The Wrath of the Lord

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Barrd

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
For those that believe, the Second Coming is a sweet event - if you're lucky enough to be alive when it comes... most of us won't make it.

But here's the good news! You don't have to "make it" to the end to make it into Heaven! Just keep the faith, remain steadfast, and endure patiently.

To those who don't believe, Jesus' Second Coming will be shock, but for most of them, it will not be the end of them either... oh no. God's Wrath takes time and it is a dish meant to have them suffer who made us suffer so. Our Lord will avenge us; He will fight for us. We are but children in all this, and best kept that way.
His will be done.

But I wish He'd hurry!! People are suffering, Lord! We need You!
 

keras

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I believe "there is only one Day of the Lord?" Tell me smart guy: Where does the Bible point to multiple Days of the Lord? Give us the verse! Where does the Bible ever say that Jesus fights on the plains on Ephraim, by Har Meggido, on the Day of the Lord? Spit out the chapter and verse or go home.​ Quote Marcus.

Marcus believes there is only one Day of the Lord. He is wrong, because there is the Day of the Lord's wrath; that is the Sixth seal, then 10 chapters later there is the Great Day of God Almighty at Armageddon and the Return.​ Quote Keras.

Revelation undeniably states two Days of the Lord. Rev 6:17, then Rev 16:14 Two separate Days, each for specific purposes and years apart.
Why not two Days? There have been Days before that the Lord has acted and also the Gog/Magog destruction is referred to as another Day of the Lord. Ezekiel 39:8 Only those with an agenda of confusion try to shove all that must happen into one great event.
 

Barrd

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keras said:
I believe "there is only one Day of the Lord?" Tell me smart guy: Where does the Bible point to multiple Days of the Lord? Give us the verse! Where does the Bible ever say that Jesus fights on the plains on Ephraim, by Har Meggido, on the Day of the Lord? Spit out the chapter and verse or go home.​ Quote Marcus.

Marcus believes there is only one Day of the Lord. He is wrong, because there is the Day of the Lord's wrath; that is the Sixth seal, then 10 chapters later there is the Great Day of God Almighty at Armageddon and the Return.​ Quote Keras.

Revelation undeniably states two Days of the Lord. Rev 6:17, then Rev 16:14 Two separate Days, each for specific purposes and years apart.
Why not two Days? There have been Days before that the Lord has acted and also the Gog/Magog destruction is referred to as another Day of the Lord. Ezekiel 39:8 Only those with an agenda of confusion try to shove all that must happen into one great event.
Keras, for all anyone knows, you could both be wrong.
Loads of people have made these predictions...and they have been wrong.
Neither one of you should be berating the other. Both of you should be working out your salvation in fear and trembling.
Because....
Whether it is one day or ten, or whether it is tomorrow or a thousand years from now, that time is coming. And you will face a very real God.
And you will give an answer for every careless word you have allowed out of your mouth...yes, including the nonsense you type in forums like this one.

Please, guys...this old grandmother is asking you...
Disagree all you want.
But shelve the personal attacks.
Thank you.
 
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Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
Revelation undeniably states two Days of the Lord. Rev 6:17, then Rev 16:14 Two separate Days, each for specific purposes and years apart.
Why not two Days? There have been Days before that the Lord has acted and also the Gog/Magog destruction is referred to as another Day of the Lord. Ezekiel 39:8 Only those with an agenda of confusion try to shove all that must happen into one great event.
Revelation 6:17 is NOT EXACTLY when the Day of the Lord's Wrath comes!
Read carefully!
Neither God, Jesus, nor John is saying this is then God's Wrath descends upon the earth!
That does not happen until after all seven Seals have been broken, the Scroll is opened, and the first Trumpet sounds!
Who is it that makes this call? The wicked... Are they reputable witnesses? No.
Not only do they not "get" God, they don't get God "right", nor do they have a clue what God is about to do!
They are worried about their own skin because from a parallel account, three Angels warned the world about what was going to befall them.

Rev 6:12-14 does not say explicitly that is it the Day of the Lord - howevercomma! - it does specify the sign of the Day of the Lord.
Now, the sixth Seal does include the precursor sign to the Day of the Lord, and I think the 144,000's gathering and sealing is one of the things which happens on the Day of the Lord.
- And the subsequent Great Multitude showing up in Heaven is a direct result of the gathering of the Elect from Mt 24:31 - which also happens on the Day of the Lord as per Paul in 2Th 2.

