt 24:40-41 NIV Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

    1 Thess 4:17 NIV After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
     
  4. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Once we have our resurrected bodies at first resurrection, we will be able to dwell with God in heaven. Quote ATP

    Why? Jesus will be reigning on earth then.
    There is actually no sense in a rapture to heaven. We are earth people, we have tasks to do here
    Get over it; the rapture theory is a delusion, a Satanic lie that makes people become complacent and consequently unable to comprehend God's plans for His people. To be His witnesses and to be a light to the nations ON EARTH. Isaiah 49:8

    Eventually God Himself and therefore heaven, will dwell on earth. Revelation 21:3
     
  5. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    No, Jesus will be reigning on the Day of Atonement, not the Feast of Trumpets.
    You say there is no sense in rapture, but God disagrees.
    The Word of God says we will be in the air with the Lord.
    Do you believe the Bible is 100% true.

    Matt 24:31 ESV And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Matt 24:40-41 NIV Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

    1 Thess 4:17 NIV After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
     
  6. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    1 Thess 4:17 says; we will be with the Lord forever.
    Tell me where the Lord is coming to and will be forever.

    Now, perhaps you would like to discuss the OP, because you are going to experience the Day of His wrath, along with everyone else alive on that Day.
    This is why I posted the OP, we shouldn't be in the dark about God's plans, He promises protection for all who call upon His Name.
     
  7. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    Being caught up in the clouds, meeting the Lord in the air. Clouds and air keras. Meaning that we will not be on the ground. Air is opposite of ground. Do you understand..

    1 Thess 4:17 NIV After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
     
  8. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    So you plan to remain in the clouds forever?
    I suggest you give up your foolish notions and try to understand what the Bible does say God's plans for His people really are. Read Psalm 91 for starters.

    I Shall set My Laws in your hearts Hebrews 8:10
    This verse from the New Testament, is a quote from the O.T. –
    Jeremiah 31:31-34…The days are coming when I shall set My Laws within them, writing them on their hearts…
    Church teaching says we are now under the New Covenant, the Old is obsolete: Hebrews 8:13. However, it is fairly obvious that this prophecy of how God’s Laws will be set into our hearts has not yet been fulfilled. The great prophecies in Ezekiel chapters 20, 36 and 37 tell us when, how and why this will happen.

    Ezekiel 20:39-44 Now, you Israelites, go and serve your idols. [In exile, as at present.] But in days to come, I shall punish you for your disobedience to Me and no more will you desecrate My holy Name with your idolatries. But after I have gathered you back to the Land of Israel, you will serve Me and the nations will witness it. You will know that I am the Lord, [BEFORE the Return of Jesus, Ezekiel 34:30] when I bring you back to the Land that I swore to give to your forefathers and you will despise your old evil ways and follow only My Commandments. You will know that the Lord has done this for you, not for your sake, but for the honour of His holy Name.
    Ezekiel 36:1-7…the enemy boasts: The ancient heights of Israel are ours. [the current situation] Therefore the Lord says: The mountains of Israel, now occupied by other peoples and plundered and despoiled by them, so I will act in the heat of My anger against those Edomic peoples who have seized My Land as spoil. [Edom: the descendants of Esau, now mostly the Islamic peoples.] Jer. 12:14, Ezekiel 30:2-5
    This will be the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, an event comprehensively prophesied throughout the Bible – a literal Day of fire from the heavens, earthquakes, tsunamis and powerful storms. All of the world will be affected, but the full force of this disaster will hit the Middle East, virtually depopulating the entire area.

    These are the great promises of our redemption and the Second Exodus:
    Ezekiel 37:11-14 The Lord said: These bones are the whole people of Israel, [all 12 tribes] They say: Our bones are dry, [spiritually bereft] our hope is gone [Acts 26:6-7] and we are cut off. [exiled from the holy Land] Prophesy, therefore, the Lord God has said: My people, I shall bring you out of your graves, [your dead spiritual condition] I shall put My spirit into you, redeem and purify you, then I shall settle you back into your own land. Ezekiel 30:11-26, Ezekiel 20:34-38
    Ezekiel 36:24-28 The Lord says: I am going to take the Israelites from their places of exile among the nations, I shall assemble them from every location and restore them to their homeland. I shall purify them from everything that defiles them, give them a new heart and put a new spirit within them. I shall place My spirit in My people, they will conform to My statutes and observe My Laws faithfully.
    THEN they will live in the holy Land that I gave to their forefathers, they will be My people and I will be their God. Isaiah 35:10
    So, the sequence of events are: first, the great Day of the Lord’s wrath, next His people are gathered and purified, then they are settled into all of the holy Land.
    Ref: REB. Some verses abridged.
     
  9. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    You had said rapture is false, but if we're up in the clouds with the Lord I guess it isn't false.
     
  10. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    I am not saying that the meet and greet of Jesus at His Return is false, what it ISN'T is a rapture to heaven. Realize that we Christians ARE Israelites.

    The Rapture Cult believes that Jesus failed in His stated mission to redeem Israel, but they follow in the Roman Catholic error that believes that when “Israel” rejected Jesus, He went to Plan B, and created a second body comprised of people who did believe in Him. Further, they seek to vitiate the fact that they deny Christ has already saved Israel by asserting that He will yet keep His promise – but only after He comes back invisibly for the Plan B body, which they’ve dubbed the “Church.”
    The Cult That Kidnapped Christianity now tells us that all those unfortunate sheep who migrated to the modern state headquartered in Tel Aviv, those millions who have already lived and died, are a further testament to His failure to keep His promise. The Rapture Cult tells us that Christ will bless the so called “Church” – who they adamantly insist can’t possibly be identified with Israel – and He will evacuate this body which has denied He has already redeemed Israel, before He keeps His promise to redeem the “real” Israel, a promise supposedly kept through casting the physical Jews into Great Tribulation, and coercing them to receive His Son through persecution.