Rev 16:14 is never identified as the Day of the Lord!
It is the Great Day of God the Almighty. Words mean things.
This Day comes years after the gathering which Jesus does from the clouds in Revelation 14:14-16 which matches Mt 24:31 which results in the Great Multitude of Rev 7:9-17 being delivered to the "barn" of Heaven.

Beware false teachers.
 

keras

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May I suggest that YOU read carefully, Marcus.
Revelation 6:15 The kings of the earth, the nobles and commanders, the rich and the powerful and all men, slave or free hid themselves in caves and under mountain cliffs.
This verse covers everyone on earth, as confirmed by Luke 21:35….that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.
So it isn’t just the wicked who will say: The great Day of the Lord has come…..
I will say it, you will say it, Obama will say it, EVERYBODY will say and know that what is happening IS the Day of the Lord’s wrath.

Your notion that Rev 16:14 isn’t a Day of the Lord, is against common sense and the literal reading of scripture.

Yes: everybody beware of false teachers!
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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On the Day of the Lord, we are gathered up. We who are left, are not hiding in caves. So much for "EVERYBODY".

Secondly, in the parallel account to the Seal/Scroll Chronicle, the Day of the Lord is depicted in Revelation chapter 14, and right after we are taken up in vv. 14-16, God's Wrath begins - on the very same Day... just NOT when the wicked are expecting it.

Much later, after the Trumpets have ALL sounded, comes the battle at Armageddon. We are not here for that. The last day of the one 'seven' is NOT the Day of the Lord.

How's that bloodmoon working out for you so far? Ready to leave the earth there teacher?
 

keras

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On the Day of the Lord, we are gathered up. We who are left, are not hiding in caves. So much for "EVERYBODY".

Secondly, in the parallel account to the Seal/Scroll Chronicle, the Day of the Lord is depicted in Revelation chapter 14, and right after we are taken up in vv. 14-16, God's Wrath begins - on the very same Day... just NOT when the wicked are expecting it.

Much later, after the Trumpets have ALL sounded, comes the battle at Armageddon. We are not here for that. The last day of the one 'seven' is NOT the Day of the Lord.

How's that bloodmoon working out for you so far? Ready to leave the earth there teacher?
A rapture removal at the Day of the Lord's wrath is nowhere in scripture. We are told to call out to the Lord for protection.
Your false notion of not experiencing this terrible event is refuted by 1 Thess 5:4...that Day will not come upon you like a thief.... This just says we will know about it, not that we won't be here. It WILL come upon you and dozens of verses say how the Lord will protect His own. Isaiah 43:2, Psalm 9:10, Jeremiah 17:7-8, Joel 3:16 plus.
So, basically we cannot come to any consensus while you remain stuck in the un-Biblical theory of a rapture removal of anyone at anytime.

Re the blood moons. I assume you are thinking of those tetrads? I totally refute the notion that they are significant. They are merely an interesting phenomena.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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The Barrd said:
Okay, now I'm curious. Marcus, do you believe in a "rapture"?
Yes. It is written in Bible prophecy in several places. Jesus taught it. Paul wrote about it, and John saw it take place from his vantage point when he was transported to Heaven.

Jesus taught that it happened on the Last Day [John 6:39, 40, 44 & 54]. (Many people teach in error that no days can come after this, but they misinterpret based on their own straitjacket definition of "last" as 100% absolute.)

Martha knew the Dead in Christ would rise on the Last Day [John 11:24]

The Last Day is also the "unknown Day" of His Return, and that is what Paul taught in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 where he puts Jesus' paraousia and our being gathered to Him (1-2 in that order) together.


Now I can say that because of the Olivet Discourse where Jesus details His Return.

He says that He will return after the sun/moon/star event [Mt 24:29] - that precedes the Day of the Lord [Joel 2:31] - which abruptly ends the time of the Great Tribulation [Mt 24:22] I think we will experience.

Jesus said that He will come with the Sign of the Son of Man [Mt 24:30], which is a euphemism that He used to refer to Himself.

WHEN He Returns - He subsequently gathers us up! [Mt 24:31] This is commonly called the "Rapture", which is the Latin for rapio (because the RCC used Latin to convey the Bible for so many centuries) for the Greek word: harpazo, which Paul used which means: to seize, to catch up, to snatch away. There are other rapture verbs used in the Bible as well, but this is where rapio comes from that we get our word: rapture. (Being a good student, I can give you a list of the other verbs if you like.)

Likewise, in talking about when He would Return, Jesus calls this Day the unknown Day [Mt 24:42]. So we can call the Day of the Lord the unknown Day as well. This has ties to Rosh ha-Shannah, a "Festival" or "appointed time" (with God). (I might suggest that if you have an appointment with God, that you keep it! LOL)

Now - unlike what Keras teaches, which is why I warn to watch out for false teachers - we can peg our Rapture to the Day of the Lord.

Not only do we have the evidence for it in the Olivet Discourse, but the sun/moon/star event also happens when the sixth Seal is broken by Jesus.

Subsequent to that (and the 144,000) - we see a Great Multitude arrive suddenly in Heaven! I put it to you that John sees the result of the Rapture. AND it happens 1-2 fashion - ON the Day of the Lord.

Furthermore, to add weight to this evidence being concluded it is linked to Mt 24:29-31 in the Olivet Discourse, no less an authority than an Elder tells John that the Great Multitude comes out of the Great Tribulation! Revl 6:12-14 & 7:9-17 are another view of Mt 24:29-31. This is called a multiple account where the same event is seen from another vantage point.

We can link the Rapture to the Day of the Lord based on these two witnesses - unlike what Keras says. Beware false teachers.

However, there is more.

In a parallel account to the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (parallel because they are in the same book by the same author) - John sees yet another vision of the "end times" and here we get the same image of Christ Jesus coming on the clouds, gathering the harvest (another analogy of the Rapture) in Revelation 14:14-16.

Notice here that it follows the rising of the 144,000 - and immediately afterward - comes God's Wrath in Revelation 14:17 when another Angel takes the other "grapes" and puts them in the winepress.

Rescue then Wrath. The story of Noah and Lot. That is the lesson of the Day of the Lord.

I put it to you as my conclusion, that the Day of the Lord begins with the sixth Seal and concludes 24 hours later (at sundown) with the first Trumpet. When this Day is over, you can see our Lord returning to Heaven in Isaiah 63:

4 It was for me the day of vengeance;
the year for me to redeem had come.


Notice upon His return to Heaven that the redemption had come. He removes us first to the safety of the barn of Heaven and then the tares are burned in the field of this earth. (Do not confuse their ultimate removal from God's Kingdom which encompasses both earth and the spiritual world of the hereafter and mix up the order. Ultimately at the second Resurrection, the wicked are done away with entirely before we go to the New Jerusalem.)
 

Wormwood

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In my estimation, the church is the bride of Christ. I think its wrong to try to stretch imagery and metaphor and make them substantive of the Church. Just because Jesus declares the disciples, "friends of the bridegroom" does not mean that a different illustration elsewhere cannot be used to describe the church, namely, the bride of Christ. That is like saying, "The church cant be "friends of the bridegroom" because the church is described as the "temple of the Holy Spirit." Of course both images can describe the same thing.....and they do. Each metaphor is communicating an idea and different metaphors can be used to describe the church in different contexts.

In Revelation, we see this continual theme of those who follow Jesus are "dressed in white." The imagery of Revelation of the bride reflects the righteousness of God revealed in his people in the end. This righteousness comes from heaven and is not from us. The imagery also reflects the fact that the dwelling God's people look forward to is a heavenly city and their hope is not based in the things of this earth that are passing away. Yet, make no mistake, the city is the people, not the structures. John is describing the beauty of the Church and our eternal dwelling with God.
 

Barrd

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Wormwood said:
In my estimation, the church is the bride of Christ. I think its wrong to try to stretch imagery and metaphor and make them substantive of the Church. Just because Jesus declares the disciples, "friends of the bridegroom" does not mean that a different illustration elsewhere cannot be used to describe the church, namely, the bride of Christ. That is like saying, "The church cant be "friends of the bridegroom" because the church is described as the "temple of the Holy Spirit." Of course both images can describe the same thing.....and they do. Each metaphor is communicating an idea and different metaphors can be used to describe the church in different contexts.