    Meanwhile, this “Church” denies Christ and the Father on a daily basis, as they deny the record that God gave of His Son – a record that flatly states the identity of Christ is He who gives His life for the sheep, rescues them from eternal darkness, and reconfigures the Potter’s Clay into a vessel of honour – a momentous deed He has clearly accomplished.
    Duane Stewart
     
  11. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    The Rapture and Replacement theology are two difference subjects.

    I myself believe that Jesus will keep his word, and the church does not replace Israel.

    If you believe that Christians will be here during God's 3.5 year wrath,

    then you would have to prove that the sixth seal is open at end trib, and not before.
     
  12. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    ATP, the Church, that is all righteous individual believers ARE Israel. The NT makes that clear; Ephesians 2:11-18, Romans 9:6

    The Sixth Seal is the next prophesied event. It is our test; 1 Cor. 3:13-15

    During the 3.5 year period of the Great Trib, the 'woman' that is; righteous Israel, will be taken to a place of safety on earth. Rev 12 You could construe that as a rapture if you must.
     
  13. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    The church is not the remnant of Israel. Some of the remnant still remains in unbelief, probably the majority. The rapture of the church and Israel being taken to a place of safety for 1260 days are two different events. Otherwise I would have to move to Israel. Rev 12 is mid trib where the sixth seal will be open. That was my belief in the beginning. Rapture of the church, not Israel will occur at mid-trib right before the antichrist is revealed and before God's wrath. we agree?
     
  14. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    No, I do not agree with any rapture to heaven. What happens in Rev. 12 at the mid trib, is protection for those righteous people, on earth.

    Because we have a different view of what the next prophesied event will be and how the last Days will unfold, let alone who exactly who are the Lord's people, then it makes it hard to discuss these things.
    Regarding the Church and Israel; Jesus makes it clear, there is only one people of God. John 10:16, John 17:22-23, 1 Cor. 1:13
    Also, maybe you don't realise that the Jewish people are only 2/12ths of all Israel and they are all still scattered among the nations, as many as the sands of the sea. Except for the few million Jews in Israel.
    However I am glad you have persevered with me as any discussion is better that withdrawal and silence. You have a good attitude, as opposed to some others I have encountered on this forum.
     
  15. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    So if we're not raptured to the third heaven then we're just hanging out in the clouds? 1 Thess 4:14-17 NIV. I guess there's rooms inside the clouds? :rolleyes:

    John 14:1-4 NIV "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."
     
  16. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    We are just not given enough information to be sure what Paul meant in that 'harparzo'. It may have something to do with the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, during the extra 30 days that Daniel 12:11 mentions. What it is NOT, is a removal to heaven.

    Re John 14:1-4, You raptureists love to trot that one out! Too bad it actually works against your theory; Where Jesus is going to be, is on earth!
    I see the 'rooms. places, mansions', as referring to the eventual New Jerusalem that will come down to earth at the end of the Millennium. Rev 21:10
     
  17. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    But if we're in the clouds we are not on earth. It goes against the laws of gravity or physics or something. I am going there, going where? To the third heaven. Jesus is going there and coming back to earth. In order to come back He has to be in a place that is not on earth.

    John 14:1-4 NIV "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."
     
  18. DPMartin

    DPMartin Well-Known Member

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    If you read the last chapter of Zachariah you will understand. The mount of olives is going to explode into a valley, there are more then one scriptures saying so. When Jesus left the apostles it was on the mount of olives of which the two that were dressed in white said He would return to that very spot. It is said that a nuke is hidden in the mount of olives called Samson. And the last chapter of Zachariah states that what happens next is just as if a nuke war was to brake out. And if everyone presses the button or even just Russia and their lunatic Islamic friends in response to that then surly the o zone with be decimated. Also if that much material is lifted into the sky it will be dark for quit some time in Israel. No night no day discernable, also when you read thunder and lighting, instead of lighting and thunder it’s talking about a volcanic event. First is the sound of the eruption then the lighting from the static material spent into the atmosphere.
     
  19. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    But the Feast of Trumpets isn't the Day of Atonement. Two different time frames there.
     
  20. Barrd

    Barrd His Humble Servant

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    I have an idea.
    How about we trust in our God to protect us from the wrath to come?
    I tend to agree with Keras...I seriously do not expect to be raptured out of here before that "great and terrible day". Christians are suffering, even as we sit here calmly discussing...thrown into prisons...not like US prisons, little 'home away from home' type prisons...but real prisons...they are being tortured, and even killed for their faith. God does not seem to be taking them out of these troubles. Christians in the Western world, and particularly in the United States have been God's spoiled kids...but the Western world, including the United States, is abandoning the God of our youth...
    There is a heart-rending story in "Voice of the Martyrs"...actually they are all heart-rending stories, but this one really hit me hard...it involves a little girl and her mother, both thrown into prison for their Christian faith. For the sake of her child, the mother recanted, and they were both released...but the child told her Momma "Jesus is not pleased with you."
    I believe that days are coming very soon when we will all need the faith of a little child...
     
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