In Revelation, we see this continual theme of those who follow Jesus are "dressed in white." The imagery of Revelation of the bride reflects the righteousness of God revealed in his people in the end. This righteousness comes from heaven and is not from us. The imagery also reflects the fact that the dwelling God's people look forward to is a heavenly city and their hope is not based in the things of this earth that are passing away. Yet, make no mistake, the city is the people, not the structures. John is describing the beauty of the Church and our eternal dwelling with God.
Beautifully put, Wormwood.
Thank you for posting this.
 

Barrd

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
Yes. It is written in Bible prophecy in several places. Jesus taught it. Paul wrote about it, and John saw it take place from his vantage point when he was transported to Heaven.

Jesus taught that it happened on the Last Day [John 6:39, 40, 44 & 54]. (Many people teach in error that no days can come after this, but they misinterpret based on their own straitjacket definition of "last" as 100% absolute.)

Martha knew the Dead in Christ would rise on the Last Day [John 11:24]

The Last Day is also the "unknown Day" of His Return, and that is what Paul taught in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 where he puts Jesus' paraousia and our being gathered to Him (1-2 in that order) together.


Now I can say that because of the Olivet Discourse where Jesus details His Return.

He says that He will return after the sun/moon/star event [Mt 24:29] - that precedes the Day of the Lord [Joel 2:31] - which abruptly ends the time of the Great Tribulation [Mt 24:22] I think we will experience.

Jesus said that He will come with the Sign of the Son of Man [Mt 24:30], which is a euphemism that He used to refer to Himself.

WHEN He Returns - He subsequently gathers us up! [Mt 24:31] This is commonly called the "Rapture", which is the Latin for rapio (because the RCC used Latin to convey the Bible for so many centuries) for the Greek word: harpazo, which Paul used which means: to seize, to catch up, to snatch away. There are other rapture verbs used in the Bible as well, but this is where rapio comes from that we get our word: rapture. (Being a good student, I can give you a list of the other verbs if you like.)

Likewise, in talking about when He would Return, Jesus calls this Day the unknown Day [Mt 24:42]. So we can call the Day of the Lord the unknown Day as well. This has ties to Rosh ha-Shannah, a "Festival" or "appointed time" (with God). (I might suggest that if you have an appointment with God, that you keep it! LOL)

Now - unlike what Keras teaches, which is why I warn to watch out for false teachers - we can peg our Rapture to the Day of the Lord.

Not only do we have the evidence for it in the Olivet Discourse, but the sun/moon/star event also happens when the sixth Seal is broken by Jesus.

Subsequent to that (and the 144,000) - we see a Great Multitude arrive suddenly in Heaven! I put it to you that John sees the result of the Rapture. AND it happens 1-2 fashion - ON the Day of the Lord.

Furthermore, to add weight to this evidence being concluded it is linked to Mt 24:29-31 in the Olivet Discourse, no less an authority than an Elder tells John that the Great Multitude comes out of the Great Tribulation! Revl 6:12-14 & 7:9-17 are another view of Mt 24:29-31. This is called a multiple account where the same event is seen from another vantage point.

We can link the Rapture to the Day of the Lord based on these two witnesses - unlike what Keras says. Beware false teachers.

However, there is more.

In a parallel account to the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (parallel because they are in the same book by the same author) - John sees yet another vision of the "end times" and here we get the same image of Christ Jesus coming on the clouds, gathering the harvest (another analogy of the Rapture) in Revelation 14:14-16.

Notice here that it follows the rising of the 144,000 - and immediately afterward - comes God's Wrath in Revelation 14:17 when another Angel takes the other "grapes" and puts them in the winepress.

Rescue then Wrath. The story of Noah and Lot. That is the lesson of the Day of the Lord.

I put it to you as my conclusion, that the Day of the Lord begins with the sixth Seal and concludes 24 hours later (at sundown) with the first Trumpet. When this Day is over, you can see our Lord returning to Heaven in Isaiah 63:

4 It was for me the day of vengeance;
the year for me to redeem had come.


Notice upon His return to Heaven that the redemption had come. He removes us first to the safety of the barn of Heaven and then the tares are burned in the field of this earth. (Do not confuse their ultimate removal from God's Kingdom which encompasses both earth and the spiritual world of the hereafter and mix up the order. Ultimately at the second Resurrection, the wicked are done away with entirely before we go to the New Jerusalem.)
I have a couple of questions for you, Marcus.
Suppose, just for a half of a second, that you are wrong, and there actually is no rapture?
First of all, how would you know? I mean, many Christians are going through severe persecution right now...and Heaven knows, Israel is a war zone, with Muslims and Jews at each other's throats.
And second...if you find that you must suffer for your faith...no rescue...would you then turn your back on Jesus?

These are hard questions, I know....
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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The Barrd said:
I have a couple of questions for you, Marcus.
Suppose, just for a half of a second, that you are wrong, and there actually is no rapture?
First of all, how would you know? I mean, many Christians are going through severe persecution right now...and Heaven knows, Israel is a war zone, with Muslims and Jews at each other's throats.
And second...if you find that you must suffer for your faith...no rescue...would you then turn your back on Jesus?

These are hard questions, I know....
1. No rapture? Then please explain to me the mentions of it in the following verses:

• MT 24:31 to come upon, come after
• MT 24:40 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• MK 13:27 to come upon, come after
• MK 16:19 to carry up
• LK 9:51 a taking up: ascension
• LK 17:34-35 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• LK 24:51 to take up, raise
• JN 14:3 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• 1CO 15:51-54 to change
• 2CO 4:14 to waken, to raise up
• 2CO 12:2-4 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away
• 1TH 4:16-17 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away
• 2TI 2:18 (resurrection) a standing up, a raising up, rising
• 1TI 3:16 to take up, raise
• HEB 11:5 to transfer, change

So this "belief" of mine is not without merit, however, there are a lot of folk who have all kinds of ideas and eschatology is home to too many crackpot theories.

2. How would I know if something never happens? I wouldn't... this is a ridiculous question; it's like trying to prove a negative - you can't do it!

3. There are explicit warnings in the Bible by Jesus to keep the faith, to endure patiently, and remain steadfast. I am not a "once-saved-always-saved" zealot because IF you take the "mark of the beast" - the Bible says you will NOT go to Heaven!

So I find your third question slightly offensive. First century Christians went to their death willingly in order to attain the martyr's Crown, and that was before they had even termed the word 'martyr'.

Furthermore, the whole theme of my writing is in line with hupomeno - which means to endure patiently, remain steadfast, and keep the faith.

Just so we understand each other.

And if you think it's bad now, I've got news for you - it's going to get worse. Hold onto the rock or you'll sink.
 

Barrd

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
1. No rapture? Then please explain to me the mentions of it in the following verses:

• MT 24:31 to come upon, come after
• MT 24:40 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• MK 13:27 to come upon, come after
• MK 16:19 to carry up
• LK 9:51 a taking up: ascension
• LK 17:34-35 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• LK 24:51 to take up, raise
• JN 14:3 to take over, to receive, to inherit
• 1CO 15:51-54 to change
• 2CO 4:14 to waken, to raise up
• 2CO 12:2-4 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away
• 1TH 4:16-17 to seize, to catch up, to snatch away
• 2TI 2:18 (resurrection) a standing up, a raising up, rising
• 1TI 3:16 to take up, raise
• HEB 11:5 to transfer, change

So this "belief" of mine is not without merit, however, there are a lot of folk who have all kinds of ideas and eschatology is home to too many crackpot theories.

2. How would I know if something never happens? I wouldn't... this is a ridiculous question; it's like trying to prove a negative - you can't do it!

3. There are explicit warnings in the Bible by Jesus to keep the faith, to endure patiently, and remain steadfast. I am not a "once-saved-always-saved" zealot because IF you take the "mark of the beast" - the Bible says you will NOT go to Heaven!

So I find your third question slightly offensive. First century Christians went to their death willingly in order to attain the martyr's Crown, and that was before they had even termed the word 'martyr'.

Furthermore, the whole theme of my writing is in line with hupomeno - which means to endure patiently, remain steadfast, and keep the faith.

Just so we understand each other.

And if you think it's bad now, I've got news for you - it's going to get worse. Hold onto the rock or you'll sink.
Perhaps I should have been more specific.
How would you know that the tribulation is actually happening?

And I've a new question...why are you so defensive about it? Is it so important to believe in a rapture? Isn't it enough to believe in Jesus Christ? Isn't it enough to leave these things in His hands?

Isn't it kinda silly to spend a lot of time arguing over stuff that hasn't happened yet?
 

Wormwood

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I think its important to define "rapture" in this context. If you are defining "rapture" as a sudden disappearance of the church while all the unbelievers of the world are left behind for a period of Tribulation, then that is quite different from a "rapture" concept that simply teaches that Christ will return and bring his people to himself and judge the wicked on that day. I think the verses you list describe the latter. I have yet to see a verse that teaches a secret rapture of the Church that causes the wicked to be "left behind," wondering why all the Christians mysteriously vanished.
 

Barrd

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Wormwood said:
I think its important to define "rapture" in this context. If you are defining "rapture" as a sudden disappearance of the church while all the unbelievers of the world are left behind for a period of Tribulation, then that is quite different from a "rapture" concept that simply teaches that Christ will return and bring his people to himself and judge the wicked on that day. I think the verses you list describe the latter. I have yet to see a verse that teaches a secret rapture of the Church that causes the wicked to be "left behind," wondering why all the Christians mysteriously vanished.
That's what I'm talking about, Wormwood....the idea that there is a "secret rapture", where the church is rescued from the last days, while the wicked are left behind. I do not believe in such a thing.
 

keras

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Wormwood said:
I think its important to define "rapture" in this context. If you are defining "rapture" as a sudden disappearance of the church while all the unbelievers of the world are left behind for a period of Tribulation, then that is quite different from a "rapture" concept that simply teaches that Christ will return and bring his people to himself and judge the wicked on that day. I think the verses you list describe the latter. I have yet to see a verse that teaches a secret rapture of the Church that causes the wicked to be "left behind," wondering why all the Christians mysteriously vanished.
Good common sense here.
I have pointed out with many verses how the Lord will provide protection, not removal, for His righteous people during the tough times ahead. This theme is throughout the Bible, even the famous Psalm 23 reiterates the Lord's protection and blessings for us on earth.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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Wormwood said:
I think its important to define "rapture" in this context. If you are defining "rapture" as a sudden disappearance of the church while all the unbelievers of the world are left behind for a period of Tribulation, then that is quite different from a "rapture" concept that simply teaches that Christ will return and bring his people to himself and judge the wicked on that day. I think the verses you list describe the latter. I have yet to see a verse that teaches a secret rapture of the Church that causes the wicked to be "left behind," wondering why all the Christians mysteriously vanished.
There is no secret Rapture. When Christ Jesus comes again, every eye will see Him.

Rev 1:7 Behold, HE is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Do you believe that verse or not? It's the truth because it's in the Bible.

And Jesus said:

Mt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Do you believe what Jesus said? He said He is coming on the clouds and Angels will gather together His Elect from every direction. There is it too, the gathering.

And Paul said this:

2Th 2:1 ...with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...

Paul also taught that we would be gathered together to Him. Remember what he taught the Thessalonians previously?

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul taught that Jesus would come (on the clouds) and that we would be caught up together with the Dead in Christ IN the clouds with Jesus!

Did you catch that "caught up"? That harpazo - the Rapture. Learn it, live it, love it.

Do you believe what Paul taught? Or are you going to believe Keras who is not from God?

Paul taught some more about eschatology even if his young in Christ listeners couldn't grasp it at first. (In his later letters, Paul keeps it simple for such simple folk.)

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, (or exchanged, allasso in the Greek carries such a double definition) 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Do you believe what Paul is saying about some of us? Death is NOT 100% certain for 100% of the Church! Some will never die! Do you believe that? It's in the Bible!

There is a Rapture - that is the physical manifestation where those who are still alive and are left AFTER the Great Tribulation - change, or more rightly so as is allowed by the Greek - exchange - their mortal, perishable bodies for immortal and imperishable ones when Jesus comes on the clouds and gathers us up.